[*]A serious challenge to the Tories
Yesterday he tied Bumbling. Boris in knots with his pointed questioning re Covid 19
After the disastrous regime of comedy politicians Corbyn and Abbott ,Labour have a bright ,artuculate leader.
Its a long way to go rebuilding the party but this is a positive start.

Starmer's biggest problem could lie within his own party with the ones who don't want him.

Back to style over substance.

Tory.

But a winner like Tony

He wasn’t that good!! The usual suspects, John Crace et al, are trying to big him up as some sort of forensic genius, but they would. After years of Corbyn it’s almost anything is better than Corbyn. PMQs has become increasingly irrelevant- who actually watches it, who reads reports, when was the last time there was a revaluation? Most of the commentary is on style and put downs.

Woodleyclaret wrote: ↑

Thu May 07, 2020 8:34 am

But a winner like Tony

who, in umpteen years of power, changed the square root of f*ck all from Thatcherism.

Really ?

The Tories need challenging by credible opposition. Corbyn just wasn’t. Don’t see any issue with Starmer to date. Seems credible and isn’t just going to take the opposite stance for the sake of it. Early days though.

fatboy47 wrote: ↑

Thu May 07, 2020 8:28 am

Back to style over substance.

Tory.

Posh Tory Starmer's childhood home on the left there, Comrade Corbyn's on the right.

We've finally got an intelligent, working class electable leader, obviously that's going to upset people.

Blackrod wrote: ↑

Thu May 07, 2020 8:59 am

The Tories need challenging by credible opposition. Corbyn just wasn’t. Don’t see any issue with Starmer to date. Seems credible and isn’t just going to take the opposite stance for the sake of it. Early days though.

Certainly a massive, massive upgrade for Labour. Didn’t watch PMQ’s but agree with the OP that he’s articulate - he ought to be given his profession. Imagine he’ll perform well at PMQ’s, forming his case and leaving it for the jury (public) to decide. For me, I’ll judge him as much on his ability to praise appropriately, support the government where necessary, and how he picks his battles.

He also needs to build a competent team around him. Look at how hard Johnson has found that! You might not like Hancock, Raab, et al - but I don’t see anyone on the Labour front bench that I would have more faith in. In fact, I don’t envy any political leader, having to pick a top team from, in Boris’ case, a list of 350 people he had limited control in selecting, and that number is even lower (with less control) for Starmer.

NewClaret wrote: ↑

Thu May 07, 2020 9:26 am

For me, I’ll judge him as much on his ability to praise appropriately, support the government where necessary, and how he picks his battles.

That in itself would be a step forward for British politics (on both sides).

DCWat wrote: ↑

Thu May 07, 2020 9:37 am

That in itself would be a step forward for British politics (on both sides).

Agreed. Why politicians can’t a) apologise when they get things wrong, or b) praise when the opposition party get something right, is beyond me.

Labour have to move towards the centre to win.
He seems to have a lot more about him than the previous regime. It’s critical that we have a functioning opposition to hold the government to account, in any scenario.
So far so good but taking Johnson apart in PMQ’s without the childish howling in the background isn’t all that difficult.

NewClaret wrote: ↑

Thu May 07, 2020 10:01 am

Agreed. Why politicians can’t a) apologise when they get things wrong, or b) praise when the opposition party get something right, is beyond me.

In the last election I am not sure the party realised how much damage people like Thornberry did with her approach to anything that was the opposition.

The Conservative Part are going to struggle badly at the next election if their current level of performance during this pandemic continues. There will be lots of ammunition for opposition parties to use:

• Lack of PPE

• slow to start testing,

• highest number of deaths in Europe (if current trends continue);

• allowing sporting events after Italy went into lockdown

• allowing people to come into the country without any tests or precautions

• stopping track and trace too early;

• easing out of of the lockdown too early resulting in a second wave of the virus (if this happens)

• unclear rules and guidelines during lockdown;

• Worst economic recession for a century due to not handling the virus correctly

• Loss of standing in the world (has anyone heard the Australian Prime Ministers latest comments on the UK) https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/12 ... S-covid-19

• Outbreak in Care Homes

If Labour are going to win they need to become a sensible centrist party again. I can't see any other credible opposition unless Nigel Farage manages to get something together.

claretonthecoast1882 wrote: ↑

Thu May 07, 2020 10:03 am

In the last election I am not sure the party realised how much damage people like Thornberry did with her approach to anything that was the opposition.

Spot on. Modern politics in a nutshell. Try to score points and gain favour by making others look bad rather than yourself look good. And it's no just politics, it applies to the workplace as well.

Interesting article on the BBC about the shift in direction to make Labour appear more cohesive
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-52539092

I've seen the future and its not Sir Keir Starmer.....












https://youtu.be/HzFOQEd9pWY

Firthy wrote: ↑

Thu May 07, 2020 10:25 am

Spot on. Modern politics in a nutshell. Try to score points and gain favour by making others look bad rather than yourself look good. And it's no just politics, it applies to the workplace as well.

I once read a saying/phrase which basically said that knocking the opposition/competition, is the weakest form of advertising.

To a point I agree with this. In politics it should be about what that party can do well, not what the opposition failed at. Concentrating on knocking down the opposition is saying you don't have enough qualities of your own to concentrate on.

If an opposition can't do any decent point scoring during a pandemic they never will be able to. On every aspect of this virus the leaders could have done better but let's face it if they did better people would expect even better. It's an absolute no win scenario the Tories are in.

fanzone wrote: ↑

Thu May 07, 2020 11:19 am

If an opposition can't do any decent point scoring during a pandemic they never will be able to. On every aspect of this virus the leaders could have done better but let's face it if they did better people would expect even better. It's an absolute no win scenario the Tories are in.

I tend to think the exact opposite. It’s very difficult to make political capital during something like this or you’ll be accused of not being united in the fight against the virus. You have to maintain a very difficult balancing act between supporting the fight and calling the government to account when necessary, something he’s done very well so far.

FactualFrank wrote: ↑

Thu May 07, 2020 11:15 am

I once read a saying/phrase which basically said that knocking the opposition/competition, is the weakest form of advertising.

To a point I agree with this. In politics it should be about what that party can do well, not what the opposition failed at. Concentrating on knocking down the opposition is saying you don't have enough qualities of your own to concentrate on.

Negative politics works It has been the mainstay of the last four Tory campaigns, and will likely feature heavily in the next one.

Swizzlestick wrote: ↑

Thu May 07, 2020 11:27 am

I tend to think the exact opposite. It’s very difficult to make political capital during something like this or you’ll be accused of not being united in the fight against the virus. You have to maintain a very difficult balancing act between supporting the fight and calling the government to account when necessary, something he’s done very well so far.

Exactly this, and that's why in previous crises we've often taken the route of a National Coalition in order to get everyone on board, but also to allow those in charge to question and challenge without being accused of partisanship or playing party politics.
Starmer must walk a tight-rope at present, but in any debate he would always wipe the floor with Johnson, who has a reputation for being unprepared, failing to process essential statistics and info and relying on impressive but vacuous soundbites, rather than knowing his stuff in detail. Starmer has a more forensic approach, swots up in advance and has the experience of being a leading barrister.
Once we get back to some degree of normality, Parliament will be a much better place without the hapless JC, who had many decent qualities but was a hopeless debater.

He's no chance. Some bloke in a football messageboard has started a smear campaign based on him having no personality. He'll be gone by Christmas.

Woodleyclaret wrote: ↑

Thu May 07, 2020 8:15 am

[*]A serious challenge to the Tories
Yesterday he tied Bumbling. Boris in knots with his pointed questioning re Covid 19

It's about time we had competent Opposition in the HoC. Their main role is to question the government of the day and hold them accountable. The Tories have had it too easy for way too long. I'd say the same if it had been Labour in power.

TheFamilyCat wrote: ↑

Thu May 07, 2020 12:27 pm

He's no chance. Some bloke in a football messageboard has started a smear campaign based on him having no personality. He'll be gone by Christmas.

I hear he lives in a house too!

FactualFrank wrote: ↑

Thu May 07, 2020 11:15 am

I once read a saying/phrase which basically said that knocking the opposition/competition, is the weakest form of advertising.

To a point I agree with this. In politics it should be about what that party can do well, not what the opposition failed at. Concentrating on knocking down the opposition is saying you don't have enough qualities of your own to concentrate on.

Sadly a lot of politics is about this now. The most egregious recent example probably being the Tory/Goldsmith semi-racist campaign for London mayor. They may have won if they'd run a campaign on what they could offer but instead it was so unrelentingly negative that it lost voters. The 2015 election "coalition of chaos" also aged prety badly.

Elitist ivory tower living metropolitan bubble dwelling terrorist sympathiser, probably.

Rileybobs wrote: ↑

Thu May 07, 2020 2:10 pm

Elitist ivory tower living metropolitan bubble dwelling terrorist sympathiser, probably.

Nah..take out the terrorist sympathiser bit and you might be about right

Seriously though he is a massive upgrade on Corbyn. Always been impressed by him and how he speaks..even if i have not always agreed with what he says. Like many have said it has been a long time coming. The country needs a credible opposition for a healthy situation to exist. Fair to say the Tories didn't really win the election but an unelectable Labour party lost it. Their stance on Brexit being the biggest nail in the coffin. The far left of the party need to release their iron grip and realise they will never be electable when they have control. It would certainly be for the greater good of politics and the country.

The Labour party is so far from it's roots. Their leader change is just window dressing. They are a party of disparate minorities pretending to represent the working class, whatever that is these days. Their intellectual snobbery and condescending attitude toward their traditional core vote was barely diguised. They need votes from people whose views they despise to regain power. They attempt to appease their Jewish members whilst trying to keep the important Muslim vote on side. Keir Starmer will just paper over the very big cracks.

ten bellies wrote: ↑

Thu May 07, 2020 4:40 pm

The Labour party is so far from it's roots. Their leader change is just window dressing. They are a party of disparate minorities pretending to represent the working class, whatever that is these days. Their intellectual snobbery and condescending attitude toward their traditional core vote was barely diguised. They need votes from people whose views they despise to regain power. They attempt to appease their Jewish members whilst trying to keep the important Muslim vote on side. Keir Starmer will just paper over the very big cracks.

Do agree with that to an extent. Has become a London party, entirely disconnected from the North.

Woodleyclaret wrote: ↑

Thu May 07, 2020 8:15 am

[*]A serious challenge to the Tories
Yesterday he tied Bumbling. Boris in knots with his pointed questioning re Covid 19
After the disastrous regime of comedy politicians Corbyn and Abbott ,Labour have a bright ,artuculate leader.
Its a long way to go rebuilding the party but this is a positive start.

Another anti British traitor though. Which is good. I have more chance of becoming PM than Keir effing Starmer.

Longsidebogs wrote: ↑

Thu May 07, 2020 8:18 pm

Another anti British traitor though.

What argument / evidence are you putting forward to support that statement? Genuinely interested to know. I've not really come across anything to doubt his patriotism or loyalty to his country.

Let's see how he looks after the Mail, Sun, Express, union Jack wavers, pro Israeli lobby and FaceBook red necks have about him.

Seems some of the JC loving he is the right man, are changing minds and have a new deliverer to bring them out of the wilderness.

I agree with the thread title, he is the future, don't know enough about it to make meaningful comments but he looks better, sounds better and I wish him well for the future.

He may have a bit of Errol Flynn about him, but I doubt he has the balls to do anything other than whine in the background.

HitchinClaret wrote: ↑

Thu May 07, 2020 9:48 pm

He may have a bit of Errol Flynn about him, but I doubt he has the balls to do anything other than whine in the background.

strange comparison, I always thought Errol was rumoured to be err well no issues in that department plus in real life Errol definitely did things to prove his point if the book written by David Niven was truthful, and something I always believed

AndrewJB wrote: ↑

Thu May 07, 2020 11:39 am

Negative politics works It has been the mainstay of the last four Tory campaigns, and will likely feature heavily in the next one.

I'm not sure it works that well,in 2010 they couldn't win a majority facing a Labour Party who'd been in power for 13 years,and in the aftermath of the financial crisis,hence why they had to form the coalition with the Libs,in 2015 they barely squeaked a slim majority,even when the Libs vote collapsed,and in 2017 they squandered a 20+ point lead in the polls,and lost their majority,leading to a fraught coalition with the DUP,it was only the public's growing frustration with brexit being delayed,and Corbyn's Labour not being seen as a credible alternative,that persuaded many voters to lend their vote to the Conservatives in 2019,if Labour can become a sensible centrist party once more,there's every chance many of those voters will switch back to them.

On the Keir Starmer has started fine for me,what the country and parliament needs right now,is a forensic critique of the government,and he's certainly capable of delivering that,time will tell how effective he'll prove to be,once politics and the nation returns to some form of normality,but i'd rate him a 7/10 thus far,i'm very much in the undecided camp regarding the next election,so i'm prepared to listen to what his vision for the country is post brexit and this pandemic.

At long last Labour have a leader that commands respect and exudes gravitas.If i was in CCHQ i'd be worried,they'll have to up their game to stay in power in 2024,finally the electorate have a viable alternative to consider,and going off the electoral cycles,Labour are due to return to power soon anyway.

tiger76 wrote: ↑

Thu May 07, 2020 10:24 pm

I'm not sure it works that well,in 2010 they couldn't win a majority facing a Labour Party who'd been in power for 13 years,and in the aftermath of the financial crisis,hence why they had to form the coalition with the Libs,in 2015 they barely squeaked a slim majority,even when the Libs vote collapsed,and in 2017 they squandered a 20+ point lead in the polls,and lost their majority,leading to a fraught coalition with the DUP,it was only the public's growing frustration with brexit being delayed,and Corbyn's Labour not being seen as a credible alternative,that persuaded many voters to lend their vote to the Conservatives in 2019,if Labour can become a sensible centrist party once more,there's every chance many of those voters will switch back to them.

On the Keir Starmer has started fine for me,what the country and parliament needs right now,is a forensic critique of the government,and he's certainly capable of delivering that,time will tell how effective he'll prove to be,once politics and the nation returns to some form of normality,but i'd rate him a 7/10 thus far,i'm very much in the undecided camp regarding the next election,so i'm prepared to listen to what his vision for the country is post brexit and this pandemic.

At long last Labour have a leader that commands respect and exudes gravitas.If i was in CCHQ i'd be worried,they'll have to up their game to stay in power in 2024,finally the electorate have a viable alternative to consider,and going off the electoral cycles,Labour are due to return to power soon anyway.

You’ve said it in your answer: “Corbyn not seen as a credible alternative” - Negative campaigning worked there. As with Miliband. You can be assured that if Starmer deviates from the Neo liberal consensus, the billionaire press barons will be all over him too. Ringo already calls him “charisma free” (like that’s my main concern when voting in an election). By rights, after the damage of austerity the Tories should have been out in 2015. Their success has been down to casting the blame for their destruction elsewhere, and a helpful propaganda arm with a majority of our print media, who (and I think you’ve noted this before) overlook and distract from government failure, and relentlessly attack the opposition.

This is what Starmers got to look forward to in terms of the right wing press spreading their filthy lies and no doubt the plebs will lap it up

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... ailymailUK

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1258 ... 34915.html

AndrewJB wrote: ↑

Thu May 07, 2020 11:10 pm

You’ve said it in your answer: “Corbyn not seen as a credible alternative” - Negative campaigning worked there. As with Miliband. You can be assured that if Starmer deviates from the Neo liberal consensus, the billionaire press barons will be all over him too. Ringo already calls him “charisma free” (like that’s my main concern when voting in an election). By rights, after the damage of austerity the Tories should have been out in 2015. Their success has been down to casting the blame for their destruction elsewhere, and a helpful propaganda arm with a majority of our print media, who (and I think you’ve noted this before) overlook and distract from government failure, and relentlessly attack the opposition.

So the Labour party and Corbyn are blameless? All lies by the press caused their downfall? We have had this conversation a few times Andrew. This sheer pigheadedness to not hold the hand up, admit mistakes in policy, see how unelectable they are and blame the right wing press for all Labours ills is tiresome. I only hope for the Labour partys sake that central office don't think your way or you can be assured of many more years in opposition wilderness and letting the tories run the country.
I also find it quite patronising to the population of the country that you believe this swayed them so completely not withstanding you clearly think it is/was all lies and spin. Corbyn got some harsh treatment but he was hardly the right call to be Labour leader in the first place let alone be a PM. He brought a lot of the problems on himself.
I'm one of those Labour need to win back. Time will tell. It will take a lot but you never know. Starmer is a good start but there is so much wrong with Labour at the moment it really is just that..a start.

Longsidebogs wrote: ↑

Thu May 07, 2020 8:18 pm

Another anti British traitor though. Which is good. I have more chance of becoming PM than Keir effing Starmer.

You may well be right, given the drift towards electing brain dead simpletons to positions of power these days.

Edit wrong thread

Reply to Bordeauxclaret. Moved to Covid thread.

Fully paid up member of the Woke community and no connection whatsoever to the working people outside the bubble he lives in. Blames te system not criminals. just what the normal people of the UK don't want to see.

Woodleyclaret wrote: ↑

Thu May 07, 2020 8:34 am

But a winner like Tony

So he's a liar as well. Tony a liar pretending to be a decent guy.

Stayingup wrote: ↑

Fri May 08, 2020 9:11 am

Fully paid up member of the Woke community and no connection whatsoever to the working people outside the bubble he lives in. Blames te system not criminals. just what the normal people of the UK don't want to see.

As opposed to those working class heroes like Boris Johnson and Jacob Rees Mogg.

Stayingup wrote: ↑

Fri May 08, 2020 9:11 am

bubble

Ah, there we go.

Stayingup wrote: ↑

Fri May 08, 2020 9:11 am

Fully paid up member of the Woke community and no connection whatsoever to the working people outside the bubble he lives in. Blames te system not criminals. just what the normal people of the UK don't want to see.

Woke; ‘alert to injustice in society’.

And this is a bad thing how?

claretonthecoast1882 wrote: ↑

Thu May 07, 2020 8:16 am

Starmer's biggest problem could lie within his own party with the ones who don't want him.

The same problem that Corbyn had, then?