ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

[ClaretPete001]

That’s just my personal take on things, I’m in no way a financial wizz like some who have a far more knowledgeable take on things.

Where di you get the 20 * £7 million from...?

[aggi]

Links for those who are interested

https://find-and-update.company-informa ... ng-history

Yes, Velocity Capital (UK) Holdings Ltd is 100% owned by Velocity Sports Limited (Jersey)

The question still remains, will Kettering Capital Limited and Calder Vale Holdings Limited ever produce accounts before they are dissolved?

Are we to assume that Calder Vale Holdings Limited has paid off its £114.8m of debt to the club? and if so how?

I had a quick look to see whether they could be dissolved without filing accounts and it wasn't that clear. There's no statutory requirement to file accounts when being dissolved, you have to file with HMRC but not Companies House. I don't know if there is a requirement to catch up on overdue accounts though (although realistically it would have to be a penalty imposed on the directors rather than the company).

I'd assume that the debt is over with Velocity Capital now but who knows.

[Holtyclaret]

Where di you get the 20 * £7 million from...?

Absolute fag packet math;

20 places in a group of minor investors . I’m taking the public takers in this investment group as jj and Dude Perfect. I have heard JJ invested between £6 and 9m, the most common figure I heard was £7m.

20 x £7m if all places sold.

The investors will be looking at what that £7m may become in a number of years time.

Add to this sky money, players sales, all sorts of increased commercial revenue streams, buying a raft of young talent and parachute money etc.. just makes me believe that we can take a developmental dip to the championship if the worst happens.

I’m far far less knowledgeable than most posting on here.

[Chester Perry]

It was supposed to be in place as of October 31 2021 but a little ove 25 months later it is actually going to happen - though not in the way I envisioned it. Small Shareholders have the opportunity to sell their shares on Asset Match - via auction

BFC Asset Match.JPG (121.03 KiB) Viewed 5499 times

[Chester Perry]

Absolute fag packet math;

20 places in a group of minor investors . I’m taking the public takers in this investment group as jj and Dude Perfect. I have heard JJ invested between £6 and 9m, the most common figure I heard was £7m.

20 x £7m if all places sold.

The investors will be looking at what that £7m may become in a number of years time.

Add to this sky money, players sales, all sorts of increased commercial revenue streams, buying a raft of young talent and parachute money etc.. just makes me believe that we can take a developmental dip to the championship if the worst happens.

I’m far far less knowledgeable than most posting on here.

The concept of this numbers of co-owners and the relatively minor holdings is one that has been in relative acceptance for some time (it is entirely possible the number of co-owners is even greater)- the sums you suggest appear speculative, but you may be party to information I and others do not have.

The only ways that any investment monies in ALK/VSL can be added to club funds is via a new share issue (which has to be opened to all shareholders which has not happened) a loan to the club or by a repayment of loans taken by Calder Vale Holdings Limited (which otherwise may have been transferred to Velocity Capital (UK) Holdings Ltd.

The hope is that a sizeable repayment of some/all of the monies loaned to Calder Vale Holdings has occurred - why else put £88m into Calder Vale Holdings in late September 2023. What remains unknown is if the majority of that sum was passed to Velocity Capital (UK) Holdings in October 2023 or if that was a separate sum (the latter indicating a pool of £167.7m on top of the circa £64m total they have spent on shares from their own funds - if we assume that ALK/VSL and not the club paid the final instalment in July from the original sale.

as for the growth in asset value that has been a point of discussion for some time and I am on record in saying that I believe that ALK/VSL are working to a plan they expect will give them a £300m - £500m growth in asset value in a few years

[steve1264b]

What's your take on this chester?

Will be interesting to if there is any trading, and at what price.

Do you think this is Pace et al going to mop up more shares and force it into private ownership?

[Paul Waine]

What's your take on this chester?

Will be interesting to if there is any trading, and at what price.

Do you think this is Pace et al going to mop up more shares and force it into private ownership?

Hi steve, I've made a few comments on the other thread you started.

Be great if mods will merge on here.

As I said on the other thread, Burnley Football Club Holdings Limited is a private company, it is already in "private ownership." That's why something like Asset Match is suggested to trade the shares.

[Paul Waine]

The only ways that any investment monies in ALK/VSL can be added to club funds is via a new share issue (which has to be opened to all shareholders which has not happened)

Are you sure new equity needs to be "opened to all shareholders" CT? I've seen a number of private companies bring in new equity without opening the new shares to all shareholders.

[Chester Perry]

What's your take on this chester?

Will be interesting to if there is any trading, and at what price.

Do you think this is Pace et al going to mop up more shares and force it into private ownership?

It is not your standard share trading as we know it - and the details/rules of the auction are not known to me

I will say that it is something that was promised to the small shareholders on October 4 2021 - it has taken way too long, but at least it is now available

Does it allow Pace and co to understand what price people are prepared to pay for a share in the club - hard to say given that any buyer should know that the holding that ALK/VSL already has, allows them or any future owner to compulsory purchase when they chose. Though that may lead to some financial speculation by some who believe there is a good return awaiting them down the line

Just a bit a whimsy on my part but we know that the Glazer model has been followed by Burnley's owners - what about a part flotation (maybe of a new lower class of share) if the price achieved is stronger than the £1,699 per share that was paid in March 2022 (albeit with the 50% club credit)

[Chester Perry]

Are you sure new equity needs to be "opened to all shareholders" CT? I've seen a number of private companies bring in new equity without opening the new shares to all shareholders.

It is what I have been told, I cannot remember if it is in the articles one way or the other.

[NewClaret]

The concept of this numbers of co-owners and the relatively minor holdings is one that has been in relative acceptance for some time (it is entirely possible the number of co-owners is even greater)- the sums you suggest appear speculative, but you may be party to information I and others do not have.

The only ways that any investment monies in ALK/VSL can be added to club funds is via a new share issue (which has to be opened to all shareholders which has not happened) a loan to the club or by a repayment of loans taken by Calder Vale Holdings Limited (which otherwise may have been transferred to Velocity Capital (UK) Holdings Ltd.

The hope is that a sizeable repayment of some/all of the monies loaned to Calder Vale Holdings has occurred - why else put £88m into Calder Vale Holdings in late September 2023. What remains unknown is if the majority of that sum was passed to Velocity Capital (UK) Holdings in October 2023 or if that was a separate sum (the latter indicating a pool of £167.7m on top of the circa £64m total they have spent on shares from their own funds - if we assume that ALK/VSL and not the club paid the final instalment in July from the original sale.

as for the growth in asset value that has been a point of discussion for some time and I am on record in saying that I believe that ALK/VSL are working to a plan they expect will give them a £300m - £500m growth in asset value in a few years

Re your 3rd paragraph, let’s hope it’s the latter

[ClaretPete001]

The concept of this numbers of co-owners and the relatively minor holdings is one that has been in relative acceptance for some time (it is entirely possible the number of co-owners is even greater)- the sums you suggest appear speculative, but you may be party to information I and others do not have.

The only ways that any investment monies in ALK/VSL can be added to club funds is via a new share issue (which has to be opened to all shareholders which has not happened) a loan to the club or by a repayment of loans taken by Calder Vale Holdings Limited (which otherwise may have been transferred to Velocity Capital (UK) Holdings Ltd.

The hope is that a sizeable repayment of some/all of the monies loaned to Calder Vale Holdings has occurred - why else put £88m into Calder Vale Holdings in late September 2023. What remains unknown is if the majority of that sum was passed to Velocity Capital (UK) Holdings in October 2023 or if that was a separate sum (the latter indicating a pool of £167.7m on top of the circa £64m total they have spent on shares from their own funds - if we assume that ALK/VSL and not the club paid the final instalment in July from the original sale.

as for the growth in asset value that has been a point of discussion for some time and I am on record in saying that I believe that ALK/VSL are working to a plan they expect will give them a £300m - £500m growth in asset value in a few years

£500 million growth? Love reading your stuff Chester but I think it was Carl Sagan who said 'extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence'.

[Chester Perry]

£500 million growth? Love reading your stuff Chester but I think it was Carl Sagan who said 'extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence'.

I gave a range and It is not necessarily what I think but it is in line with what most of the American investors have as expectations - the largest part of that growth will come from the nuanced levels of data and how it is used to target on behalf of commercial partners - the conversion of everything at the club to being (only - eventually) available to electronic means is just the initial starting point, the back office developments are still in progress and will be contimually refined.

I have been posting about this type of thing (mainly on the MMT) for some time now

[aggi]

Are you sure new equity needs to be "opened to all shareholders" CT? I've seen a number of private companies bring in new equity without opening the new shares to all shareholders.

Given that BFC Holdings was incorporated under CA 2006 I don't think there is a requirement to offer them to all shareholders.

However, I think there does need to be a special resolution to issue them (which they could pass with their shareholding but would need to be filled). It's not my area of expertise though so I could be wrong.

[aggi]

I gave a range and It is not necessarily what I think but it is in line with what most of the American investors have as expectations - the largest part of that growth will come from the nuanced levels of data and how it is used to target on behalf of commercial partners - the conversion of everything at the club to being (only - eventually) available to electronic means is just the initial starting point, the back office developments are still in progress and will be contimually refined.

I have been posting about this type of thing (mainly on the MMT) for some time now

The main growth is going to be due to getting dragged along with the rest of the premier league and, possibly, player trading.

There might be a bit of monetisation in other areas but I can't see it getting to the same kind of level as those two.

[Chester Perry]

The main growth is going to be due to getting dragged along with the rest of the premier league and, possibly, player trading.

There might be a bit of monetisation in other areas but I can't see it getting to the same kind of level as those two.

The idea is to get the revenue multiple up re the asset value - in tech it is many more times revenue to football clubs like ours have struggled to get past a 1.5 multiple - it is as much about re-classifying the nature of the business as anything - this is what the American sport franchises have done, achieving asset value multiples of 7 -10 times revenue almost as a norm.

[aggi]

The idea is to get the revenue multiple up re the asset value - in tech it is many more times revenue to football clubs like ours have struggled to get past a 1.5 multiple - it is as much about re-classifying the nature of the business as anything - this is what the American sport franchises have done, achieving asset value multiples of 7 -10 times revenue almost as a norm.

I think attempting to convince investors that a football team is a tech company is a bit optimistic (and reminds me a bit of some of the things 777 have been saying), it's the underlying financials and business area that are driving those multiples.

I'd agree there is some space there to up the multiple compared to the US but there are some very fundamental differences that drive a lot of it.

The obvious is the scarcity value. You have a very limited number of franchises, you can't buy a lower league Leicester and win the league there. Linked to that is the much less volatile revenue, you don't have risks of relegation or failing to qualify for the Champions League and the drastic loss of revenue, US sports is a much less risky proposition.

On top of that, you're competing in a much smaller pool for players (as no-one else seriously plays the sports in most cases) which means you can have a salary cap. Dallas Cowboys have something like 20% of revenue as wages, Man Utd have 50%, Preston have 175%. You've got certainty over what is the most crippling cost for football teams.

Add to that the stadiums in the US are often taxpayer funded which takes away another big cost (and if that subsidy isn't to your liking you can always threaten to up sticks and move somewhere else).

A bit of tech may help a little bit but there are far bigger drivers than that for the disparity between US and European values.

[ClaretPete001]

I think Aggi beat me to it and absolutely no criticism of your ideas Chester - it's interesting to hear a counter argument and the current fashionable thinking in football business.

But all Americans can't be completely dim. American Sports operates on a Franchise model in enormous metro areas with no relegation. It isn't the same as a very competitive 92 club league with relegation in towns that are barely bigger than a pimple on a fleas bottom.

The Venky's have to throw in more than Rovers' whole turnover to keep the club competitive in the Championship.

The commercial revenue dropped significantly in the last set of accounts.

Where are they going to find 20 people with £7 million to throw into a proposition where you can be in league 1 in two years as likely as stay in the PL with (as been posted on here) no controlling shares and precious little input?

Either the Americans completely change Sport in Europe or one or two are going to get rinsed.

[steve1264b]

Ive been surprised how little we have increased sponsorship from USA corporate companies.

There are a number of blue chip ones in Utah for example.

I wonder if JJ Watt has a clause giving him an incentive to create interest.

This is the one thing i expected to happen.

[Boss Hogg]

How far forward will ALK have taken us once we are back in the Championship next season, from when they took over ? Some saleable assets ( but not worth as much as if we stayed in the PL), a younger squad but a whole load of debt and having to do it all again ( far far from guaranteed).

[GodIsADeeJay81]

How far forward will ALK have taken us once we are back in the Championship next season, from when they took over ? Some saleable assets ( but not worth as much as if we stayed in the PL), a younger squad but a whole load of debt and having to do it all again ( far far from guaranteed).

Increase in revenue streams
Overhauled the social media side of the business, putting us firmly in the spotlight there during transfer windows
Younger manager
Younger squad on long contracts

Long term vision for the club

[Chester Perry]

I came across an astonishing valuation of Brentford in this article - £500m!! with Bloomberg suggesting clubs go for four to 6 times revenue - the biggest clubs maybe, but Brentford - we went for less than 1.4 times with $80m of cash reserves to help the bidders - outs ide the big 6 anyone getting 1.5 to 2 times revenue has historically done very well

Premier League’s Big Data Success Story Brentford Open to Deal
https://archive.ph/CiXqR

[Vegas Claret]

I think Aggi beat me to it and absolutely no criticism of your ideas Chester - it's interesting to hear a counter argument and the current fashionable thinking in football business.

But all Americans can't be completely dim. American Sports operates on a Franchise model in enormous metro areas with no relegation. It isn't the same as a very competitive 92 club league with relegation in towns that are barely bigger than a pimple on a fleas bottom.

The Venky's have to throw in more than Rovers' whole turnover to keep the club competitive in the Championship.

The commercial revenue dropped significantly in the last set of accounts.

Where are they going to find 20 people with £7 million to throw into a proposition where you can be in league 1 in two years as likely as stay in the PL with (as been posted on here) no controlling shares and precious little input?

Either the Americans completely change Sport in Europe or one or two are going to get rinsed.

7 million quid to some Americans is like 50p to me and you. There are some incredibly wealthy people over here, they won't even notice 7 million.

[Vegas Claret]

Ive been surprised how little we have increased sponsorship from USA corporate companies.

There are a number of blue chip ones in Utah for example.

I wonder if JJ Watt has a clause giving him an incentive to create interest.

This is the one thing i expected to happen.

he has stated on a few occasions that one of his remits was to find new investors

[Quickenthetempo]

Increase in revenue streams
Overhauled the social media side of the business, putting us firmly in the spotlight there during transfer windows
Younger manager
Younger squad on long contracts

Long term vision for the club

I do admire your loyalty to these Americans, once you picked your side.

At the minute, younger manager is poorer manager.
Younger squad is poorer squad.
Apart from putting all prices up for fans, what revenue has increased?

What's the long term vision? Is it 3 years in charge now?
There's far more worse at the club than better since they came.

[NewClaret]

How far forward will ALK have taken us once we are back in the Championship next season, from when they took over ? Some saleable assets ( but not worth as much as if we stayed in the PL), a younger squad but a whole load of debt and having to do it all again ( far far from guaranteed).

What’s this whole load of debt you speak of? I don’t think anyone knows what that is, do they?

Out of interest, what’s your views on the £168m deposited in the holding companies recently?

[aggi]

What’s this whole load of debt you speak of? I don’t think anyone knows what that is, do they?

Out of interest, what’s your views on the £168m deposited in the holding companies recently?

My first view would be that it probably isn't £168m and you're likely doing some double counting.

[aggi]

How far forward will ALK have taken us once we are back in the Championship next season, from when they took over ? Some saleable assets ( but not worth as much as if we stayed in the PL), a younger squad but a whole load of debt and having to do it all again ( far far from guaranteed).

We were going to go down at some point, whether it be under Garlick or ALK or A.N. Other.

We handled going down very well with a refreshed team and going straight back up again.

Going down obviously isn't ideal from a business point of view we would be in one of the stronger positions you would hope. But there's always a risk being a yo-yo club.

[NewClaret]

My first view would be that it probably isn't £168m and you're likely doing some double counting.

Quite possibly.

But regardless, £88m or £168m are incredible sums of money that at least give question to whether any net debt exists at all. But staggers me that fans talk about debt as if it’s fact when actually we know very little about it, other than, if any does exist, it’s not secured on the club so somebody is taking a huge risk (and therefore must be pretty comfortable with the plans).

[dsr]

Quite possibly.

But regardless, £88m or £168m are incredible sums of money that at least give question to whether any net debt exists at all. But staggers me that fans talk about debt as if it’s fact when actually we know very little about it, other than, if any does exist, it’s not secured on the club so somebody is taking a huge risk (and therefore must be pretty comfortable with the plans).

Burnley FC owed its owners (not sure exactly how the complex ownership structure works, but basically it owed an Alan Pace company) nothing as at July 2022. That isn't the issue.

The issue is that Alan Pace's companies owe Burnley FC £115m as at July 2022 and we have no reason to believe they have repaid any. Have you any reason to believe that? Alan Pace's companies are not legally obliged to pay it back, and if they don't, the club is probably insolvent. The July 2023 accounts will tell us more, but the directors, based on past form, won't let that be made public until the very last legal moment - next April, or possibly July if they find an excuse to delay.

Remember that first and foremost, these investors are in it for money. Not for the good of the club.

[CoolClaret]

I do admire your loyalty to these Americans, once you picked your side.

At the minute, younger manager is poorer manager.
Younger squad is poorer squad.
Apart from putting all prices up for fans, what revenue has increased?

What's the long term vision? Is it 3 years in charge now?
There's far more worse at the club than better since they came.

Sidney seems to think that twitter clicks = 'increased revenue streams'

Didn't we have our largest ever shirt sponsorship with Laba bet a few years back in 2018 or something?

Certianly don't have increased revenue streams playing in the Champ - that's for certain.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

I do admire your loyalty to these Americans, once you picked your side.

At the minute, younger manager is poorer manager.
Younger squad is poorer squad.
Apart from putting all prices up for fans, what revenue has increased?

What's the long term vision? Is it 3 years in charge now?
There's far more worse at the club than better since they came.

Loyalty or just plain common sense, which is lacking on here at times

Sponsorship revenue will show a definite increase , because under the previous owners it wasn’t going up fast enough

Far more worse?
The squad isn’t being allowed to age and not have significant money spent on it and that was one of the biggest issues we had

The younger manager is still on a learning curve, trying to keep loyal to his style of play etc
All managers have to learn, Dyche did after his first season in the PL and this is what Kompany is doing
You either throw what he’s doing in the bin and sack him or you hold firm and follow the plan through

If we sack him, we have to go through this all over again, new manager, new style, overhaul squad to suit said style etc

It isn’t all going to click straight away, we know that because we’ve been through this before, but some people have short memories and a sense of entitlement

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Sidney seems to think that twitter clicks = 'increased revenue streams'

Didn't we have our largest ever shirt sponsorship with Laba bet a few years back in 2018 or something?

Certianly don't have increased revenue streams playing in the Champ - that's for certain.

I was proven right about social media and its benefits but we can go over it again if you’re struggling to understand the benefits of it

The long term plan isn’t to be in the Championship, it’s to grow the club, have a young squad playing good football and become a club where younger players would want to come so they could use us as a stepping stone etc
Then eventually they’ll sell the club to a richer owner

Here’s an idea, you tell me who you want to replace Kompany with
Then tell us how long you’d give that manager, the parameters you’d set in place and the length of time you’d give them to achieve the goals you’ve set in place

Give us your long term vision for the club and how you think it will get there

Then we can discuss that because all I see are people with short term thinking, no patience and a desire to change things when it gets even a little bit tough

[CoolClaret]

I was proven right about social media and its benefits but we can go over it again if you’re struggling to understand the benefits of it

The long term plan isn’t to be in the Championship, it’s to grow the club, have a young squad playing good football and become a club where younger players would want to come so they could use us as a stepping stone etc
Then eventually they’ll sell the club to a richer owner

Here’s an idea, you tell me who you want to replace Kompany with
Then tell us how long you’d give that manager, the parameters you’d set in place and the length of time you’d give them to achieve the goals you’ve set in place

Give us your long term vision for the club and how you think it will get there

Then we can discuss that because all I see are people with short term thinking, no patience and a desire to change things when it gets even a little bit tough

Proven right about what? Haven't been 'proven right' about anything.

My long term vision for the club is for it to be healthy, exist and make the town/surrounding areas and supporters proud.

I absolutely do not want this club to be viewed as a stepping stone and have a new random XI out every season/otherseason at all because that's how you end up with players in that don't really give a **** and have absolutely 0 connection with the fan base - it's already looking that way with some of the lacklustre performances that we've had this season.

I don't want to necessrily replace VK - I wouldn't mind replacing ALK though.

I want players that want to be here for a long time and wear the shirt with pride - I want owners that are bothered about long term strategy/investment into things that won't necessarily offer an immediate short/medium term ROI.

Rather than dumping obscene money into a ton of young players from here there and everywhere and seeing what **** hits the wall I'd rather we use that to invest heavily into a scouting network... A proper one - not just people sat at their computers looking at some BS metric as to why player X will be worth it.

If we are to stick with this current plan then I'd like to see more people that have been involved in succesful recruitment brought on board and not have the entire clubs recruitment strategy tied in with our extremely under performing manager.

That alright?

The last thing I want is short termism - though I do think spaffing obscene money that we don't actually have into a huge, unsustainable squad is ******* stupid.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Proven right about what? Haven't been 'proven right' about anything.

My long term vision for the club is for it to be healthy, exist and make the town/surrounding areas and supporters proud.

I absolutely do not want this club to be viewed as a stepping stone and have a new random XI out every season/otherseason at all because that's how you end up with players in that don't really give a **** and have absolutely 0 connection with the fan base - it's already looking that way with some of the lacklustre performances that we've had this season.

I don't want to necessrily replace VK - I wouldn't mind replacing ALK though.

I want players that want to be here for a long time and wear the shirt with pride - I want owners that are bothered about long term strategy/investment into things that won't necessarily offer an immediate short/medium term ROI.

Rather than dumping obscene money into a ton of young players from here there and everywhere and seeing what **** hits the wall I'd rather we use that to invest heavily into a scouting network... A proper one - not just people sat at their computers looking at some BS metric as to why player X will be worth it.

If we are to stick with this current plan then I'd like to see more people that have been involved in succesful recruitment brought on board and not have the entire clubs recruitment strategy tied in with our extremely under performing manager.

That alright?

The last thing I want is short termism - though I do think spaffing obscene money that we don't actually have into a huge, unsustainable squad is ******* stupid.

I was right about the social media, better people than you on here acknowledge it

The club needs to be that stepping stone for players to prove themselves in the top flight/english football, other clubs do it and do it well whilst building up the club itself

Players are here for the money and opportunity, don’t fool yourself that it’s anything else initially
If they stay long term and gain an attachment to the club then that’s great but that isn’t why they’re signing for us
They’re employees/assets don’t forget and most players know they’ll be moved on within a few years if they do well

The owners are growing the club, it can be seen
The club is relatively healthy
The lacklustre performances aren’t because they don’t have a lack of connection to the fans


Dumping money into transfers to see what hits/sticks is generally how it works btw

Your vision is good in some aspects but you’re also basing it on your view as a fan and not as a businessman and that’s where it starts to fall apart

[CoolClaret]

I was right about the social media, better people than you on here acknowledge it

The club needs to be that stepping stone for players to prove themselves in the top flight/english football, other clubs do it and do it well whilst building up the club itself

Players are here for the money and opportunity, don’t fool yourself that it’s anything else initially
If they stay long term and gain an attachment to the club then that’s great but that isn’t why they’re signing for us
They’re employees/assets don’t forget and most players know they’ll be moved on within a few years if they do well

The owners are growing the club, it can be seen
The club is relatively healthy
The lacklustre performances aren’t because they don’t have a lack of connection to the fans


Dumping money into transfers to see what hits/sticks is generally how it works btw

Your vision is good in some aspects but you’re also basing it on your view as a fan and not as a businessman and that’s where it starts to fall apart

What are you on about 'better people than you on here acknowledge it'.

My point about all that is it's a small part of what it takes to grow a football club - unless you just want to be known as a club that makes daft signup videos then get panned every week?

No, you're wrong Sid.

Football comes first - every club that starts prioritising commercial aspects ends up failing.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

What are you on about 'better people than you on here acknowledge it'.

My point about all that is it's a small part of what it takes to grow a football club - unless you just want to be known as a club that makes daft signup videos then get panned every week?

No, you're wrong Sid.

Football comes first - every club that starts prioritising commercial aspects ends up failing.

Ok
We can leave it there because it’s not worth my time batting this about
You’ve made it very clear you can’t grasp how social media benefits the club and you’ve no interest in knowing

You have yourself a good day

[CoolClaret]

Ok
We can leave it there because it’s not worth my time batting this about
You’ve made it very clear you can’t grasp how social media benefits the club and you’ve no interest in knowing

You have yourself a good day

Of course I can see that - the point is that it isn't like some gold standard metric to judge the board as making some grand inroads into making BFC some sort of global player like you seem to make it out to be.

[Chester Perry]

I was proven right about social media and its benefits but we can go over it again if you’re struggling to understand the benefits of it

The long term plan isn’t to be in the Championship, it’s to grow the club, have a young squad playing good football and become a club where younger players would want to come so they could use us as a stepping stone etc
Then eventually they’ll sell the club to a richer owner

Here’s an idea, you tell me who you want to replace Kompany with
Then tell us how long you’d give that manager, the parameters you’d set in place and the length of time you’d give them to achieve the goals you’ve set in place

Give us your long term vision for the club and how you think it will get there

Then we can discuss that because all I see are people with short term thinking, no patience and a desire to change things when it gets even a little bit tough

It is also fair to say that after two years of significant growth in all platforms on social media, follower numbers have almost stayed flat since the summer instead of the previous steady growth

the other thing to remember is that while the growth of our number has been substantial and in multiples - overall in football terms it is still Championship quantity at best

The question remains - just how many have signed up for the reveals of new transfers, a field which others are starting to encroach on, we also cannot keep signing new players at the rate we have been doing in the last 3 windows - that in itself means less of such content - though theoretically should lead to a higher quality of that type of content

[spt_claret]

I was right about the social media, better people than you on here acknowledge it

The club needs to be that stepping stone for players to prove themselves in the top flight/english football, other clubs do it and do it well whilst building up the club itself

Players are here for the money and opportunity, don’t fool yourself that it’s anything else initially
If they stay long term and gain an attachment to the club then that’s great but that isn’t why they’re signing for us
They’re employees/assets don’t forget and most players know they’ll be moved on within a few years if they do well

The owners are growing the club, it can be seen
The club is relatively healthy
The lacklustre performances aren’t because they don’t have a lack of connection to the fans


Dumping money into transfers to see what hits/sticks is generally how it works btw

Your vision is good in some aspects but you’re also basing it on your view as a fan and not as a businessman and that’s where it starts to fall apart

I agree with trying to go viral on social media but 1st line is very abusive and arrogant. Too much of this going round lately.

I do agree we're likely to be a stepping stone club for a long time if not forever- Brighton, Brentford, clubs that have a similar model working, all are. I don't think being quite so open out about this, practically advertising that we'll take any mercenary who wants a shop window so long as we get a cut of the profit, is a great way to be sustainable about that or result in a cohesive team or culture.

We should prioritise players here for the opportunity over the money- they're similar things on the surface but different in practice. Playing for the opportunity means you bust a gut to get back in it if you go behind. You're out to play against the best and ideally becom the best. Playing for the money? They're not going to put that extra yard in, make that tackle, they're probably going to play more selfishly in general only thinking about what puts them in the shop window. Ronaldo gets called a selfish player, but Ronaldo was always fixated on being the best and demanded his teammates train as hard as him and raise their standards. He became a mega money earner, and money was a motivator given his poverty, but he was 100% prioritising being the best. That's the mentality needed, again, being too brazen about "we want to flip for profit" sends a weird message. Brentford & Brighton don't make it so openly about "we're doing this to make money" even though in Brighton's case it is. And Brighton are a bad comparison as they kept enough of a steel core of players with grit for the first few years, to stay in the PL for multiple years in a row while they more steadily built up the conveyor belt.

I honestly would argue whether we've grown the club. Under Dyche, we were known as a dreaded away day, we got tagged anti-football and meekly accepted it instead of using it as a marketing opportunity, but we were known as the physical, hard, nobody wants to go to Burnley away, over-achiever of the PL. Now? Casual viewers and other clubs' fans are laughing and rolling their eyes going "Cor they might have Vincent Kompany but they're terrible".

The club is only healthy if it remains in the Prem. If we go down we'll be selling a lot of this team, some probably have relegation clauses meaning we won't make much if any profit, some like Tresor will have lost value on what we paid so far, some like Koleosho gained value (but injured). That money can't go into keeping the club healthy if it has to be reinvested in the squad- which it would. So we'll be back in the situation of promotion or bust- which WAS the case last year as Pace let slip in Mission to Burnley, no matter much nonsense talk of being promoted 'too soon' there is.

The lacklustre performances certainly aren't helped by lack of connection to fans. Vitinho busts a gut and tries. Beyer beats himself up after mistakes. Jay is a Burnley lad, but past it and it's hard to watch sometimes. A lot of the new arrivals have built no identity or connection with the fans yet, always going to be hard when results are bad but when the fans see players' heads drop and see the same mistakes repeatedly without signs of learning it takes a few leaders on the pitch to step up and try engage and rally, and they're all a bit too young, inexperienced, and either meek or mercenarial to do that.

And heaven forbid fans think of the football club being primarily run in the fans' interests rather than overseas investors who ultimately won't care if the club collapses 5 seconds after they're out of the door, as long as they got their money's worth. I understand why ALK operate the way they do, it's not a lack of understanding. It's that I dislike it, AND think that it's a poor strategy that either doesn't understand the volatility of English vs American sport, or doesn't care because they're not planning on being here for the fallout.

[CoolClaret]

It is also fair to say that after two years of significant growth in all platforms on social media, follower numbers have almost stayed flat since the summer instead of the previous steady growth

the other thing to remember is that while the growth of our number has been substantial and in multiples - overall in football terms it is still Championship quantity at best

The question remains - just how many have signed up for the reveals of new transfers, a field which others are starting to encroach on, we also cannot keep signing new players at the rate we have been doing in the last 3 windows - that in itself means less of such content - though theoretically should lead to a higher quality of that type of content

This was basically my point -

A few gimmicky videos twice a year isn't building a long term fanbase, beyond naive to think that it is in all honesty.

On field product first, then the rest will follow.

[JohnMcGreal]

The club needs to be that stepping stone for players to prove themselves in the top flight/english football, other clubs do it and do it well whilst building up the club itself

But that's nothing new. The club has been a stepping stone for players for pretty much its entire history. Off the top of my head in the last decade or so Rodriguez, Trippier, Ings, Mee, McNeil, Pope, Tarkowski have all moved on to to better / bigger teams at the time.

The only difference I can see with this cycle is the amount of money forked out on the young players we eventually hope to sell. It's a much a higher risk strategy and if they don't perform well the club could be well out of pocket.

[aggi]

Ok
We can leave it there because it’s not worth my time batting this about
You’ve made it very clear you can’t grasp how social media benefits the club and you’ve no interest in knowing

You have yourself a good day

I've said before, the (relatively) easy part of social media is getting the engagement. The tricky part, that we have yet to demonstrate, is how to monetise that. It's not just a football issue but it is particularly exaggerated in football as a lot of larger revenue streams by which you can engage with the club are fairly fixed (matchday revenue and tv money).

You can argue that maybe it increases sponsor revenue but last season we had our away shirt sponsored by a non-existent company and this season we're back on the usual gambling companies.

Also, it's not like we're massively outperforming our peers. Instagram/twitter we've got about the same number of followers as Bournemouth or Sunderland, about half as many as Wolves, way fewer than Leicester and absolutely dwarfed by the big clubs.

[NewClaret]

Burnley FC owed its owners (not sure exactly how the complex ownership structure works, but basically it owed an Alan Pace company) nothing as at July 2022. That isn't the issue.

The issue is that Alan Pace's companies owe Burnley FC £115m as at July 2022 and we have no reason to believe they have repaid any. Have you any reason to believe that? Alan Pace's companies are not legally obliged to pay it back, and if they don't, the club is probably insolvent. The July 2023 accounts will tell us more, but the directors, based on past form, won't let that be made public until the very last legal moment - next April, or possibly July if they find an excuse to delay.

Remember that first and foremost, these investors are in it for money. Not for the good of the club.

I’m not worried about inter-company loans. Obviously I have no idea f any of the debts due to the club have been repaid, although the existence of £88m & £80m in the parent companies gives me some hope there’s a lot of cash floating around (of which might be the same cash, but a very healthy sum nevertheless). Even if the original £88m were the total sum, that’s still a lot more than the original debt we took and we know half of that was repaid.

I would be worried about any external debt we may hold, but we don’t know whether we have any so I’m not worrying about that either. I’d very much like and appreciate some more transparency from ALK on that front though, given our impending relegation.

I do accept that investors invest to make money, but surely you also accept the only real way to do that is to nurture and grow the club - or they lose it all. And I’m not really sure what alternative you’re proposing? Fan ownership? All football clubs are owned by investors, we’re no different basically.

I think Alan Pace seems a genuine guy and has made himself accessible to the fans and contributed to a lot of community work. I think we could do a whole lot worse.

[Quickenthetempo]

I’m not worried about inter-company loans. Obviously I have no idea f any of the debts due to the club have been repaid, although the existence of £88m & £80m in the parent companies gives me some hope there’s a lot of cash floating around (of which might be the same cash, but a very healthy sum nevertheless). Even if the original £88m were the total sum, that’s still a lot more than the original debt we took and we know half of that was repaid.

I would be worried about any external debt we may hold, but we don’t know whether we have any so I’m not worrying about that either. I’d very much like and appreciate some more transparency from ALK on that front though, given our impending relegation.

I do accept that investors invest to make money, but surely you also accept the only real way to do that is to nurture and grow the club - or they lose it all. And I’m not really sure what alternative you’re proposing? Fan ownership? All football clubs are owned by investors, we’re no different basically.

I think Alan Pace seems a genuine guy and has made himself accessible to the fans and contributed to a lot of community work. I think we could do a whole lot worse.

You will certainly lead a happier life if you ignore all the worrying things and just focus on the good things.

[claretonthecoast1882]

You will certainly lead a happier life if you ignore all the worrying things and just focus on the good things.

The other option is to whinge and moan about anything and everything, I bet they are fun people to be around

[CoolClaret]

The other option is to whinge and moan about anything and everything, I bet they are fun people to be around

With the final option being to throw snide comments about other posters in all the time and offer absolutely 0 original thought into any discussion.

[claretonthecoast1882]

MOD: Personal attack on another poster removed and warning issued.

[NewClaret]

And heaven forbid fans think of the football club being primarily run in the fans' interests rather than overseas investors who ultimately won't care if the club collapses 5 seconds after they're out of the door, as long as they got their money's worth. I understand why ALK operate the way they do, it's not a lack of understanding. It's that I dislike it, AND think that it's a poor strategy that either doesn't understand the volatility of English vs American sport, or doesn't care because they're not planning on being here for the fallout.

I can understand a lot of the views in your post, even if I don’t share them.

But I’m really curious to know, if not our current ownership model - what? What’s your solution? Local ownership? Fan ownership? What’s the panacea for you?

Baring in mind here that the last local owners cut and run as soon as soon as an opportunity arose, with a lot of the clubs money as I see it.

[spt_claret]

I can understand a lot of the views in your post, even if I don’t share them.

But I’m really curious to know, if not our current ownership model - what? What’s your solution? Local ownership? Fan ownership? What’s the panacea for you?

Baring in mind here that the last local owners cut and run as soon as soon as an opportunity arose, with a lot of the clubs money as I see it.

I would have been happy with the previous owners had they invested more into refreshing the squad, the way they scarpered was shameful.
I can understand a corporate entity coming in looking to turn a profit on us, but it's the way they do it that concerns me. I genuinely believe that the club's survival, longterm or indeed one moment after they've turned their profit and sold up, is entirely irrelevant to them. Coming in looking to make a profit but also respect the risks of English sport, the community, culture & history of the club, and not looking to just make a profit at all costs with no regard to after their tenure, would be fine. I don't trust this lot to so much as leave the electric on on their way out. The documentary was cultivated to give a Nice Guy image, his trips to the fanzone are the same. I wouldn't buy a used car from him. I've seen way too many clubs- Bury, Derby, Blackpool just to name a few- get absolutely rinsed. Or clubs like Watford which have had the soul ripped out of them. And I simply do not trust anyone who has been at that high level of places like Lehman Bros or Citigroup. It's not an environment which attracts or promotes good behaviour, responsible investment, or consideration for factors beyond profit.

Ideally, a part fan ownership model would be a solution, yes. I'm a big admirer of the German system. I know that we've seen a decade plus of dominance by Bayern due to reluctance by investors to invest for 49% in other clubs, I'm not sure what the solution is to that, but I do think it promotes more responsible, stewardly ownership.