There seems to be a clear dividing line drawn by the majority of the footballing fraternity, but especially fans, that fouling is ok (it’s a contact sport) but diving is frowned upon as serious cheating. To me both are cheating, with the physical more planned, I always knew a second or so before I committed a foul, whereas a dive is more spontaneous, well a good one is. A proper dive that is easy to spot, in other words, of poor quality, you can sometimes anticipate. Those are the ‘yellow card dives’.

It’s trying to con the officials that’s the issue. A good solid foul is at least cheating you know you’ll get punished for. A dive is cheating in order to get something you’re not entitled to.

I think much of the argument would be based around intent. It is possible to foul someone accidentally OR with intent, but it is not possible to accidentally dive, a dive is a dive however it is dressed up.

Diving is totally different - it's downright cheating to try and get a decision you are not entitled to and also trying on occasions to get opposition players carded, sometimes a red.

The highest level I ever played at was the dizzy heights of the Craven League over 30 years ago. I don't ever remember anyone diving - does that still apply at amateur levels? Do you have to be really good to attempt a dive that might look like you have been fouled? (I do remember an incredible amount of fouling of course!!!!)

Sometimes a foul is a good foul - it's part of the game. Diving when not even touched is cheating.

Why aren't the "tactical fouls" that Man City do a lot of, where they deliberately stop opponents breaking from their own half, downright cheating?

Tall Paul wrote:Why aren't the "tactical fouls" that Man City do a lot of, where they deliberately stop opponents breaking from their own half, downright cheating?

Because it's a physical/contact sport.

And it isn't just Man City who do this. Everybody does it - including Burnley.

Darnhill Claret wrote:There seems to be a clear dividing line drawn by the majority of the footballing fraternity, but especially fans, that fouling is ok (it’s a contact sport) but diving is frowned upon as serious cheating. To me both are cheating, with the physical more planned, I always knew a second or so before I committed a foul, whereas a dive is more spontaneous, well a good one is. A proper dive that is easy to spot, in other words, of poor quality, you can sometimes anticipate. Those are the ‘yellow card dives’.

A good question.

There are a few distinct differences between fouls and diving.

A deliberate foul should be considered cheating in the same way as a dive should be considered cheating. A deliberate foul should always result in a yellow card, no matter how trivial, because that is exactly what it is.

However, the difference between a deliberate foul and a dive is one of deceit. When you dive, you deliberately seek to deceive the referee. However, most of the deliberate fouls that occur are done openly and in the full knowledge that the referee will see the foul and penalize it accordingly.

So although the two should be treated similarly in terms of punishment, that is why the dive has more of an emotional impact and why there is more venom in the responses to it.

They're both deplorable and against both the rules and the spirit of the game but the authorities and establishment (by which I mean ex-pros, pundits and most media journalists) gave up trying to enforce the spirit of sportsmanship years ago. It's far easier for them to excuse diving (as we've notably seen Jermaine Jenas do this week) on tenuous grounds than it is for them to tackle and address it head on.

Interesting that in some people's eyes it's deceit that's the difference. Yet we all know there's cynical fouling that goes on all the time where the person committing the foul will claim they did nothing wrong. It's not unknown in situations like this for the perpetrator to even claim that the victim has dived. Part of this deceit is then carried forward as it's trying to subconsciously make the ref think that the victim is a diver and to think twice before awarding a free-kick in future.

I hate diving and it is incredibly frustrating that the authorities don't do more to stamp it out by using suspensions, but I don't think there's a moral difference between that and other cynical parts of football.

Im_not_Robbie_Blake wrote:The highest level I ever played at was the dizzy heights of the Craven League over 30 years ago. I don't ever remember anyone diving - does that still apply at amateur levels? Do you have to be really good to attempt a dive that might look like you have been fouled? (I do remember an incredible amount of fouling of course!!!!)

Burnley Combination 30 years ago. The centre forward stood in the area and when the ball was cleared he fell on the floor with an almighty Arghh.
The ref turned round and looked. I told the ref he had done this and he said, I thought you must have kicked him, but I couldn't give a penalty or send you off because I didn't see it.
The CF was kicked pillar to post for the rest of the game.

Darnhill Claret wrote:There seems to be a clear dividing line drawn by the majority of the footballing fraternity, but especially fans, that fouling is ok (it’s a contact sport) but diving is frowned upon as serious cheating. To me both are cheating, with the physical more planned, I always knew a second or so before I committed a foul, whereas a dive is more spontaneous, well a good one is. A proper dive that is easy to spot, in other words, of poor quality, you can sometimes anticipate. Those are the ‘yellow card dives’.

Diving is always deliberate - and often therefore can be worse. A lot of fouls will be accidents - poor timing etc but not deliberate....still fouls but back in the day not every foul was an automatic card like today as if you have followed football for a long time and played the game too you can tell which fouls were “unlucky” with no malice or wrecklessness involved. For me why is there a need to yellow card someone for a mistake (at least not every time).
Diving always deliberate and always cheating - unlike accidental fouls which would be impossible to cut out of the game give someone a red card for diving and it will disappear soon....or give a penalty to the other team.

This is a difficult one really but yes a deliberate foul is cheating but mostly it's done openly and can therefore be punished (or not as the ref sees it), and some fouls are NOT deliberate but can still be dangerous, but I think where most people draw the line is on the deceit matter. A foul is a foul and sometimes a player will 'take one for the team' and risk getting sent off but a clear foul can be dealt with. Diving is not done 'openly' and is a direct attempt to con the ref to gain an advantage, even to get a fellow professional sent off. Football is a contact sport and fouls will happen whether deliberate or not but diving is simply an underhand, deceitful act that, if successful, only cons the ref into giving something that should never be given. Diving is simply an attempt to influence a refereeing decision whereas I don't think a foul is because it is done 'openly'.

Diving has always happened (Franny Lee?) but never to the extent that it does now. It seems to have become somehow acceptable and, to coin a phrase, 'part of the game' but the game has become sadder for it I believe. If it is to be eradicated, which somehow I doubt will happen, it must start with the TV pundits calling it what it is, cheating, and stop using terms like simulation and saying 'he had a right to go down'. Of course if they call a player a cheat it won't be long before some idiot decides to sue them for calling him a nasty name - poor thing.

As other point out it's the level of cheating thats the issue

A dive, a foul or claiming for a throw-in knowing that it went out of play off them, can all be classed as cheating.

We'll be asking for yellow cards for claiming a throw-in next

wilks_bfc wrote:As other point out it's the level of cheating thats the issue

A dive, a foul or claiming for a throw-in knowing that it went out of play off them, can all be classed as cheating.

We'll be asking for yellow cards for claiming a throw-in next

Be careful what you wish for!

It depends what you define "openly" as. A dive is clearly an act of deceit, but with the right view it's still openly. What's the difference with the many shirt pulls that go on in every game? It's clearly a foul, clearly cheating but usually done in a way that the ref won't see it, so therefore not "openly".

In my opinion only a minority of fouls (given or not) are the type where it's cynical and the player knows he hasn't a hope in hell of getting away with it.

Diving is not always diving. These guys careers are at stake and many of them are trying to avoid the contact. Then, as with Saturday, the defender pulls his leg back and makes the forward look a fool/cheat.
Guendhouzi rugby tackled a CP player on Sunday and he was last man. It was in the CP half so he got away with it but he should have walked for denying the GSO.

Darnhill Claret wrote:There seems to be a clear dividing line drawn by the majority of the footballing fraternity, but especially fans, that fouling is ok (it’s a contact sport) but diving is frowned upon as serious cheating. To me both are cheating, with the physical more planned, I always knew a second or so before I committed a foul, whereas a dive is more spontaneous, well a good one is. A proper dive that is easy to spot, in other words, of poor quality, you can sometimes anticipate. Those are the ‘yellow card dives’.

By a strict interpretation deliberately kicking the ball out of play is also cheating.

I think most players and fans agree that deliberately committing a "foul" is cheating, whether it be a foul against one player (like a trip or shirt pulling) or a foul against a team (like a dive).

I think most players and fans agree that committing a foul against an opponent and diving are two entirely different things.

randomclaret2 wrote:I think most players and fans agree that committing a foul against an opponent and diving are two entirely different things.

I think most players and fans agree that deliberately doing something that is against the rules is considered "cheating".

randomclaret2 wrote:I think most players and fans agree that committing a foul against an opponent and diving are two entirely different things.

Not really.

If I can remember rightly. In one of our home games against Blackburn (before we ended the wait for the win) I’m pretty sure (Ings maybe) someone was through on goal about 25/30yds out or so. The lastBlackburn player cleaned him out and was sent off.

Play is then resumed (ok Blackburn were down to 10 men) but now we had a freekick from where the foul was committed but instead of having a player with basically a clear run and shot at goal, Blackburn had the remaining outfield players in the space where minutes earlier there were none.

That to me is the defenders equivalent to diving attackers.

Tricky Trevor wrote: Guendhouzi rugby tackled a CP player on Sunday and he was last man. It was in the CP half so he got away with it but he should have walked for denying the GSO.

Stopping a promising attack - yellow card - Yes
Denying an OBVIOUS goal scoring opportunity - red - No

PS last man is irrelevant and not in the laws of the game.

dpinsussex wrote:Stopping a promising attack - yellow card - Yes
Denying an OBVIOUS goal scoring opportunity - red - No

PS last man is irrelevant and not in the laws of the game.

As there wasn’t an Arsenal player within 10yds it was obvious to my mind.

Tricky Trevor wrote:As there wasn’t an Arsenal player within 10yds it was obvious to my mind.

I would agree. It happened with a Southampton player last year, and one of the ref experts in the studio agreed with the ref on the field that as the forward had 70 yards to go, you couldn't issue a red card on the grounds that "a lot could happen". Regardless of the fact that the only things to stop him getting to the other end were him falling over (or a bullet from the stands). I reckon they ought to be able to assume that a footballer can run 70 yards without falling over!

Tricky Trevor wrote:As there wasn’t an Arsenal player within 10yds it was obvious to my mind.

DOGSO must consider CDDD and tick ALL 4 boxes.

Control of the ball
Direction of play
Distance from goal
Defenders in the immediate vicinity.

Only 3 of those boxes can be ticked and therefore this is not a dogso offence.

Imploding Turtle wrote:I think most players and fans agree that deliberately doing something that is against the rules is considered "cheating".

Not really. It's a contact sport and one played with a certain amount of aggression that will occasionally spill over into foul play simply because of adrenalin. Diving has no such excuse other than an attempt to 'cheat' the ref into giving them an advantage. Football can handle fouls, it always has and always will and is accepted as being the result of 'aggressive' play by highly competitive individuals, in a way football wouldn't be the same without that level of aggression. I don't think anyone would miss the diving and cheating at all. I know fouls are 'illegal' in the game but men filled with adrenalin in a 'combative' team sport will have a tendency to get a little 'over-enthusiatic' at times, I don't believe diving can be said to be part of that.

Tricky Trevor wrote:Diving is not always diving. These guys careers are at stake and many of them are trying to avoid the contact. Then, as with Saturday, the defender pulls his leg back and makes the forward look a fool/cheat.
Guendhouzi rugby tackled a CP player on Sunday and he was last man. It was in the CP half so he got away with it but he should have walked for denying the GSO.

I disagree with it all!

Yes careers are at stake. However, to avoid a tackle is not a dive at all, it is just a get out of the way. A penalty is not even requested. If however, the getting out of the way is embellished in any way, it becomes a dive with intent.

'Many trying to avoid the contact'. Far from it, they take the opportunity for 'contact', unless it is some foot up lunge/slide through.

A tackle in an opponents half is not a goalscoring opportunity denied, although I know what you mean on that one.