Unless they have a remarkable recovery in Scotland, Labour would have to increase their seats in England and Wales by 60% to win the next election, a feat never before achieved ..... this would include overturning Jacob Rees Mogg's 14,729 majority in North East Somerset, among many others !summitclaret wrote: ↑Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:17 amDoesn't sound like Burgon gets it though.
http://news.sky.com/story/a-toxic-combi ... n-12010091
And it took 4 months? 1 hour in any northern “working men’s” club and you would have the same conclusionClarets4me wrote: ↑Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:10 amPublished this morning, four months of extensive research, focus groups, interviews and analysis, poured over by 15 senior Labour figures, apparently from all sections of the party have concluded that ....
1) Corbyn was not trusted to be Prime Minister
2) Their Brexit policy was confusing and unpopular in their traditional heartlands
3) The manifesto was seen as " undeliverable "
4) There was a dysfunctional " toxic " culture around the leadership
Hardly startling revelations to anybody who follows politics ....
You'll perhaps know better than me, but I understand that many of the party's committees and ruling bodies are still controlled by the " Corbyn/Milne " wing of the party, at least for the time being. However, with Johnson's current majority, Labour have the luxury of time on their hands to present a more electable proposition next time around ....
Could it be that the Party aristocracy actually do know what they are talking about and winning a general election isn’t the same as winning a party election? If only Labour members had listened then they might have won an election against the weakest most decisive most ineffectual etc etc Tory Party ever seen in the history of modern politics in this country.
They have lost touch with the common working man.dermotdermot wrote: ↑Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:57 amFour months to come to a conclusion that was blatantly obvious to anyone with an ounce of common sense. Corbyn and Co have dragged the Labour Party down to the depths of despair, from which it will take an eternity to recover. At a time when perhaps a realistically moderate party was needed more than ever. So incredibly selfish and stupid.
You obviously don't remember any of Thatchers cabinets then? They weren't as much incompetent as pure evil...and they looked it!tiger76 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 19, 2020 12:30 pmGood article in the NS, pretty lengthy though so i'll post the link if anyone wants to readhttps://www.newstatesman.com/politics/u ... son-polls
Starmer's numbers far outstrip his party, and until that changes Labour won't make progress, i agree with many KS has been impressive in holding the government to account, far more than JC was in his final few months, the challenge for him is to mould a shadow cabinet that the public believe is up to the task of replacing this present bunch, if he can do that he'll be PM in 4 years time.
The public are crying out for a sensible centrist party with a modicum of competence, they don't expect miracles, just basic governance will suffice.
Oh! and honesty and integrity goes a long way, this current cabinet is the worst I've seen in my lifetime, and i'm 44.
I was still at school then, so i was more interested in girls and football than politics, i'm well aware of the Thatcher years in retrospect, and the iron lady certainly splits opinion that's for sure.Somethingfishy wrote: ↑Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:52 pmYou obviously don't remember any of Thatchers cabinets then? They weren't as much incompetent as pure evil...and they looked it!
You’ve taken a statement often repeated by rightwing writers and opinion people - that Labour has lost touch with the common working man, yet you’re doubtful of media influence? Everything in the last manifesto was good for the common working man. So if that is genuinely your opinion, then tell us how they’ve lost touch.Somethingfishy wrote: ↑Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:50 pmThey have lost touch with the common working man.
I've said the same for a long time..but it is all the fault of the media and their conspiracy against Corbyn...apparently
Either your for democracy or against it. Anyone for democracy - regardless of your political stripes - should be affronted at senior people in a party working to overturn the voice of the members. And as for the blitz of relentless media attacks on Corbyn, the media owners were terrified of his policies, but attacked him rather than those policies. Rather than informing, the media worked to prevent people from having a choice.Burnley Ace wrote: ↑Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:31 amCould it be that the Party aristocracy actually do know what they are talking about and winning a general election isn’t the same as winning a party election? If only Labour members had listened then they might have won an election against the weakest most decisive most ineffectual etc etc Tory Party ever seen in the history of modern politics in this country.
So being for democracy you will now be supporting Brexit irrespective that wiser and more experienced people are telling you that it’s a bad idea?AndrewJB wrote: ↑Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:41 pmEither your for democracy or against it. Anyone for democracy - regardless of your political stripes - should be affronted at senior people in a party working to overturn the voice of the members. And as for the blitz of relentless media attacks on Corbyn, the media owners were terrified of his policies, but attacked him rather than those policies. Rather than informing, the media worked to prevent people from having a choice.
Simples. It's because they voted Tory/Brexit in droves. The marxists and trots need to form their own party and unite the country in their heads.AndrewJB wrote: ↑Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:34 pmYou’ve taken a statement often repeated by rightwing writers and opinion people - that Labour has lost touch with the common working man, yet you’re doubtful of media influence? Everything in the last manifesto was good for the common working man. So if that is genuinely your opinion, then tell us how they’ve lost touch.
They were just too stupid to realize what was good for them, unfortunately !AndrewJB wrote: ↑Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:34 pmYou’ve taken a statement often repeated by rightwing writers and opinion people - that Labour has lost touch with the common working man, yet you’re doubtful of media influence? Everything in the last manifesto was good for the common working man. So if that is genuinely your opinion, then tell us how they’ve lost touch.
I don’t have a job helping to implement Brexit while secretly attempting to prevent it. There was nothing wrong with party members not liking or disagreeing with Corbyn, It’s those who worked for the party in senior posts and actively worked toward Labour electoral defeats.Burnley Ace wrote: ↑Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:51 pmSo being for democracy you will now be supporting Brexit irrespective that wiser and more experienced people are telling you that it’s a bad idea?
In droves? No. Working class people were just as divided as everyone else:summitclaret wrote: ↑Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:52 pmSimples. It's because they voted Tory/Brexit in droves. The marxists and trots need to form their own party and unite the country in their heads.
No.. that is for the Labour party to work out and hopefully unlike yourself they won't continually blame the rightwing press for doing what they do naturally anyway. You should be explaining to me how the common working man rejected all the freebies and unicorns that Corbyn was chucking our way and still not only didn't vote for him..they voted for the Tories. Is the media pull that strong that they will ignore these freebies and enticements? Perhaps as is more likely they didn't believe they were deliverable? From the findings, the Labour party think it was an issue. I agree and have agreed with you in the past that Corbyn was overly harshly treated but on the flip side the Labour party put a gun to its own head and it was fully loaded. The media merely pulled the trigger.AndrewJB wrote: ↑Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:34 pmYou’ve taken a statement often repeated by rightwing writers and opinion people - that Labour has lost touch with the common working man, yet you’re doubtful of media influence? Everything in the last manifesto was good for the common working man. So if that is genuinely your opinion, then tell us how they’ve lost touch.
I’ve said before that Labour’s presentation of their manifesto was very poor, but I think in calling them “unicorns and freebies” you’re parroting the media again. Why did you not believe the party would deliver, when in the past the party did deliver (NHS, etc)? You didn’t believe they could deliver because you were bombarded with news saying they couldn’t. Taking control of and running transport, water, power, etc - in the national interest rather than to profit big business - is not exactly pie in the sky, when you consider how many other countries do it. I’m not questioning your sincerity, but how you reached your conclusions. Perhaps decades of the mantra “government can’t run things” told you Labour couldn’t deliver, and if that’s the case then you have been led by right wing propaganda. And it doesn’t explain how you think Labour is out of touch with working class people, unless you’re going to tell me that working class people prefer to pay more for energy and water, or like train networks that deliver huge profits to owners while making them late for work, and are quite happy with unaffordable housing and low pay.Somethingfishy wrote: ↑Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:21 pmNo.. that is for the Labour party to work out and hopefully unlike yourself they won't continually blame the rightwing press for doing what they do naturally anyway. You should be explaining to me how the common working man rejected all the freebies and unicorns that Corbyn was chucking our way and still not only didn't vote for him..they voted for the Tories. Is the media pull that strong that they will ignore these freebies and enticements? Perhaps as is more likely they didn't believe they were deliverable? From the findings, the Labour party think it was an issue. I agree and have agreed with you in the past that Corbyn was overly harshly treated but on the flip side the Labour party put a gun to its own head and it was fully loaded. The media merely pulled the trigger.
I think we are about to be in recession at best. A depression at worst.boatshed bill wrote: ↑Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:41 pmI'm a life-long (well since I grew up) Labour voter. I've been a trade union member,still am a Labour party member. I firmly believe that the values under which the Labour Party was originally formed have minimal appeal in our modern society.
Can't see Labour increasing their vote except by doing something similar to what Blair did...
I've said the same. It was easy to rally against the Tories during the 50s, 60s, upto the noughties. Since then the class war has all but died. Nobody cares less where you've come from. I've also said many times that working class man has never been as well off. Getting them to rally around your flag requires a vision that doesn't involve them losing what it has taken 60 years to achieve.boatshed bill wrote: ↑Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:41 pmI'm a life-long (well since I grew up) Labour voter. I've been a trade union member,still am a Labour party member. I firmly believe that the values under which the Labour Party was originally formed have minimal appeal in our modern society.
Can't see Labour increasing their vote except by doing something similar to what Blair did...
We have the most extreme right government in recent history who have spent ten years looting and vandalising our public services, and making the poor poorer; a lazy, useless racist chancer as PM, whose inability to lead has cost us tens of thousands of lives during this pandemic, and driven the country into the biggest economic depression in our history; but all of this is somehow the fault of the left?Colburn_Claret wrote: ↑Sat Jun 20, 2020 9:27 amI've said the same. It was easy to rally against the Tories during the 50s, 60s, upto the noughties. Since then the class war has all but died. Nobody cares less where you've come from. I've also said many times that working class man has never been as well off. Getting them to rally around your flag requires a vision that doesn't involve them losing what it has taken 60 years to achieve.
The best attribute of Blair, and I know the left wingers hate him, is that he brought people together. Businesses were encouraged to provide for schools and education, he got rid of the them and us stigma.
The far left, and they are still there hiding in the shadows are very divisive. They want to put us up against each other Rich against poor, White against Black, Christian against Muslim, Heterosexuals against Gays.
It's possible to be poor and proud to be British.
It's possible to be Christian and care about Muslims and Jews.
It's possible to be rich and care about the poor, the sick, and the elderly.
It's possible to be White and care about BAME.
It's possible to be patriotic without being a xenophobe.
But if you listened to the bullshit the extreme left spout, all the ills of the world are the fault of the rich, white privileged, racist, christian, nationalists.
They've already put half the country against them already.......
From your position Andrew, everyman and his dog is extreme right wing. That you even think this government is extreme right wing, shows that you are very, very young, or have a total lack of knowledge about our history. These boys are piddling centrists compared to Thatcher.AndrewJB wrote: ↑Sat Jun 20, 2020 11:08 amWe have the most extreme right government in recent history who have spent ten years looting and vandalising our public services, and making the poor poorer; a lazy, useless racist chancer as PM, whose inability to lead has cost us tens of thousands of lives during this pandemic, and driven the country into the biggest economic depression in our history; but all of this is somehow the fault of the left?
It was so realistic too.Come on Andrew. I usually respect what you say but this 'driven the country into the biggest economic depression' is a pretty pathetic way to attack the government in the current situation.
Yes it is the fault of the left who, by trying to peddle their extreme policies over the last decade, especially in the last five, miserable, Corbyn years, have allowed the right wing of the Tory party to flourish. I blame them entirely for being stubbornly selfish and stupid.AndrewJB wrote: ↑Sat Jun 20, 2020 11:08 amWe have the most extreme right government in recent history who have spent ten years looting and vandalising our public services, and making the poor poorer; a lazy, useless racist chancer as PM, whose inability to lead has cost us tens of thousands of lives during this pandemic, and driven the country into the biggest economic depression in our history; but all of this is somehow the fault of the left?
I liked Gordon Brown, I've seen him at conference when obviously relaxed, and he was solid and honest.dermotdermot wrote: ↑Sat Jun 20, 2020 5:04 pmI think that you’re wrong to bracket Gordon Brown with Miliband and Corbyn. In my view, a political heavyweight who might just have swung the 2010 election had it not been for the Murdoch press and being unfortunate enough to encounter that hideous woman from Rochdale.
Well I fell into that one. In the case of Corbyn, he didn’t need the press to be against him. He would have lost anyway due to his staggering incompetence. Gordon Brown, on the other hand, had the press, who had previously backed Tony Blair, suddenly turn against him on the eve of the election. He very nearly won that election even after losing their backing had it not been for that ‘bigoted’ half witted woman from Rochdale. It is possible that, had it not been for her untimely intervention, the course of the last ten years might have been entirely different. Just think. No austerity, no brexit, no Corbyn, no McCluskey, no Johnson, no Cummings. Ah, what might have been had she not ventured out that day.Vino blanco wrote: ↑Sat Jun 20, 2020 5:19 pmAh, it's the right wing press again. They must be very naughty boys.
I suspect the same problem for the " strident shouty left " will re-occur at the next election, assisted by the more extreme elements of " Black Lives matter " and other fellow travellers ...Vino blanco wrote: ↑Sat Jun 20, 2020 6:40 pmAh, you mean the bigoted half witted woman from Rochdale, who is a member of the British electorate and has the same vote as all the pseudo intellectuals on here.
I don't disagree that much with a fair bit of that. He didn't come across particularly well and wasn't politically savvy.daveyclaret wrote: ↑Sat Jun 20, 2020 4:54 pm...
I listened to Corbyn many times when he spoke in Parliament and I watched numerous interviews of him and it became obvious to me that Corbyn would never be Prime Minister. He doesn’t look the part, he doesn’t act the part, and, in my view, he really doesn’t want the part. He’s happy to be in permanent opposition as that appears to me to be the extent of his political capability. Add to that, his motley crew of a Shadow Cabinet who didn’t give me and others ‘confidence’ that they had the capability to be Government Ministers and able to make the 'big' Government decisions.
...
And the fact that she has the same vote as all the pseudo intellectuals on here. Is what sees so much resentment fuelled rancor from all the pseudo intellectuals on here.Vino blanco wrote: ↑Sat Jun 20, 2020 6:40 pmAh, you mean the bigoted half witted woman from Rochdale, who is a member of the British electorate and has the same vote as all the pseudo intellectuals on here.
Context is important in this. I was replying to someone who (among many others) claimed that austerity happened because Labour "wrecked the economy." I think most of us understand that the 2008 financial crash took a big hit on our economy, however they continue to insist that Labour was at fault, so I'm simply keeping with that train of thought with this current crisis. Those who insist Labour wrecked the economy in 2008 have to accept that the Tories have done the same in 2020.
Townsend came to my door and i informed him i would no longer be voting for Labour. Without asking why he instantly asked me if it was because of Corbyn. I said it was one of many issues but yes he was one of them. He just sighed and said it was a common theme and that he personally didn't think he was fit to be their leader let alone PM. He begged me to vote for the party not the man but i told him it was more than just Corbyn. He had the look of a man who had taken a hammering on many doorsteps....but yes...it was all the right wing medias fault.Clarets4me wrote: ↑Sat Jun 20, 2020 6:50 pmF/B posts from former Burnley Council Leader & Labour group leader, Mark Townsend ......
12/12/19 - Election Day ... " This is the day for real change.Vote for the many not the few. Vote Labour - Vote Julie Cooper !
14/12/19 - " I cannot believe Corbyn hasn't resigned with immediate effect. He will be in Parliament before Christmas still supposedly representing and leading us. I've put up with it for too long, defending the indefensible on the door-steps and he no longer speaks for me. He has put us in the wilderness, left the " many " in despair rather than hope, and left to him, for any time at all, he will steer us into another cul-de-sac. He needs to GO NOW !!
But he wanted us to make Corbyn Prime Minister 48 hours earlier ...