ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

[dsr]

this is the issue when people use weasel words like, appears; same with many others sprinkled across many posts here, if, should, could, perhaps, maybe, etc.

What they really mean when you interpret them is "I don't know".

You can also include many well know weasel phrases, such as but not limited to "best endeavors", it's why we don't like them in contracts because they are "get out of" clauses.

Therefore, we are back to a line in the sand again because it's about opinions and guesses, WAG or SWAG through interpretation as to what the person wants to believe. I would categorically deny that is what ALK is offering, but that is just my opinion but it's based on a belief that a company such as the lenders would never agree to sign on, but I certainly can't prove that.

What I actually mean is "I don't know for certain". But when you take into account all the known facts, that Burnley FC used to have cash , that Burnley FC now are liable to pay a large loan, that money has been taken out of Burnley FC and found its way to Garlick and JohnB, and that this whole deal has been called into question very publicly and ALK do not deny its substance - there are enough facts to be going on with.

[Paul Waine]

Personally I don't read that as a strong rebuttal, it reads to me that the substance of the stories are correct but obviously each to their own. There is plenty of evidence out there that suggests the basis of the stories is correct: the MSD security, similar MSD loans to benchmark, the amended articles, etc. There's a significant grey area between the stories not being 100% correct and being guff.

It's also worth considering the calibre of journalists running those stories. They're all well known journalists with solid reputations in sports and business writing. They probably have more of a reputation to lose than Pace does.

Hi aggi, and yet none of these "well known journalists" refer to the £98 million equity paid into Kettering Capital. The only way I can see that the journos have "the substance of the stories correct" is if MSD have lent money to ALK for ALK to pay into Kettering Capital as equity. This doesn't make sense. Yes, lend money, as debt, to the business but, if MSD want equity then they can buy equity themselves.

Exciting times.

UTC

[aggi]

TP, are you saying that if cash is moved out of the club and into bank accounts not connected to the club, that the audited accounts will show the club as having the same assets as before the cash was moved out?

My response from the previous page:

They haven't taken any assets out in an overall sense. If they've taken cash out it's been replaced by a debt that someone, most likely one of the group companies, owes that money to the club.

[KateR]

We don't know without seeing the agreement, but that appears (sorry Kate!) to be the case from the press reports.

Edit: Actually I think that's if they don't pay the installments due to MG and co, not if they don't repay the money they've borrowed from the club.

No need to be sorry, everyone is allowed an opinion, in fact in this case I also think it's the same and it's another fail safe mechanism in some ways so a good thing, but some people won't view it that way as they think they have sold out and only care about one thing.

[Paul Waine]

Paul, we get it, you're excited. Please can you drop the "Exciting Times" at the end of each post. A lot of us are truly worried for "our" club and exciting is not the word I would use for it

UTC

Hi Zlatan, I think I'm trying to tell people that the "facts they worrying about" are not facts and they shouldn't worry.

Forgive me if I continue.

Exciting times.

UTC

[Devils_Advocate]

Hi aggi, and yet none of these "well known journalists" refer to the £98 million equity paid into Kettering Capital. The only way I can see that the journos have "the substance of the stories correct" is if MSD have lent money to ALK for ALK to pay into Kettering Capital as equity. This doesn't make sense. Yes, lend money, as debt, to the business but, if MSD want equity then they can buy equity themselves.

Exciting times.

UTC

Hi Paul, you've made a lot of posts but Im not sure what your actual view is of how much money ALK/Pace have invested of their own money and how much they have loaned.

Based on the information out there that you have had chance to cast your well trained eye over what do you think is the value of direct investment and the value of loaned investment?

[Zlatan]

Hi Zlatan, I think I'm trying to tell people that the "facts they worrying about" are not facts and they shouldn't worry.

Forgive me if I continue.

Exciting times.

UTC

whatever...

It's tedious and insulting to some of us

UTC

[Tall Paul]

I'm just trying to get you past the idea that "value" is represented only by a number on a balance sheet. Take it from me - £90m in hand is worth more than £90m in loans from someone who doesn't have any money.

I don't need to take it from you.

However, as I keep saying, no auditor will sign off the accounts as true and fair if they believe that that loan is not recoverable and worth materially less than £90m.

TP, are you saying that if cash is moved out of the club and into bank accounts not connected to the club, that the audited accounts will show the club as having the same assets as before the cash was moved out?

Yes, because the cash will have been replaced by another type of asset - a loan that needs to be repaid somewhere down the line.

[Paul Waine]

EDIT: Test successful.

[Chester Perry]

phew! I was worried there for a minute - but it is easy to see what the mods have done and understand why - so no complaints just thanks from me

[KateR]

What I actually mean is "I don't know for certain". But when you take into account all the known facts, that Burnley FC used to have cash , that Burnley FC now are liable to pay a large loan, that money has been taken out of Burnley FC and found its way to Garlick and JohnB, and that this whole deal has been called into question very publicly and ALK do not deny its substance - there are enough facts to be going on with.

the problem is you're now quoting facts that are unsubstantiated, yes we all know certain facts and there is no dispute, such as ALK being in charge, a loan has been used as part of the buy out.

What I don't believe is a fact is that there is no money in the bank and I would be very surprised if this were true.

I don't know if MG & JB have been paid out in full, I would be very surprised if this were true since we keep hearing about the "payments". Rather I believe/think they have promissory notes that are due at certain times. If ALK fail to pay, then a certain amount of shares will revert back and will continue in the vein until ALK no longer have control of the club, I also believe it will not be a quick payout in terms of a few months.

We then revert back to what I can also say I believe is something most of us can agree on, which is that ALK have a plan to improve the revenues/profits of BFC to such a point they can service a loan and pay off the previous owners. This is of course an unknown in terms of whether it's 100% accurate and if said plan will work. However, while the loan is secured through BFC assets, previous owners don't IMO have that luxury but will retain their previous share holding, plus whatever ALK paid as the opening payment to enter into this agreement.

This is where looking at the big picture and trying to rationalize why ALK would enter into this deal given the risks applies, because as we all (I think) agree the club overall has a lot more risk, but if you look at the previous few years where zero investment in players occurred, which if continued would likely result in relegation and selling our best players then perhaps todays risk is not that much greater than today's after all.

If you look at what ALK are really about, technology etc. then I do see BFC being their proving ground to increase sales and profits of that side of the business, what I don't know is will BFC see any of the cash from that, probably not but recruitment training, sell on will generate significant profits but long term. Getting the website right and enticing millions to come and buy BFC products can result in significant upturn in profit, this can be enhanced through player selection and therefore I anticipate we will see far more foreign players joining BFC as part of the drive for world wide recognition and supporter awareness increases. There are vast untapped resources, which the previous owners have never tried to enter into so the potential for now over last year is enormous but again and to reiterate yes that goes along with the additional risk, which MG & JB were never willing to attempt.

Now all this summation could be pie in the sky and in fact ALK are running some scheme to ruin BFC and sell off to some financial benefit but I don't see it but I can't guarantee no chance.

[Duffer_]

...but if you look at the previous few years where zero investment in players occurred, which if continued would likely result in relegation...

Yes, if only we had cash in the bank to make those signings. What, we did?

[KateR]

Yes, if only we had cash in the bank to make those signings. What, we did?

having something and using something is very different, cash in the bank in today's terms is not a good way to run any business, it should have been invested, not necessarily in first team players either but in something that improves the overall business, ohhh look, we have done

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Unless our style of play changes dramatically i think its very optimistic to think we're going to start attracting legions of new fans, even with the best marketing in the world.

Stay in the PL.
Keep improving the squad.
Keep on picking up the shock results like the win against Liverpool or the 3-2 over Chelsea.
The occasional foray into Europe.

Those things get you new fans, new internstional sponsorship deals.

Growing a fan base doesn't have to rely solely on a style of play.

[Duffer_]

having something and using something is very different, cash in the bank in today's terms is not a good way to run any business, it should have been invested, not necessarily in first team players either but in something that improves the overall business, ohhh look, we have done

OK, I'll leave it there. While people persist with the delusional nonsense that a debt from ALK is as good as cash, or even worse an 'improvement in the overall business', there really is no point engaging.

[Safron]

Stay in the PL.
Keep improving the squad.
Keep on picking up the shock results like the win against Liverpool or the 3-2 over Chelsea.
The occasional foray into Europe.

Those things get you new fans, new internstional sponsorship deals.

Growing a fan base doesn't have to rely solely on a style of play.

Improving the squad ha ha that gave me bellyache

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Improving the squad ha ha that gave me bellyache

It's been improved though.
So what if we have a quiet transfer window now and again, if we get our dealings correct then we aren't obliged to sign for the sake of it.
Our dealings thus far have been pretty spot on in the main.

[Elizabeth]

I haven't seen the relevant agreements either so can't answer in any great detail, but yes ultimately I expect that the club will end up paying off ALK's borrowings. Whether that's when they eventually sell the club or as an ongoing thing, I don't know.

The hope is that they can generate enough additional revenue to do so without ending up like one of the basket case clubs in the lower leagues. Big risk imo.

Thanks Paul, that was how I saw it and it does not make me feel well.
I was happy the way the club was being run but guessed one day the two main shareholders would come looking for their money from selling the club. With the risk this sale has brought I can hardly stomach the thought of the two of them still in the boardroom.
Having potentially an exciting journey ahead of us over the next few years will not make up for the explosion when the bubble bursts.
The thought that little northern town Burnley can sustain a place with the elite is not one that sits comfortably with me when you hear about the ambitions of the top teams in the PL

[DomBFC1882]

It's been improved though.
So what if we have a quiet transfer window now and again, if we get our dealings correct then we aren't obliged to sign for the sake of it.
Our dealings thus far have been pretty spot on in the main.

When did we last improve the starting 11? Genuine question.

The players we have previously signed won't get us new fans with the style of play.

[Zlatan]

is this some sort of in the know joke at others expense?

in joke.JPG (31.26 KiB) Viewed 2121 times

[Devils_Advocate]

is this some sort of in the know joke at others expense?

in joke.JPG

The thread was locked momentarily. Maybe the Mods were clearing out some unacceptable stuff. I think Paul was the first to post when the lock disappeared hence the testing post

[GodIsADeeJay81]

When did we last improve the starting 11? Genuine question.

The players we have previously signed won't get us new fans with the style of play.

We sign 4 different types of players.

1 - future prospect to develop - Pope for example.

2- someone who can drop straight into the starting 11 - Cork

3- players approaching the end of their career but who can still be useful and is generally a decent bloke to ensure dressing room harmony - Pieters

4 - squad fillers initially, but they can step up when needed and will eventually become first choice - Westwood.

Those players are being added to with youth players now.

Not every single signing is about improving the starting 11...

[DomBFC1882]

We sign 4 different types of players.

1 - future prospect to develop - Pope for example.

2- someone who can drop straight into the starting 11 - Cork

3- players approaching the end of their career but who can still be useful and is generally a decent bloke to ensure dressing room harmony - Pieters

4 - squad fillers initially, but they can step up when needed and will eventually become first choice - Westwood.

Those players are being added to with youth players now.

Not every single signing is about improving the starting 11...

It is when you're trying to get new fans on board. Its all about the here and now.

Teams like Leeds, Villa, Leicester are better to watch for the neutral not us

[GodIsADeeJay81]

It is when you're trying to get new fans on board. Its all about the here and now.

Teams like Leeds, Villa, Leicester are better to watch for the neutral not us

Short term thinking again I see.

Having a squad of 25 first team players all demanding to start does what for the harmony?
That's why we do it this way.

Leicester have spent massive amounts of money for many years now to find a way to get to the here and now as you like to call it.

Same with Villa and their amusing collapse and falling out of the PL not that long ago and last season they just stayed up, partly due that error with Hawkeye.

Leeds - well we all know their journey and they didn't play pretty football all the way.

All 3 clubs have been well backed financially, or did you forget that?

[DomBFC1882]

Short term thinking again I see.

Having a squad of 25 first team players all demanding to start does what for the harmony?
That's why we do it this way.

Leicester have spent massive amounts of money for many years now to find a way to get to the here and now as you like to call it.

Same with Villa and their amusing collapse and falling out of the PL not that long ago and last season they just stayed up, partly due that error with Hawkeye.

Leeds - well we all know their journey and they didn't play pretty football all the way.

All 3 clubs have been well backed financially, or did you forget that?

Liverpool and other clubs seem to have good harmony amongst their squad despite larger numbers so I'm not having that.

As regards my thinking, of course its short term as we're in the Premier league. We're definitely not guaranteed to be here in 3 years time say. You can kiss goodbye to a global audience once we suffer relegation.

As for Leicester, they've recouped massive money from the likes of Chilwell, Maguire, Kante, Drinkwater etc so I'm not having that. Only this past 18 months they have increased their spendibg

[Elizabeth]

Hi Zlatan, I think I'm trying to tell people that the "facts they worrying about" are not facts and they shouldn't worry.

Forgive me if I continue.

Exciting times.

UTC

Paul , are you sure you know so much about this deal?

I agree with Zlatan , your inspiring finale is now outdated , I’m sorry to say

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Liverpool and other clubs seem to have good harmony amongst their squad despite larger numbers so I'm not having that.

As regards my thinking, of course its short term as we're in the Premier league. We're definitely not guaranteed to be here in 3 years time say. You can kiss goodbye to a global audience once we suffer relegation.

As for Leicester, they've recouped massive money from the likes of Chilwell, Maguire, Kante, Drinkwater etc so I'm not having that. Only this past 18 months they have increased their spendibg

Liverpool don't have 25 players expecting to start though, so I'm not ever sure why you went there.. .

Leicester have only recently been selling for big money after years of spending a lot more.

You have to look past a relegation and see the planning for coming back up if we go down.
Getting international sponsors whilst in the PL on more than a season long deal, then the money is still there if we go down to help us out.

Think bigger than we are now, think with a more modern approach than we've had.

It's a big world for money making and Burnley have sat in their little corner with more localised in ground advertising deals etc and that won't get us anywhere.

[DomBFC1882]

Liverpool don't have 25 players expecting to start though, so I'm not ever sure why you went there.. .

Leicester have only recently been selling for big money after years of spending a lot more.

You have to look past a relegation and see the planning for coming back up if we go down.
Getting international sponsors whilst in the PL on more than a season long deal, then the money is still there if we go down to help us out.

Think bigger than we are now, think with a more modern approach than we've had.

It's a big world for money making and Burnley have sat in their little corner with more localised in ground advertising deals etc and that won't get us anywhere.

But they have a bench full of players good enough to start. We definitely don't. Look at the bench tonight.

I do admire your optimism but being honest if we go down with this amount of debt we're well and truly snookered. Hoping to get a few academy players to step up and be good enough is a long shot in itself with Dyche in charge

[Newcastleclaret93]

It's been improved though.
So what if we have a quiet transfer window now and again, if we get our dealings correct then we aren't obliged to sign for the sake of it.
Our dealings thus far have been pretty spot on in the main.

The squad right now is the worst it has been since 17-18 season.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

But they have a bench full of players good enough to start. We definitely don't. Look at the bench tonight.

I do admire your optimism but being honest if we go down with this amount of debt we're well and truly snookered. Hoping to get a few academy players to step up and be good enough is a long shot in itself with Dyche in charge

Stop thinking small.

Until you do that, you'll never see the potential for growth.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

The squad right now is the worst it has been since 17-18 season.

I ain't even wasting my time with Mr negative outlook....

[DomBFC1882]

Stop thinking small.

Until you do that, you'll never see the potential for growth.

I just live in reality mate

[Newcastleclaret93]

I ain't even wasting my time with Mr negative outlook....

Its called being realistic. In that season we had two players for every position, with some real quality in the team.

You are obviously the type of person that is blindly optimistic regardless of the situation. I have seen a few of your posts over the last few days and you don’t even seem to be cautious about the takeover. Let’s see what happens in the long run with ALK, I just don’t know what it is but I don’t trust a word that comes out of Pace’s mouth.

[joey13]

Its called being realistic. In that season we had two players for every position, with some real quality in the team.

You are obviously the type of person that is blindly optimistic regardless of the situation. I have seen a few of your posts over the last few days and you don’t even seem to be cautious about the takeover. Let’s see what happens in the long run with ALK, I just don’t know what it is but I don’t trust a word that comes out of Pace’s mouth.

The smiling snake oil salesman springs to mind .

[DomBFC1882]

I ain't even wasting my time with Mr negative outlook....

Imo as long as Dyche is in charge I can never see us growing with youth. He's not going to change his managerial style completely which has brought him/us so much success.

I don't want Dyche to leave and if he did then surely that would be a big negative. That's my point regarding the vision of bringing youth/academy players through.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

I just live in reality mate

A small thinking one yes.

Think bigger, that's what any business has to do to grow.
Burnley haven't done for a while in regards to revenue growth and they've been missing out as a result.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Imo as long as Dyche is in charge I can never see us growing with youth. He's not going to change his managerial style completely which has brought him/us so much success.

I don't want Dyche to leave and if he did then surely that would be a big negative. That's my point regarding the vision of bringing youth/academy players through.

Dyche hasn't had much youth to call upon until recently and in all fairness they've been getting minutes on the pitch.
We aren't going to grow just with youth, no one has said that so your comment is odd.

If Dyche left yes it would be a negative but that could be overcome with the state of the club if it continues to grow.
He won't be here forever.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Its called being realistic. In that season we had two players for every position, with some real quality in the team.

You are obviously the type of person that is blindly optimistic regardless of the situation. I have seen a few of your posts over the last few days and you don’t even seem to be cautious about the takeover. Let’s see what happens in the long run with ALK, I just don’t know what it is but I don’t trust a word that comes out of Pace’s mouth.

Better than being blindly negative and as for seeing what happens in the long run, don't make me laugh, there are some on here who want results now, improvements now, they're thinking short term.

Even Pace has said its a 5yr plan minimum, yet you won't believe anything he says, so like I said, you're Mr Negative and that's the last we will talk on this matter.

[DomBFC1882]

A small thinking one yes.

Think bigger, that's what any business has to do to grow.
Burnley haven't done for a while in regards to revenue growth and they've been missing out as a result.

Not at all. What exactly do you think we can achieve what we haven't already in the Premier league?

We can't improve on the 7th place finish no matter how optimistic you are so not sure what you think the next level is.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Not at all. What exactly do you think we can achieve what we haven't already in the Premier league?

We can't improve on the 7th place finish no matter how optimistic you are so not sure what you think the next level is.

Are you purposely being dense?

Increase revenue - larger sponsorship deals, with businesses that are national and international.
Attract international attention from football fans to grow the fan base worldwide.
Improve club operations.
Attract better youth players.

Longer Cup runs and more forays into European football.

Think big, you aren't because you're not really trying and it's both bizarre and hilarious.

[Newcastleclaret93]

Not at all. What exactly do you think we can achieve what we haven't already in the Premier league?

We can't improve on the 7th place finish no matter how optimistic you are so not sure what you think the next level is.

Literally no point having a conversation with that user. He thinks we are going to be the next Man City and just shames people that want to know Paces business plan.

[DomBFC1882]

Are you purposely being dense?

Increase revenue - larger sponsorship deals, with businesses that are national and international.
Attract international attention from football fans to grow the fan base worldwide.
Improve club operations.
Attract better youth players.

Longer Cup runs and more forays into European football.

Think big, you aren't because you're not really trying and it's both bizarre and hilarious.

And you're being extremely naive thinking all of these are both realistic and achievable.

For everything you have mentioned, staying in the Premier league (yes that's short term) is the most important of all.

Success in terms of trophies or playing good football attracts fans nothing else.

And ill ask again seeing as you've ignored the point, do you think Dyche will be happy to neglect his style and transfer policy to suit the owners by bringing more youth players through? Or are you planning for Dyche to leave during this "project"?

An answer would be lovely

[Elizabeth]

Dyche hasn't had much youth to call upon until recently and in all fairness they've been getting minutes on the pitch.
We aren't going to grow just with youth, no one has said that so your comment is odd.

If Dyche left yes it would be a negative but that could be overcome with the state of the club if it continues to grow.
He won't be here forever.

How do you see us growing ?

[DCWat]

How do you see us growing ?

Now there’s an interesting question. I’ve seen a lot of criticising everyone else and accusing people of being dense, but nothing of substance.

[DomBFC1882]

Now there’s an interesting question. I’ve seen a lot of criticising everyone else and accusing people of being dense, but nothing of substance.

Precisely. Accuses others but has no meat on the bone himself

[GodIsADeeJay81]

And you're being extremely naive thinking all of these are both realistic and achievable.

For everything you have mentioned, staying in the Premier league (yes that's short term) is the most important of all.

Success in terms of trophies or playing good football attracts fans nothing else.

And ill ask again seeing as you've ignored the point, do you think Dyche will be happy to neglect his style and transfer policy to suit the owners by bringing more youth players through? Or are you planning for Dyche to leave during this "project"?

An answer would be lovely

Eh?

Dyche plays this style because it fits our budget.
When we had Defour we played a much better style, despite stupid comments on here to the contrary and we got into Europe on the back of it.

Now if we can improve our scouting, find better players at good prices like other clubs do, Inc clubs in the league below us, then we will grow as a team and improve our league position more often.

You're trying to back me into a corner over youth players, but let's be fair you're not able to do that because I'll just side step it quite easily.

We've spent a lot on our academy so we can have a better quality of younger players coming through and that's starting to happen slowly, despite some on here being unable to see it.

No one is saying that's all Dyche is going to be allowed to use, apart from you because you're trying to back me into a corner.
The owners want to see more youth, but they'll also be trying to find better players at good prices using modern scouting tech.

The only naive one in this chat is you, believing we can't grow the revenue streams with better people at the club who've got vastly more experience in this area.

I know a world wide marketing director who could do it and she isn't even remotely interested in football, but she doesn't have to be because her expertise is marketing products.

That's why you're not thinking big, because you don't want to believe it could happen.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Now there’s an interesting question. I’ve seen a lot of criticising everyone else and accusing people of being dense, but nothing of substance.

I've made numerous comments on this, as have others like Darthlaw.
If people aren't going to bother reading or learning how businesses grow revenue streams, how many times should I repeat myself?

The basics of revenue expansion apply to any business, the level it reaches depends on who's task it it.

You want substance, look at Utd and how they did it over the years.
Maybe look at Leeds because they're about to embark on a similar project to improve their revenue streams to enable them to keep up with the big boys.
Sheff Utd have gone into partnerships with other clubs, as have Leicester.

We are playing catch up but at least we're finally about to enter the game at long last

[DomBFC1882]

Eh?

Dyche plays this style because it fits our budget.
When we had Defour we played a much better style, despite stupid comments on here to the contrary and we got into Europe on the back of it.

Now if we can improve our scouting, find better players at good prices like other clubs do, Inc clubs in the league below us, then we will grow as a team and improve our league position more often.

You're trying to back me into a corner over youth players, but let's be fair you're not able to do that because I'll just side step it quite easily.

We've spent a lot on our academy so we can have a better quality of younger players coming through and that's starting to happen slowly, despite some on here being unable to see it.

No one is saying that's all Dyche is going to be allowed to use, apart from you because you're trying to back me into a corner.
The owners want to see more youth, but they'll also be trying to find better players at good prices using modern scouting tech.

The only naive one in this chat is you, believing we can't grow the revenue streams with better people at the club who've got vastly more experience in this area.

I know a world wide marketing director who could do it and she isn't even remotely interested in football, but she doesn't have to be because her expertise is marketing products.

That's why you're not thinking big, because you don't want to believe it could happen.

Thinking big, tell me what is that exactly?

All your buzz words mean nothing, its results on the pitch what matters to the fans. Many owners who have taken over clubs, including them lot down the road, used buzz words like you but failed to deliver. Why you think we'll be any different is baffling let alone improve on our 7th place finish.

I could think big by thinking Burnley are going to win the Premier league. Sound good? Yes. Realistic? No

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Precisely. Accuses others but has no meat on the bone himself

Get lost

It isn't my fault your a small minded person who can't see how to grow a business.

[Papabendi]

Remember also, we are getting additional dedicated resource to help grow the club, not a chairman and directors who do it in their spare time.