The Bt commentator said As the players take the knee that needs addressing.

5 out of 91 is a higher percentage proportionally than the black population in England.

Surely more of a concern is that we don’t have 8% Asian managers?

Or that only 45% of tonight’s starting 22 starting players are white British.

The media constantly keep peddling an issue that doesn’t exist.

Football is one of the best examples of being good enough you will get the job. Regardless of race or nationality. Exactly how it should be.

It’s not really about the overall population statistics.
It’s about the high number of black players in football - I don’t know the percentages sorry but the point is that so few of them end up in management positions or in other senior positions at football clubs.

There are very few Asian footballers who make it professionally into our game so the lack of Asian managers is no surprise at all. Why so few Asians make it into the game may be a separate debate but fundamentally whatever colour or race you are you make it as a player based on your ability.

I’m not really sure of the point you are making CC as surely I am stating the obvious here.

No female managers, shocking.

No excuses.

Over 50% of the population excluded.

TVC15 wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 08, 2020 6:16 pm

It’s not really about the overall population statistics.
It’s about the high number of black players in football - I don’t know the percentages sorry but the point is that so few of them end up in management positions or in other senior positions at football clubs.

There are very few Asian footballers who make it professionally into our game so the lack of Asian managers is no surprise at all. Why so few Asians make it into the game may be a separate debate but fundamentally whatever colour or race you are you make it as a player based on your ability.

I’m not really sure of the point you are making CC as surely I am stating the obvious here.

The problem (if there is one) then is are enough applying. Or doing the coaching badges etc?

It’s easy to brandish stats about. As I’ve shown. But it doesn’t help matters.

Being a professional footballer is pretty much an absolute prerequisite to going on to become a football manager in the top professional leagues

With that in mind a good benchmark would be how the demographic % split of players transposes in to the split of managers to assess if any barriers exist

The stats around demographic split of professional footballers is a completely different discussion altogether but one that could be had

If youre gonna try and have a sensible discussion on the subject you need to split the two topics whilst understand how one has a almost complete dependency on the other

If you manage to get a sensible discussion of this topic on this messageboard I will be absolutely amazed

If they are good enough it doesn't matter what colour they are, colour has nothing to do with it, you give job's on ability not colour or if they are short of a certain type, why is nothing mentioned about no women mangers in professional football

Caernarfon_Claret wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 08, 2020 6:16 pm

No female managers, shocking.

No excuses.

Over 50% of the population excluded.

Karen Carney on commentary balances that out.

good job they don't focus on horse racing, apart from Arabic or rich englishmen who own half the country, everyone involved with the business is either an irish betting expert or a two foot tall irish jockey.

I think the next manager of Burnley should be black, female and disabled. Keep everyone happy.

pushpinpussy wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 08, 2020 6:25 pm

I think the next manager of Burnley should be black, female and disabled. Keep everyone happy.

It'd keep me happy if she got results. Not arsed about anything else.

You'd probably have to do it league by league both for % of players and then managers, and also for current managers you'd have to go back at least 5 years and look at % from then as if most managers are retired players there'd be a lag.

Just as an example if 15% BAME players in league two

18% in league one

24% in Championship

35% in Premier League

Caernarfon_Claret wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 08, 2020 6:28 pm

You'd probably have to do it league by league both for % of players and then managers, and also for current managers you'd have to go back at least 5 years and look at % from then as if most managers are retired players there'd be a lag.

Just as an example if 15% BAME players in league two

18% in league one

24% in Championship

35% in Premier League

Why aren’t more white English players getting a chance?

I think it is a fair question to ask why the high percentage of black footballers doesn't translate into a similar percentage of black coaching and management staff.

Are they not applying for the jobs? If so why not?
Are they applying but not getting interviews? If so why not?
Are they getting interviewed but not getting the jobs? If so why not?

Sensible and balanced discussion to be had here and I think the conclusions drawn would be very interesting.

cricketfieldclarets wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 08, 2020 6:32 pm

Why aren’t more white English players getting a chance?

Perhaps they're choosing dentistry instead.

ksrclaret wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 08, 2020 6:32 pm

I think it is a fair question to ask why the high percentage of black footballers doesn't translate into a similar percentage of black coaching and management staff.

Are they not applying for the jobs? If so why not?
Are they applying but not getting interviews? If so why not?
Are they getting interviewed but not getting the jobs? If so why not?

Sensible and balanced discussion to be had here and I think the conclusions drawn would be very interesting.

Simple answer to all those questions.....They aren't good enough nothing else

cricketfieldclarets wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 08, 2020 6:18 pm

The problem (if there is one) then is are enough applying. Or doing the coaching badges etc?

It’s easy to brandish stats about. As I’ve shown. But it doesn’t help matters.

It’s a well publicised campaign that a number of black players like Les Ferdinand, Paul Ince, John Barnes etc have been commenting on for years. There view is that there is discrimination against black people applying for these roles. It is of course a really complex area and I don’t know the statistics for black players doing their coaching badges etc.
But I still really don’t get your OP...it does sound like you were trying to be controversial as I can’t believe for one minute you thought this was a population percentage issue. You are now admitting you don’t know the statistics on how many black players are applying for roles or taking coaching badges yet you seem to be firmly in a camp that suggests this is not an issue - which I find strange tbh.

ClaretMov wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 08, 2020 6:37 pm

Simple answer to all those questions.....They aren't good enough nothing else

You have no idea if that is the case and nor do I.

Not a simple answer at all.

ksrclaret wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 08, 2020 6:32 pm

I think it is a fair question to ask why the high percentage of black footballers doesn't translate into a similar percentage of black coaching and management staff.

Are they not applying for the jobs? If so why not?
Are they applying but not getting interviews? If so why not?
Are they getting interviewed but not getting the jobs? If so why not?

Sensible and balanced discussion to be had here and I think the conclusions drawn would be very interesting.

thats exactly what it needs - including from the commentators. Not just blanket statements.

Pretty sure the mantra of if you're good enough you get the job doesn't apply to all jobs in football..

For years there have been a number of white managers on the merry-go-round who keep on being given jobs then getting fired a couple of years later to then step into another job relatively quickly.

I fail to see why they're preferred over any other manager but they were/are blocking other managers from being given a chance.

Former black players may just feel there isn't any point bothering.
They might also wonder why Lampard can go from a season at Derby and step into the Chelsea job but Sol Campbell has to scratch around lower down the leagues.

TVC15 wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 08, 2020 6:37 pm

It’s a well publicised campaign that a number of black players like Les Ferdinand, Paul Ince, John Barnes etc

Strange.

Paul Ince got several managers jobs. Decent at lower level and average at best higher up.

John Barnes Managed at the top in Scotland with Celtic (he made Chris Waddle look like Sir Alex Ferguson) - he lost a third of his games - AT CELTIC!

Les Ferdinand seems to have done OK as a coach. Im sure any club would welcome him applying as a manager.

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 08, 2020 6:54 pm

They might also wonder why Lampard can go from a season at Derby and step into the Chelsea job but Sol Campbell has to scratch around lower down the leagues.

Your point on lampard is a poor one. It was obvious at the time why Derby would appoint him and even more obvious why chelsea would. And given the constraints at Chelsea has done an incredible job there. And was very close to taking derby up also.

Why did Teddy Sheringham have to start out Where Campbell did?

Lampard clearly showed (Like Dyche did with us) that he was a top candidate and since proved that with results.

How is the percentage of black managers proposed to be increased ?
Will the board of a football club be advised by the powers that be that they must appoint a black manager when a vacancy occurs ? (with or without an interview)

cricketfieldclarets wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 08, 2020 6:59 pm

Your point on lampard is a poor one. It was obvious at the time why Derby would appoint him and even more obvious why chelsea would. And given the constraints at Chelsea has done an incredible job there. And was very close to taking derby up also.

Why did Teddy Sheringham have to start out Where Campbell did?

Lampard clearly showed (Like Dyche did with us) that he was a top candidate and since proved that with results.

Why was it obvious Derby would appoint him?
Aside from the fact he could get decent loan players in from Chelsea?

At Chelsea he's been able to use the Academy they've been pouring money into for years now and he's had a very good group of players to use.
That potentially could've gone sour just as easily.

As for Campbell, my point still stands, he had to wait and scratch around for a job in league football.

Caernarfon_Claret wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 08, 2020 6:34 pm

Perhaps they're choosing dentistry instead.

That's what happened to me

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 08, 2020 7:05 pm

Why was it obvious Derby would appoint him?
Aside from the fact he could get decent loan players in from Chelsea?

BEcause he has been a leader on and off the field his entire career. Brilliant attributes as a player and captain. And evidently very intelligent. has worked for the best managers in the world.

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 08, 2020 7:05 pm

At Chelsea he's been able to use the Academy they've been pouring money into for years now and he's had a very good group of players to use.
That potentially could've gone sour just as easily.

Under a transfer embargo and after losing one of the worlds best players .

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 08, 2020 7:05 pm

As for Campbell, my point still stands, he had to wait and scratch around for a job in league football.

As did Teddy Sheringham. Chris Waddle. Tony Adams. Nick Barmby.

Pimlico_Claret wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 08, 2020 7:12 pm

That's what happened to me

It's OK, don't worry, I haven't been stalking you.

Caernarfon_Claret wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 08, 2020 7:14 pm

It's OK, don't worry, I haven't been stalking you.

No problem, you'd never find me anyway

I dont believe for a second a club wouldn't hire a manager because be is black - but there must be an underlying reason why fewer black players go into coaching. Need to work out why and fix it.

cricketfieldclarets wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 08, 2020 7:13 pm

BEcause he has been a leader on and off the field his entire career. Brilliant attributes as a player and captain. And evidently very intelligent. has worked for the best managers in the world.



Under a transfer embargo and after losing one of the worlds best players .


As did Teddy Sheringham. Chris Waddle. Tony Adams. Nick Barmby.

Sol Campbell, leader, winner and played at the highest level and I think he's represented England at more international tournaments than anyone else.
He's also not stupid and played for some great managers.

As for Chelsea's embargo, like I said that could've gone sour just as easily.
As for Hazard, he's been replaced and they haven't missed him because they did very good work prior to the ban being enforced.
Hopefully Hazard stops getting ankle fractures because he's been very unlucky with those this season.

Getting desperate now pulling out Barmby, Adams and Waddle to go with Sheringham
They had a go, 2 of them haven't bothered since their first and only job which would suggest they didn't really fancy it long term.
Sheringham tends to spend more of his time watching his son play, I've met him at a Salisbury game once about 6yrs ago.

Adams has other things on the go, like his treatment centre for addicts

Campbell was never given the same opportunities in management as Lampard.
You can drag out whichever names you like of white former elite level players who made the step into management, but haven't made a long term career out of it if it makes you happy.

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 08, 2020 7:34 pm

Sol Campbell, leader, winner and played at the highest level and I think he's represented England at more international tournaments than anyone else.
He's also not stupid and played for some great managers.

As for Chelsea's embargo, like I said that could've gone sour just as easily.
As for Hazard, he's been replaced and they haven't missed him because they did very good work prior to the ban being enforced.
Hopefully Hazard stops getting ankle fractures because he's been very unlucky with those this season.

Getting desperate now pulling out Barmby, Adams and Waddle to go with Sheringham
They had a go, 2 of them haven't bothered since their first and only job which would suggest they didn't really fancy it long term.
Sheringham tends to spend more of his time watching his son play, I've met him at a Salisbury game once about 6yrs ago.

Adams has other things on the go, like his treatment centre for addicts

Campbell was never given the same opportunities in management as Lampard.
You can drag out whichever names you like of white former elite level players who made the step into management, but haven't made a long term career out of it if it makes you happy.

Do you ever admit when you are wrong?

cricketfieldclarets wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 08, 2020 7:37 pm

Do you ever admit when you are wrong?

About as often as you, so never pretty much.

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 08, 2020 7:38 pm

About as often as you, so never pretty much.

The difference is I am rarely wrong

cricketfieldclarets wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 08, 2020 7:39 pm

The difference is I am rarely wrong

Your standards are slipping

Devils_Advocate wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 08, 2020 7:40 pm

Your standards are slipping

The guys crackers. You can provide many, many more examples of White English players that started at the bottom. That doesnt count though.

cricketfieldclarets wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 08, 2020 7:43 pm

The guys crackers. You can provide many, many more examples of White English players that started at the bottom. That doesnt count though.

Like for like comparison though.

Two elite level players, both intelligent, articulate and wealth of experience having played for some of the best managers in the game.

One got his first job in the championship and then straight into an elite level job.

The other had to scratch around for years and eventually ended up in the lower leagues.

I'm not crackers, I've presented a well reasoned opinion which you then decided to respond using Nick effing Barmby

cricketfieldclarets wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 08, 2020 7:43 pm

The guys crackers. You can provide many, many more examples of White English players that started at the bottom. That doesnt count though.

I more agree with Sid but just here for the laughs

Personally, I couldn’t give a cr4p if there were only 5 white managers out of 91. It’s only a problem for people with agendas.

cricketfieldclarets wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 08, 2020 6:56 pm

Strange.

Paul Ince got several managers jobs. Decent at lower level and average at best higher up.

John Barnes Managed at the top in Scotland with Celtic (he made Chris Waddle look like Sir Alex Ferguson) - he lost a third of his games - AT CELTIC!

Les Ferdinand seems to have done OK as a coach. Im sure any club would welcome him applying as a manager.

Les Ferdinand isn’t a coach - he’s on the QPR board. One of the only black people sat on a league club board

Paul Ince has argued for years he has been overlooked for a number of roles due to the colour of his skin.

Barnes is arguing about the point in general now rather than about himself. He no longer wants to coach apparently.

Maybe you should do some more research about what it is they are saying because right from the off you seem to be making stuff up to try and fit into a view you want to hold.
I’d still be a bit embarrassed about that OP if I were you.

Viera and Henry. Both got the precious treatment by being handed youth development roles at their idolatry clubs, and both were offered or interviewed for big first time positions, Newcastle and Monaco. But both have also shown the willingness to develop their skills down in the MLS. Not making a point but both arguments can be used either way.

TVC15 wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 08, 2020 8:39 pm

Les Ferdinand isn’t a coach - he’s on the QPR board. One of the only black people sat on a league club board

Paul Ince has argued for years he has been overlooked for a number of roles due to the colour of his skin.

Barnes is arguing about the point in general now rather than about himself. He no longer wants to coach apparently.

Maybe you should do some more research about what it is they are saying because right from the off you seem to be making stuff up to try and fit into a view you want to hold.
I’d still be a bit embarrassed about that OP if I were you.

thats why I said Les did OK as a coach. He WAS a coach. And did well. And now arguably has a better job.

Paul Ince hasnt been overlooked for a number of roles because of the colour of his skin. He managed many clubs and the higher up he got the worse he was. He got overlooked because he wasn't a good manager.

You honestly think in a multi million pound business where success brings huge riches, clubs would pick a white manager over a more suitable black one? Really?

No more research required.

CharlieinNewMexico wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 08, 2020 8:48 pm

Viera and Henry. Both got the precious treatment by being handed youth development roles at their idolatry clubs, and both were offered or interviewed for big first time positions, Newcastle and Monaco. But both have also shown the willingness to develop their skills down in the MLS. Not making a point but both arguments can be used either way.

Spot on.

cricketfieldclarets wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 08, 2020 10:07 pm

thats why I said Les did OK as a coach. He WAS a coach. And did well. And now arguably has a better job.

Paul Ince hasnt been overlooked for a number of roles because of the colour of his skin. He managed many clubs and the higher up he got the worse he was. He got overlooked because he wasn't a good manager.

You honestly think in a multi million pound business where success brings huge riches, clubs would pick a white manager over a more suitable black one? Really?

No more research required.

Unlike you I am not pretending I know the answers. I am telling you what Paul Ince has said several times in interviews. I have no reason to think he is lying - but you who are “rarely wrong” must know that he is.

As for your last question - again you don’t really know what you are talking about. The people who are pushing for more equality are doing it across all the football leagues - not just the Premier League.

I have never said whether I think they have a case or not as I have not seen all the details of what they are saying or all the statistics around black players going for jobs etc - I have seen Ince, Barnes and Ferdinand talk about this though so I have an idea of the point they are trying to make.
I think the documentary I watched was which covered this was “Out of their skin” - it was more than one episode and shown on ITV.

There’s also a couple of in-depth university research studies been done on the subject - one was done by the University of Central Lancashire.

The biggest problem in all this is the people who are obsessed with the colour of people’s skin.
I don’t look at any team and count the white players as if it is a crime nor do I count the black players.
Respect for everyone should be the mantra .
Anything with the words matter in it is just toxic in my opinion

pushpinpussy wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 08, 2020 6:25 pm

I think the next manager of Burnley should be black, female and disabled. Keep everyone happy.

You forgot gay, you homophobic swine

ClaretMov wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 08, 2020 6:37 pm

Simple answer to all those questions.....They aren't good enough nothing else

That would be the hope.

That is easily addressed, if they are dedicated to learning.

Hidden 'exclusions' would be far more difficult to erase.

It is interesting that football clubs discriminate against black managers but not against black footballers. I do not think the stats are good regarding the number of black managers who get their clubs promoted- I can think of Chris Houghton at Brighton and maybe Keith Curle but are there many others?
Then having promoted their club were they poached to other clubs?
Because racism can be so subtle it is understandable that it will be thought to be everywhere when in fact it is not but without proper stats and looking at the percentage of black footballers 10 years ago who did their coaching badges and compare that with present day coaches and managers it is hard to even start.
I do predict having listened to him that Marvin Bartley will make it and would encourage anyone to listen to him.

Two other issues that need addressing.

1. Why are there so few black goalkeepers in the league?
2. Why are there so few goalkeepers go on to be managers?

Spike wrote: ↑

Thu Jul 09, 2020 9:22 am

Anything with the words matter in it is just toxic in my opinion

When you live on a culture where folk don't actually matter, to some in authority, or wider community, then something has to hight that injustice within humanity.

George Floyd's "I can't breathe" resonated. A knee in your neck, until dead, inflicted by a uniformed person, hired to protect you, sums up the need to highlight where society is blind to truth.

You’d have thought with the number of black players in the football league, they’d be far more black managers.

The one thing a disagree with entirely is bringing up and mentioning white ex players who have jobs eg Steven Gerrard and Frank Lampard. Frank even had to speak about it the other week.

mdd2 wrote: ↑

Thu Jul 09, 2020 9:34 am

It is interesting that football clubs discriminate against black managers but not against black footballers.

It’d be more interesting if they actually did.