Apparantly all.petrol and diesel to be scrapped within 10 years

Aye oreyt

Making sure my car is well serviced and constantly in tip top condition. It’ll be worth a fortune soon

Could be good for the country, massive amount of infrastructure required to make this work.

Millions of houses/flats with no driveways /garages so easy access to on street charging points will be required.

They're also going to need to educate the idiots that the charging points aren't toys to be played with, but they probably won't listen until someone gets killed playing with one

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 17, 2020 11:46 pm

they probably won't listen until someone gets killed playing with one

I think that's the precis of the entire history of the human race.

Wellsy1882 wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 17, 2020 11:10 pm

Apparantly all.petrol and diesel to be scrapped within 10 years

Aye oreyt

It's good news if the sale of new petrol/diesel engined cars is banned from 2030. However, all the existing cars will remain on the road until they are retired/scrapped. If the response is similar to the start of LD2 (everyone rushing out to socialise before the lockdown ) there will be massive buying of ICE cars in 2029, and maybe a few will be "stockpiling" vehicles, so that they've got some spares to keep them going for a couple of decades or so.

Of course, this will only change if electric vehicles are developed so that they are cheaper to both buy and run than ICE vehicles. If manufactures can't sell the latter from 2030 they will put a lot more effort into developing electric cars (and maybe hydrogen fuel cell vehicles) well before then.

I think the wording is cars wholly powered by petrol or diesel. Hybrids will still be allowed.

Wellsy1882 wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 17, 2020 11:10 pm

Apparantly all.petrol and diesel to be scrapped within 10 years

Aye oreyt

I thought that it was a target to end production to stop by 2030? Not all of them to be scrapped?

It is...

Paul Waine wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 17, 2020 11:55 pm

It's good news if the sale of new petrol/diesel engined cars is banned from 2030. However, all the existing cars will remain on the road until they are retired/scrapped. If the response is similar to the start of LD2 (everyone rushing out to socialise before the lockdown ) there will be massive buying of ICE cars in 2029, and maybe a few will be "stockpiling" vehicles, so that they've got some spares to keep them going for a couple of decades or so.

Of course, this will only change if electric vehicles are developed so that they are cheaper to both buy and run than ICE vehicles. If manufactures can't sell the latter from 2030 they will put a lot more effort into developing electric cars (and maybe hydrogen fuel cell vehicles) well before then.

You hit the nail on the head there. IF they will be cheaper.??? They won't be and its the average person who will feel the pain. As usua.

I’m in the process of getting my first EV, and the saving is huge vs my old car.

That said, I do about 14k miles per year meaning I’ll be saving not only on fuel but RFL and servicing too. There was no contest, really.

I do however see the government changing the structure of RFL (again) when they have a big hole in their tax revenues from motorists (again).

Stayingup wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 18, 2020 8:36 am

You hit the nail on the head there. IF they will be cheaper.??? They won't be and its the average person who will feel the pain. As usua.

Agree, car ownership will be more expensive until the cost of owning and running a e-vehicle is less than the cost of owning an ICE vehicle. But, add in the cost of climate change and the cost of damage to health from ICE vehicle pollution and we will all be pleased to pay the extra.

Our first home was a terraced house and you should have seen the arguments over parking, especially around six in the evening when most of us were parking up after work.

Most people tried to park outside their own house, but this wasn't always possible and you always get the resident 'strange person' who thinks he owns a parking slot on the public highway outside his home. Good luck when the time comes and there's only a handful of EV charge points on each terraced street. Either that or cables trailing from each house across the pavement to the car. No problem for those of us who have a driveway, but there must be millions of motorist in the UK who don't have one.

Darthlaw wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 18, 2020 8:43 am

I’m in the process of getting my first EV, and the saving is huge vs my old car.

That said, I do about 14k miles per year meaning I’ll be saving not only on fuel but RFL and servicing too. There was no contest, really.

I do however see the government changing the structure of RFL (again) when they have a big hole in their tax revenues from motorists (again).

The papers at the w/end we reporting on the £40bn gap in tax revenue when the chancellor is no longer collecting (approx) 60p on each litre of petrol and diesel in road fuel duty, plus an additional 20% VAT, plus the road vehicle license. The tax advantages of e-vehicles may start to disappear once ICE-vehicles are much less common.

Billy Balfour wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:16 am

Our first home was a terraced house and you should have seen the arguments over parking, especially around six in the evening when most of us were parking up after work.

Most people tried to park outside their own house, but this wasn't always possible and you always get the resident 'strange person' who thinks he owns a parking slot on the public highway outside his home. Good luck when the time comes and there's only a handful of EV charge points on each terraced street. Either that or cables trailing from each house across the pavement to the car. No problem for those of us who have a driveway, but there must be millions of motorist in the UK who don't have one.

I think charging pads are the way to go. Charging points can also be fit to bollards or lampposts so no need to be trailing cables across the pavement.

Obviously there are challenges and issues associated with electric vehicles but I think it’s pretty clear that is where we’re heading. I’m sure the issues can and will be overcome although this will require a huge amount of investment in our infrastructure.

Paul Waine wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:19 am

The tax advantages of e-vehicles may start to disappear once ICE-vehicles are much less common.

Most certainly. There will be compulsory GPS Tracking on every vehicle and we'll pay per mile.

Billy Balfour wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:25 am

Most certainly. There will be compulsory GPS Tracking on every vehicle and we'll pay per mile.

Maybe... but, that assumes that the gov't will still want to raise general revenue by taxing vehicle use. It's easy to collect the tax as a duty on the fuel. It's a lot harder to have a road pricing scheme that makes every road a toll road and to differentiate between, for example, a run up to the Lake District on the M6 and the alternative route through the Trough of Bowland. If the Trough was lower priced than the M6, we'd see traffic jams across the Trough and relative quiet on the M6 - people responding to price signals. It's OK if road pricing is intended to change traffic patterns, but it's self-defeating if it's all about raising general tax revenue. A better and simpler approach would be no tax on e-vehicle usage or road usage and increasing income tax rates and VAT.

That and currently employers can allow their staff to charge at work for free with no benefit in kind tax. Expect that to be pulled very quickly once employers start to effectively offer free fuel as a perk.

Apart from the arguments over ICE v EV pricing and costs, I really enjoy driving my Kia e-Niro and the smooth ride and instant boost when traffic conditions require it. I bought mine second hand from a dealer, as of course there are very few around, due to its popularity. To be fair I had a Podpoint put in at home for charging which cost me £80 after the government grant, so I can charge at home.

Hopefully Boris will respond to the need for multiple chargers to be installed all over the country as there are some 'wastelands' where you could think they still power their homes by candles and gaslight !!!!!!

Billy Balfour wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:25 am

Most certainly. There will be compulsory GPS Tracking on every vehicle and we'll pay per mile.

The issue with things like this it what ever hi tech devices and systems they fit to cars, there will be a more intelligent person who has a device/program that will evade or by pass some or all of it. They introduced digital odometers to vehicles to remove the manual process of clocking miles off a vehicle. All they did was enable tech savvy people with a lap top to plug in and electronically change the mileage.

The big issues with EVs ahead are the generation of sufficient electricity to charge millions of vehicles, the infrastructure to get these vehicles charged and at present the cost of an EV in comparison to a ICE vehicle. Battery tech and charging can and will change a lot in the decade before this takes effect, the model seen for the future is for fast and ultra fast chargers deployed at petrol stations, hence BP buying Chargemaster, a company I worked for in the past for £130m. Shell did similar with New Motion.

I'm not convinced regarding taxation. I think GPS Tracking will be the way to go and we'll pay per mail and it will be sooner rather than later. Govts for the last 20 years or so have been banging on about a 'fairer' system to the current VED where those who do the most miles pay more. It's just that the tech hasn't been there in the past.

Herts Clarets wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:53 am

The issue with things like this it what ever hi tech devices and systems they fit to cars, there will be a more intelligent person who has a device/program that will evade or by pass some or all of it.

There will always be tax fraud and tax evasion with any system. Just look at the current rates of VED 'avoidance'. The govt can help reduce this by introducing deterrent harsh deterrents. Heavy fines and a crushed vehicle would put most people off.

Sale of new petrol and diesel cars banned from 2030, and sale of hybrids from 2035.

I like the idea of an electric car, and I drove a Nissan Leaf as a courtesy car, and liked it.

But at the moment they are entirely impractical for me.

For example, a round trip to Turf Moor is about 225 miles, beyond or approaching the range of most electric cars. I've seen no charging points en route, and even if there were, I understand it can take up to an hour to recharge.

Between now and 2030, the battery range needs to increase to at least 400 miles, and charging times need to reduce to below ten minutes. Of course, a lot of money will need to be spent by the government to provide a comprehensive battery charging infrastructure.

No chance.

Charging will have to be immediate.

Someone’s already mentioned charging problems when vehicle owners don’t have a driveway.

Batteries capacity will need to increase by 3 or 4x.

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/1081 ... l-duty-gap

Already considering charging drivers by the mile.

On average people only drive 26miles a week.

People like me will do that and more just in a morning though

lakedistrictclaret wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 18, 2020 10:03 am

For example, a round trip to Turf Moor is about 225 miles, beyond or approaching the range of most electric cars. I've seen no charging points en route, and even if there were, I understand it can take up to an hour to recharge.

One thing that always interests me is the accuracy of the electric car ranges. For example, petrol cars' mpg figures are hopelessly overstated because they are tested at steady speed on a level road with no traffic in good weather.

If an electric car has 250 miles official range, then what is its range for driving home from Turf Moor on a wet winter night with headlights, wipers, and blowers all working full time?

dsr wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 18, 2020 10:16 am

One thing that always interests me is the accuracy of the electric car ranges. For example, petrol cars' mpg figures are hopelessly overstated because they are tested at steady speed on a level road with no traffic in good weather.

If an electric car has 250 miles official range, then what is its range for driving home from Turf Moor on a wet winter night with headlights, wipers, and blowers all working full time?

Flat by the time you get to Accy...

Over ambitious plan. Queues at charging stations. Insufficient numbers for the entire population. Long round trips / driving from here to abroad where there could be differentiated infrastructure. People who live in flats or have no drive. The car industry is left where ? People can’t plan too far ahead with purchases. There are some big issues here. On top of that this overall ‘green ‘ plan involves nuclear which isn’t green. Beginning to get very disillusioned with this government and some of their barnpot ideas.

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 18, 2020 10:13 am

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/1081 ... l-duty-gap

Already considering charging drivers by the mile.

On average people only drive 26miles a week.

People like me will do that and more just in a morning though

According to this site

https://www.racfoundation.org/motoring- ... 20top-,Q27)

Q27 says that 356.5 billion miles were driven on UK roads last year. That's 5,401 per person, man woman and child - and only about half of us drive. It's a lot more than 26 miles per week, 1300 miles per year.

This policy is based on future technology improvements. As the world is now, it's unworkable. Assuming technology advances by 2030 - specifically, the fuel supply, whatever it may be, can be recharged/refilled/reloaded as efficiently as petrol, more or less - then cost will be the big issue. It isn't (I hope!) intended for technology as it stands now.

Billy Balfour wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:54 am

I'm not convinced regarding taxation. I think GPS Tracking will be the way to go and we'll pay per mail and it will be sooner rather than later. Govts for the last 20 years or so have been banging on about a 'fairer' system to the current VED where those who do the most miles pay more. It's just that the tech hasn't been there in the past.

The government of course would very much like the idea of knowing exactly where everyone's car is at any given moment with permanent records to look back on as required. Especially if they can do it while claiming it's nothing to do with Big Brother Is Watching You.

Tend to agree with Boss Hogg in so much as I'm absolutely all in favour of a move to all electric and certainly to hybrids in the interim, but by 2030?? Seems a tad ambitious and unrealistic to me, especially with the cost of hybrids/electrics and the lack of infrastructure and will surely send the current manufactures into meltdown re medium term planning.

Boss Hogg wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 18, 2020 10:20 am

Over ambitious plan. Queues at charging stations. Tax fraud includes tax evasion

Govts and their plans, especially when those plans involved large infrastructure projects. We all know what will happen. In five years time it will be moved to 2035 and after that it will be kicked even further down the road. I remember govts back in the late 1990s talking about how we will have a world beating telecommunications infrastructure. 2020 and most of us are still waiting.

lakedistrictclaret wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 18, 2020 10:03 am

Of course, a lot of money will need to be spent by the government to provide a comprehensive battery charging infrastructure.

I don't see why the government/tax payers should be responsible for the infrastructure. Sources of petrol are not in government hands. Other major infrastructure such as broadband is not payed for by government. Surely the private sector and individual motorists can deal with this.

What the government can do is start the ball rolling with incentives like they did with solar panels.

https://www.greentomatocars.com/news/hy ... tric-cars/

I was listening to a council planning meeting recently and they were looking at proposals to build a block of 94 flats. The council seems to have a 'climate emergency' plan that includes deterring cars, so reducing car parking to about 40 spaces (no garages), having eight electric charging points and spaces for something called a 'club car' (which seems to be a communally owned shared car). They are also encouraging bicycle use by insisting on bicycle storage for each flat but there is no bicycle infrastructure - cycle ways etc. although they apparently have some vague plans for this.

Most of the objections to this plan were from local residents who live in the current real world and will have to deal with extra parking in their roads. Of course this real world needs to change.....

Boss Hogg wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 18, 2020 10:20 am

Over ambitious plan. Queues at charging stations. Insufficient numbers for the entire population. Long round trips / driving from here to abroad where there could be differentiated infrastructure. People who live in flats or have no drive. The car industry is left where ? People can’t plan too far ahead with purchases. There are some big issues here. On top of that this overall ‘green ‘ plan involves nuclear which isn’t green. Beginning to get very disillusioned with this government and some of their barnpot ideas.

What about all the other governments that are planning the same thing though?

I'd understand if it was just the UK pushing ahead with this, but it isn't.

Hipper wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 18, 2020 10:41 am

I was listening to a council planning meeting recently and they were looking at proposals to build a block of 94 flats. The council seems to have a 'climate emergency' plan that includes deterring cars, so reducing car parking to about 40 spaces (no garages), having eight electric charging points and spaces for something called a 'club car' (which seems to be a communally owned shared car). They are also encouraging bicycle use by insisting on bicycle storage for each flat but there is no bicycle infrastructure - cycle ways etc. although they apparently have some vague plans for this.

Most of the objections to this plan were from local residents who live in the current real world and will have to deal with extra parking in their roads. Of course this real world needs to change.....

It's not new for councils to forget about the "real world". The reason the old St Peter's multi-storey car park had such tiny parking spaces was because the council of the time, in its infinite wisdom, had decided that we were all going to drive minis in future to save fuel.

Hipper wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 18, 2020 10:41 am

I don't see why the government/tax payers should be responsible for the infrastructure. Sources of petrol are not in government hands. Other major infrastructure such as broadband is not payed for by government. Surely the private sector and individual motorists can deal with this.

What the government can do is start the ball rolling with incentives like they did with solar panels.

https://www.greentomatocars.com/news/hy ... tric-cars/

I was listening to a council planning meeting recently and they were looking at proposals to build a block of 94 flats. The council seems to have a 'climate emergency' plan that includes deterring cars, so reducing car parking to about 40 spaces (no garages), having eight electric charging points and spaces for something called a 'club car' (which seems to be a communally owned shared car). They are also encouraging bicycle use by insisting on bicycle storage for each flat but there is no bicycle infrastructure - cycle ways etc. although they apparently have some vague plans for this.

Most of the objections to this plan were from local residents who live in the current real world and will have to deal with extra parking in their roads. Of course this real world needs to change.....

Was it Government who pushed through the building of Motorways?
Or did the locals club together to pay for a section each?

Om 4th November the National Grid nearly collapsed
We don’t generate enough power as it is
How do millions of electric cars get charged?
https://www.thegwpf.com/colder-weather- ... -weakness/

UTC

Looks like the eco- woke lot have infested Number 10 now.

The Tories "Blue Wall" being dismantled one, anti working class proposal, brick at a time.

(Electric cars - Chinese domination of batteries, child labour used for mining. Hydrogen- UK one of the leaders in development . Go figure)

Billy Balfour wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:16 am

Our first home was a terraced house and you should have seen the arguments over parking, especially around six in the evening when most of us were parking up after work.

Most people tried to park outside their own house, but this wasn't always possible and you always get the resident 'strange person' who thinks he owns a parking slot on the public highway outside his home. Good luck when the time comes and there's only a handful of EV charge points on each terraced street. Either that or cables trailing from each house across the pavement to the car. No problem for those of us who have a driveway, but there must be millions of motorist in the UK who don't have one.

You are right. Many many car owners who live on terraced streets which weren't built to accommodate cars.

Like most things it is designed for the SE, and many Londoners for example dont own cars. They have very good public transport facilities. We don't. This what Johnson ought to be working on and that would reduce pollution from vehicles. For example Rossendale and Ramsbottom has no train connection into Manchester and consequently the M66 is a bit like a car park at certain times of the day. All these cars (not to mention freight) emitting pollution.

I'm sure most cars could have solar panel roofs built in to boost performance. Some clever person will get the ball rolling.

chorleyhere wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:50 am

To be fair I had a Podpoint put in at home for charging which cost me £80 after the government grant, so I can charge at home.

Hi Chorley, I assume you'd advise the Podpoint seen as you've got one. I've been looking at em and cheapest for a 7kw is £550. How did you get your so cheap?

There's more chance of us using jetpacks to commute by 2030 than there is of northwest's terraced streets being kitted out with adequate EV charge point/pads.

We simply don’t have the electricity infrastructure.

DNO’s are currently devising all sorts of smart “schemes” that provide the required load on demand. They essentially are departing from the traditional model of constantly available supply (that a customer pays for and is expected to be able to receive).

When this can no longer be engineered safely we then have to begin looking at infrastructure reinforcement. This starts with the cables laid in the street, through the primary and secondary substation transformers right back to the power stations.

This is not just restricted to the physical equipment but also the law and regulations that govern the supply of electricity (specifically repair times and restoring supply)

I currently sit on national industry body panel (for manufacturers of electrical equipment) and this topic is a hot one.

Edit: that is not to say I’m against the roll out. The government needs to have more insight into the application of this ban and what it means further down the chain.

Paul Waine wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:19 am

The papers at the w/end we reporting on the £40bn gap in tax revenue when the chancellor is no longer collecting (approx) 60p on each litre of petrol and diesel in road fuel duty, plus an additional 20% VAT, plus the road vehicle license. The tax advantages of e-vehicles may start to disappear once ICE-vehicles are much less common.

I suspect the tax will become the 'charge per mile of road use'.
The comms with electric vehicles will be such that everything is known about its movement and habits. My trips to Burnley, currently free, will suddenly become very expensive again, with pay per use.

Herts Clarets wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:53 am

The issue with things like this it what ever hi tech devices and systems they fit to cars, there will be a more intelligent person who has a device/program that will evade or by pass some or all of it. They introduced digital odometers to vehicles to remove the manual process of clocking miles off a vehicle. All they did was enable tech savvy people with a lap top to plug in and electronically change the mileage.

That means will be difficult. Tesla and associated apps, know everything about my car, constantly. A sudden change would flag up.

One negative, at present, is that where councils supported the roll out of EV chargers, using Government subsidy, the guarantees have expired and maintenance costs. Councils strapped for cash. One by one, they are out of use and not being repaired.

My local one, which was free, is now defunct. Two other set ups, in the centre, are bust. Grim!

IanMcL wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 18, 2020 12:35 pm

That means will be difficult. Tesla and associated apps, know everything about my car, constantly. A sudden change would flag up.

I suspect there would be a big difference between Tesla technology and something introduced by government.

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 18, 2020 10:57 am

What about all the other governments that are planning the same thing though?

I'd understand if it was just the UK pushing ahead with this, but it isn't.

‘All’ Its a bit infrastructure and it may be different in different countries. It could take away your ability to just get in a car and go where you want.

Boss Hogg wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 18, 2020 12:55 pm

‘All’ Its a bit infrastructure and it may be different in different countries. It could take away your ability to just get in a car and go where you want.

There isn't a hope in hell of any joined up thinking with infrastructure. When i worked in the EV charging industry, there was no common plug type for charging an EV - 2 different types. There were examples where different vehicles from the same manufacturer had different sockets, Renault and Nissan were 2 of the examples from memory. This meant that if you had a home charge unit fitted with a Type 2 plug and changed your vehicle, if your new vehicle didn't have the same socket, your charger is now obsolete.

Boss Hogg wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 18, 2020 12:55 pm

‘All’ Its a bit infrastructure and it may be different in different countries. It could take away your ability to just get in a car and go where you want.

Just get a trailer with a huge extension cord.