Got stuck in the long tailback on M65 this morning-no problem **** happens-but what annoys me is wagon drivers who think they own the road and know better than every one else blocking the available lanes when the advice given in the Highway Code is to zip merge and use all the available lanes right up to the obstruction and merge-in in turn!

i was just on my way to Burnley from Accy at about 10 15, just managed to swing a right before the slip road and head back home, a lot of traffic heading into Accy as well, hope you got through it all eventually corporal.

Pet hate on motorways - drivers who when given 10 miles prior warning to merge coming up to a road works or incident decide they are too important to take note and don't do so until they get to the front - thus causing hold ups that wouldn't otherwise happen.

My absolute pet hate is when you approach a merger and cars stop to pull in....use the whole lane and merge without stopping!

houseboy wrote:Pet hate on motorways - drivers who when given 10 miles prior warning to merge coming up to a road works or incident decide they are too important to take note and don't do so until they get to the front - thus causing hold ups that wouldn't otherwise happen.

but thats the whole point-the official advice from the Highways Agency is to use all the lanes all the way and merge in turn.

corporal jones wrote:but thats the whole point-the official advice from the Highways Agency is to use all the lanes all the way and merge in turn.

That only works if people use common sense and don't try to get to the front - daft advice really because as we all know people will always want to 'win the race'. North Valley Road is the same in Colne. Heading away from the '65 you always get the d!ckheads trying to beat the queues by driving up the right turn only lane then trying to sneak in. R-souls.

The problem is your average British driver is too territorial and drives far too close to the vehicle in front. If drivers left enough room in front of them, zip merging would work perfectly.

I don’t get this obsession with queuing unnecessarily. I also wonder is people realise that if a queue is twice as long as it needs to be (because Steady Eddie is stopping people using the half mile left until the cone taper),that other roads that would otherwise be unaffected get gridlocked as well.

corporal jones wrote:Got stuck in the long tailback on M65 this morning-no problem **** happens-but what annoys me is wagon drivers who think they own the road and know better than every one else blocking the available lanes when the advice given in the Highway Code is to zip merge and use all the available lanes right up to the obstruction and merge-in in turn!

That is the most stupid advice ever. The rule is, merge early. This would then avoid anyone needing to stop to let in those who go right up to the cones before forcing their way in, thus creating the queue they think they are avoiding. The truck blocking that lane is actually speeding up the traffic. But we all know it’s more important that you get to the front rather than merge early.

RammyClaret61 wrote:That is the most stupid advice ever. The rule is, merge early. This would then avoid anyone needing to stop to let in those who go right up to the cones before forcing their way in, thus creating the queue they think they are avoiding. The truck blocking that lane is actually speeding up the traffic. But we all know it’s more important that you get to the front rather than merge early.

You're just making the queue longer by merging earlier, it's no faster. It is more efficient to use the whole road available and merge in turn (zip merge) to reduce the tailback.

Brits in general have a poor grasp of zip merging.

If everyone actually knew how to zip merge no one would stop moving to allow it to happen.

If both lanes are moving, then 'zip merging' as stated, would work.

However, on our roads, you join a queue of stationary traffic and remain stationary forever.

Why?

Because the tossers who think they can just carry on right to the cones and push in, ahead of the patient lane queuers!!!!!

I applaud the lorry drivers who hold up the traffic trying to beat the queue.

I do the blocking myself on occasion. It relies on the car behind to leave my gap (usually ok) and the idiots not to try and squeeze through gravel and other detritus, to get ahead. Some take huge risks for little purpose.

Anyone who blocks is a knob in my eyes (apologies IanMcL) logic and common sense dictate what deano posted above and if more people just slowed down and merged in turn there would be no need to block

Whilst I do think that zip merging can work this has to be used in conjunction with road signs and amount of traffic on the road.

Normally I join the inside lane early as that is the lane that you should be in at all times unless overtaking. I have at times due to the traffic on the road gone right to the end and have in turn merged. Sometimes it works pretty much as the gif above but most of the time someone has to slow down or even stop to let you in which as we know cause a concertina effect all the way back. Far better to find an opportune moment without making people brake earlier in my book but as king as it is safe who cares?

never even heard of that term, zip merging ? is it some daft americanism ?

Wile E Coyote wrote:never even heard of that term, zip merging ? is it some daft americanism ?

I believe it comes from New Zealand where there are road signs that say merge like a zip and you can be fined for not doing it.

Edit,
Just checked and it did originate in America, but signs are in New Zealand.

houseboy wrote:That only works if people use common sense and don't try to get to the front - daft advice really because as we all know people will always want to 'win the race'. North Valley Road is the same in Colne. Heading away from the '65 you always get the d!ckheads trying to beat the queues by driving up the right turn only lane then trying to sneak in. R-souls.

The traffic lights by the BMW showroom means that traffic has to stop, irrespective of what the Highway Code recommends, the right hand lane is marked for turning right for most of its length.

Rick_Muller wrote:Anyone who blocks is a knob in my eyes (apologies IanMcL) logic and common sense dictate what deano posted above and if more people just slowed down and merged in turn there would be no need to block

But if everyone merged well in advance, no one would need to slowdown for anyone. Traffic would flow almost normally. But there will always be knobs going to the cones thinking they’re clever and beating the queue, when I reality they’re causing it.

Edit: zip merging works really well in a graphic, get humans involved and you’ve no chance.

yorkyclaret wrote:The traffic lights by the BMW showroom means that traffic has to stop, irrespective of what the Highway Code recommends, the right hand lane is marked for turning right for most of its length.

You are right that RHS lane is intended for that purpose doesn’t stop people cutting in though if you leave gaps, the Highway Code in the main does make sense & I try to stick to it, you get some people religiously sticking to it without sometimes ignoring it & doing what’s practical in the given circumstances. That particular lane was being used as a shortcut for people not necessarily going into colne but wanting to join the LHS lane but couldn’t in heavy tailbacks & further on at the roundabout traffic lights were introduced due to that reason, the increased traffic using that route shortcutting albeit a longer route but saving time.

Wile E Coyote wrote:never even heard of that term, zip merging ? is it some daft americanism ?

I only popped into this thread because I have a knackered rucksack, I'd better leave just as quickly as I came.

Rick_Muller wrote:Anyone who blocks is a knob in my eyes (apologies IanMcL) logic and common sense dictate what deano posted above and if more people just slowed down and merged in turn there would be no need to block

I block when the traffic is static, not when both lanes are moving and merging, which is ideal. I refuse to sit in a lane and watch a thousand cars sail pass, while my lane doesn't move!

IanMcL wrote:I block when the traffic is static, not when both lanes are moving and merging, which is ideal. I refuse to sit in a lane and watch a thousand cars sail pass, while my lane doesn't move!

It's normal to do so, I watched the merge clip graphic on this thread, when on the road things are different & replicating what should happen & what doesn't happen doesn't mirror, people have targets to hit when driving, different levels of experience driver to driver, in today's driving there's no perfect way of driving. I've noticed when people get frustrated stuck in queues when I've had my window down I've smelt the aroma of cannabis & more & more drivers are sparking up spliffs driving is becoming that stressful.

IanMcL wrote:I block when the traffic is static, not when both lanes are moving and merging, which is ideal. I refuse to sit in a lane and watch a thousand cars sail pass, while my lane doesn't move!

That’s the problem though, I’ve experienced the extremes of both and in my opinion the traffic moves faster and better when it’s merge in turn and people do it slowly and carefully. All that happens when you get a stationary lane with people who then proceed to block is incite the need to get in front at all costs which then perpetuates the animosity and makes things worse. I’ve reported HGVs who have blocked the 2 outside lanes previously and on one occasion the police intervened and cautioned them as far as I know.

All it takes is a little consideration on all parts

corporal jones wrote:Got stuck in the long tailback on M65 this morning-no problem **** happens-but what annoys me is wagon drivers who think they own the road and know better than every one else blocking the available lanes when the advice given in the Highway Code is to zip merge and use all the available lanes right up to the obstruction and merge-in in turn!

I’d give an MBE to each and everyone of them.

A reduction in the difference in speeds between the two lanes: without the urgency to move over, the traffic is travelling at roughly the same speed in both lanes, making the merge easier and safer.

The length of queue is reduced by up to 50%, which is critical in areas where you find junctions and slip roads.

When nobody has a perceived advantage, the potential for ‘road rage’ is reduced significantly.

That's fine.
The reason why this does not work on the M6 /M5 is that often, the two lanes are not equal and travelling together. One is static and the other virtually empty...except for the cars who insist on gaining the half mile, at the expense of those there first.

There is no issue with moving traffic. It is a jam and jumping the queue, which has to be stopped.

When there is less traffic, the merging works fine.

Wile E Coyote wrote:never even heard of that term, zip merging ? is it some daft americanism ?

Its always a problem when some "Foreskin" jams the bloody system up though

yorkyclaret wrote:The traffic lights by the BMW showroom means that traffic has to stop, irrespective of what the Highway Code recommends, the right hand lane is marked for turning right for most of its length.

My point entirely bud. People driving up a clearly marked right hand lane only to try to push in at the front. Makes a bad situation even worse.

deanothedino wrote:You're just making the queue longer by merging earlier, it's no faster. It is more efficient to use the whole road available and merge in turn (zip merge) to reduce the tailback.

Brits in general have a poor grasp of zip merging.

If everyone actually knew how to zip merge no one would stop moving to allow it to happen.

As I said bud in a perfect world it would be great but it isn't and there are always the d!cks who will wait till the last minute then stop the traffic as they wait to push in. Blending earlier would definitely make it better as then you would have a a (more or less) single lane of traffic all driving at the same speed instead of having to slow down/stop to let people in. It stands to reason. On a normal road single lane traffic works fine under normal circumstances and the same principal is at work on motorways...blending earlier would work

IanMcL wrote:If both lanes are moving, then 'zip merging' as stated, would work.

However, on our roads, you join a queue of stationary traffic and remain stationary forever.

Why?

Because the tossers who think they can just carry on right to the cones and push in, ahead of the patient lane queuers!!!!!

I applaud the lorry drivers who hold up the traffic trying to beat the queue.

I do the blocking myself on occasion. It relies on the car behind to leave my gap (usually ok) and the idiots not to try and squeeze through gravel and other detritus, to get ahead. Some take huge risks for little purpose.

Yep, I'm with you. All this talk of zip merging etc is a thin disguise for "I want to get in front of all the lesser beings because I'm more important".

Those blocking the lanes (i.e. me sometimes) travel at the same speed as the other lane - about 1mph until someone's brave enough stop all those pushing in - thus creating perfect conditions for an orderly and fair zip merge.

houseboy wrote:As I said bud in a perfect world it would be great but it isn't and there are always the d!cks who will wait till the last minute then stop the traffic as they wait to push in. Blending earlier would definitely make it better as then you would have a a (more or less) single lane of traffic all driving at the same speed instead of having to slow down/stop to let people in. It stands to reason. On a normal road single lane traffic works fine under normal circumstances and the same principal is at work on motorways...blending earlier would work

Still, no. 'Blending' early increases the tailback. If everyone uses every available lane, as long as it is available and merges in turn then traffic will flow better and the impact of the tailback will be minimised.You shouldn't have to stop to let people in as you should be leaving adequate space. All you are doing is causing people to be unable to see why everyone is in one lane driving at the same speed because the tailback is 5 miles long.

Is it the d!cks merging last minute or is it the d!cks who don't let people merge that are the problem?

I would agree that people who fly down the 3rd lane and then want to get in are an issue, but driving at a sensible speed and merging in turn is actually helpful.

That said, much that I dislike those screaming to the front to push in, I think I dislike those that slow down and give a friendly flash to wave them in just before the cones even more. Come on! At least try and stop them getting away with it!

If it be your will wrote:That said, much that I dislike those screaming to the front to push in, I think I dislike those that slow down and give a friendly flash to wave them in just before the cones even more. Come on! At least try and stop them getting away with it!

I don't let them in and a few years ago one guy was so insistent on pushing in I actually just kept going (I think he was more proud of his car than I was) and he eventually went through the cones and had to stop. The look on his face was absolutely priceless.

deanothedino wrote:Still, no. 'Blending' early increases the tailback. If everyone uses every available lane, as long as it is available and merges in turn then traffic will flow better and the impact of the tailback will be minimised.You shouldn't have to stop to let people in as you should be leaving adequate space. All you are doing is causing people to be unable to see why everyone is in one lane driving at the same speed because the tailback is 5 miles long.

Is it the d!cks merging last minute or is it the d!cks who don't let people merge that are the problem?

I would agree that people who fly down the 3rd lane and then want to get in are an issue, but driving at a sensible speed and merging in turn is actually helpful.

Provided the tailback is not so long it's blocking the previous junction, it makes absolutely no difference what length the queue is. I'm not interested in a queue's length, just the time required to get through it. Merging early reduces this.

houseboy wrote:I don't let them in and a few years ago one guy was so insistent on pushing in I actually just kept going (I think he was more proud of his car than I was) and he eventually went through the cones and had to stop. The look on his face was absolutely priceless.

Brilliant!

Devils_Advocate wrote:https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/advice/driv ... p-merging/

Driving in the empty lane at the same speed as the full lane creates the perfect conditions for this, that's why the moment someone does it, the whole thing flows better.

Using all lanes to que (and Zip merging) is the safer method, causes less potential problems with junctions behind and under no circumstances is it slower to everyone to get through. Its also the recommend way following the highway code.

If people actually followed it, it wouldn't be seen as unfair either, as the two lanes would quickly even out in length, and reduce at the same distance, its this insistence in joining the long que and then getting annoyed at people driving past that's wrong.

SonofPog wrote:Using all lanes to que (and Zip merging) is the safer method, causes less potential problems with junctions behind and under no circumstances is it slower to everyone to get through. Its also the recommend way following the highway code.

If people actually followed it, it wouldn't be seen as unfair either, as the two lanes would quickly even out in length, and reduce at the same distance, its this insistence in joining the long que and then getting annoyed at people driving past that's wrong.

Agreed but the whole problem with it is that people DON'T work that way, if they did it would be fine. I'm not talking about the basic idea, which is great, but the fact that many will just not do it and therefore it doesn't work, only in principle. Until we can find a way of educating those who think their time is more important than anyone else's there are always going to be problems.

If it be your will wrote:Driving in the empty lane at the same speed as the full lane creates the perfect conditions for this, that's why the moment someone does it, the whole thing flows better.

But if both lanes are used to the merge point both lanes go at the same pace and the whole thing flows better right up to the roadworks.

All the slow car in the outside lane is doing is moving the problem further back down the road (they become the artificial roadworks) cos as the traffic slows down people will start moving into the queue earlier until the outside lane is again going faster than the inside lane (albeit a lot further back than it was before the numpty blocked the outside lane).

What then happens is another car sticks themselves out in the outside lane and repeats the whole process even further back. Simplest and most effective way is to have both lanes full and as both lanes approach they merge they will smoothly slow down and merge into one

houseboy wrote:Agreed but the whole problem with it is that people DON'T work that way, if they did it would be fine. I'm not talking about the basic idea, which is great, but the fact that many will just not do it and therefore it doesn't work, only in principle. Until we can find a way of educating those who think their time is more important than anyone else's there are always going to be problems.

Youre missing the point completely. The ones not doing it right and who need education are the ones who move in to early and dont use both lanes creating the situation where someone can fly up the outside and jump the queue

Those talking about fairness and queue jumping... I presume you never overtake anything on the motorway? It is queue jumping after all.

Devils_Advocate wrote:Youre missing the point completely. The ones not doing it right and who need education are the ones who move in to early and dont use both lanes creating the situation where someone can fly up the outside and jump the queue

Sorry mate i don't agree totally. The ones who fly up the outside lanes to the front will do that anyway, regardless of what others do. Some people will just not queue or adhere to rules.

PS I'm getting a sneaky little cheeky feeling that some are defending it because they are maybe the ones who fly to the front. I could be wrong of course.

Devils_Advocate wrote:But if both lanes are used to the merge point both lanes go at the same pace and the whole thing flows better right up to the roadworks.

All the slow car in the outside lane is doing is moving the problem further back down the road (they become the artificial roadworks) cos as the traffic slows down people will start moving into the queue earlier until the outside lane is again going faster than the inside lane (albeit a lot further back than it was before the numpty blocked the outside lane).

What then happens is another car sticks themselves out in the outside lane and repeats the whole process even further back. Simplest and most effective way is to have both lanes full and as both lanes approach they merge they will smoothly slow down and merge into one

"they will smoothly slow down and merge into one"
Good luck with that 1 if you expect that to happen, you are dealing with so many variables in terms of driver to driver experiences, I've been on the road for years & always expect the unexpected, people will automatically do whatever is easiest for them at any given time without hesitating.

The Quattro wrote:Those talking about fairness and queue jumping... I presume you never overtake anything on the motorway? It is queue jumping after all.

I think that is one of the worst analogies I have seen in quite some time. On a free flowing motorway there is no queue to jump, it is what it is, free flowing. A queue is where there is a definite waiting point or point of reduction, a bottleneck so to speak. That causes a queue.

Devils_Advocate wrote:But if both lanes are used to the merge point both lanes go at the same pace and the whole thing flows better right up to the roadworks.

All the slow car in the outside lane is doing is moving the problem further back down the road (they become the artificial roadworks) cos as the traffic slows down people will start moving into the queue earlier until the outside lane is again going faster than the inside lane (albeit a lot further back than it was before the numpty blocked the outside lane).

What then happens is another car sticks themselves out in the outside lane and repeats the whole process even further back. Simplest and most effective way is to have both lanes full and as both lanes approach they merge they will smoothly slow down and merge into one

You mean the one in the empty lane, the one that is choosing to travel at the same speed as the other lane, thus creating the perfect conditions for merging everywhere, should do this right up to the point of the the obstruction, in order to fully maximise all the available capacity?

Yes I agree. That's why I do it, yes.

If it be your will wrote:Yep, I'm with you. All this talk of zip merging etc is a thin disguise for "I want to get in front of all the lesser beings because I'm more important".

Those blocking the lanes (i.e. me sometimes) travel at the same speed as the other lane - about 1mph until someone's brave enough stop all those pushing in - thus creating perfect conditions for an orderly and fair zip merge.

Somebody gets it!

The key is to get both lanes moving, not one stationary and the other with a lot of cars all merging at the end. That just produces a 10 to 1 ratio of zipping and no zip I ever owned, fastened like that!

houseboy wrote:I think that is one of the worst analogies I have seen in quite some time. On a free flowing motorway there is no queue to jump, it is what it is, free flowing. A queue is where there is a definite waiting point or point of reduction, a bottleneck so to speak. That causes a queue.

Our motorways are one massive queue these days. Don’t know if you’ve noticed.

As I said earlier, British drivers are too territorial. I prefer to make progress safely. If there is still half a mile of lane left, why not use it? Use the full capacity of the road and people wouldn’t be able to “fly” up to the cone taper because the lane will be occupied by vehicles travelling at a slower speed, thereby reducing the speed differential and making everything flow a little better.

Moving early is fine, moving too early creates this situation where people have the opportunity to “fly” up the lane.

The Quattro wrote:Our motorways are one massive queue these days. Don’t know if you’ve noticed.

As I said earlier, British drivers are too territorial. I prefer to make progress safely. If there is still half a mile of lane left, why not use it? Use the full capacity of the road and people wouldn’t be able to “fly” up to the cone taper because the lane will be occupied by vehicles travelling at a slower speed, thereby reducing the speed differential and making everything flow a little better.

Moving early is fine, moving too early creates this situation where people have the opportunity to “fly” up the lane.

So you think those staying in their lane, in a manner that reduces the speed differential between the lanes, and not merging too early, are doing exactly the right thing, then.

I do, too.

If it be your will wrote:So you think those staying in their lane, in a manner that reduces the speed differential between the lanes, and not merging too early, are doing exactly the right thing, then.

I do, too.

Depends entirely on the conditions. If it’s done correctly, no issue. If it’s some inordinate distance down the road, thereby unreasonably restricting the capacity of the road, it is unnecessary obstruction of the highway.

houseboy wrote:Sorry mate i don't agree totally. The ones who fly up the outside lanes to the front will do that anyway, regardless of what others do. Some people will just not queue or adhere to rules.

PS I'm getting a sneaky little cheeky feeling that some are defending it because they are maybe the ones who fly to the front. I could be wrong of course.

I am not sure where you are going with these accusations on my character

Seriously though if everyone fills both lanes and they are both going at the same speed there is absolutely no opportunity for anyone to sneak up the outside and push in

If it be your will wrote:You mean the one in the empty lane, the one that is choosing to travel at the same speed as the other lane, thus creating the perfect conditions for merging everywhere, should do this right up to the point of the the obstruction, in order to fully maximise all the available capacity?

Yes I agree. That's why I do it, yes.

But if you all hadn't moved into the inside lane to early and stayed in the outside lane until the roadworks they would never be an empty lane.

What you are doing by going slowly in the empty lane is what would happen naturally without you if everyone just filled up both lanes

Devils_Advocate wrote:I am not sure where you are going with these accusations on my character

Seriously though if everyone fills both lanes and they are both going at the same speed there is absolutely no opportunity for anyone to sneak up the outside and push in

But if they all go at the same speed doesn't that somewhat negate the 'zipping' (what a good word by the way)?

*This is an interesting argument but we aren't getting anywhere. (See what I did then?)