1) Explain why you had to be summoned to the video screen before giving a red card for grabbing somebody by the throat and throttling them (5 points)
2) Explain why you awarded a yellow card for the exact same offence only a few minutes later (10 points)

Points will be awarded for imaginative explanations and interpretations of the rules of the game as well as for actually getting the correct decision.

Must admit he is a poor ref and I always dread us having him. Is he the same guy we had against Lincoln?

At least the first decision ended up correct. How he only booked the fella for the hand in the face is beyond me. Had he gone over to the monitor he would have had no option but to send him packing.

Not a good performance from him.

Should have been a second red.

Certainly they should have had two sent off.
Ridiculous inconsistency.

Ball not in play for Elneny so he can’t get a red.

maccclaret wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 13, 2020 9:32 pm

Ball not in play for Elneny so he can’t get a red.

I’m no expert on the laws of the game but I’m pretty sure that’s not true.

The first one was a red card, no doubt about that.

The second is different. It’s not a grab of the throat. It isn’t a punch or hit in the face. It’s basically putting his hand out to stop Tarks run and he put it on his face rather than his chest.

maccclaret wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 13, 2020 9:32 pm

Ball not in play for Elneny so he can’t get a red.

That can be applied as to why he didn't give a penalty but he's very few excuses as to why he did not brandish a red card for the offence.

Certainly bottled the second red with Elneny

Dyched wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 13, 2020 9:34 pm

The first one was a red card, no doubt about that.

The second is different. It’s not a grab of the throat. It isn’t a punch or hit in the face. It’s basically putting his hand out to stop Tarks run and he put it on his face rather than his chest.

The replay which showed the side on angle showed that his arm up to stop him running into him is questionable at best.

Souness says it should have been a second red for Arsenal. I'm with him.

Players have been red carded after the final whistle if I remember rightly one the Sheffield players was at the play off final and I think Tinman was once so the ball not being in play has nothing to do with it.

It’s a red card. He shoves Tarks in the face.

Definitely a second red...incredible inconsistency.

That said. If he sends him off there’s no guarantee we would have scored from the set piece....

Ive seen us play poorly against 9 men on more than one occasion...

RalphCoatesComb wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 13, 2020 9:35 pm

Certainly bottled the second red with Elneny

In "fairness" to him, he bottled the first one too - it was only because the video ref summoned him to the video screen that he had to change his mind. He knew that as he'd been summoned there he had little option but to change the decision.

He ought to have been pulled up over the Elneny/Tarks foul too but the 4th official bottled it as much as the ref in that respect.

Additional question for the ref:

What exactly were you looking at when you originally decided to award a yellow card to Xhaka? Video footage shows you looking directly at the incident and yet you opted for a yellow card? (30 points available for most imaginative answer possible)

It’s the difference between a foul, which can only be when the ball is in play, and misconduct, which can be anytime.

On reflection, Rowls is right; no pen but red card.

For those questioning why not a penalty

bfcjg wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 13, 2020 9:28 pm

Should have been a second red.

And a penalty

My favourite incident was when he booked Robbie Brady for absolutely nothing.

BOYSIE31 wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 13, 2020 9:47 pm

And a penalty

No it shouldn’t

wilks_bfc wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 13, 2020 9:44 pm

For those questioning why not a penalty

Cheers for this. I wondered why it wasn’t a penalty although I didn’t care given what happened next.

Rileybobs wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 13, 2020 9:47 pm

My favourite incident was when he booked Robbie Brady for absolutely nothing.

Set the bar impossibly low for bookings with that, didn't he!

Just imagine if there were no 4th official to call him over and ask him politely to reconsider - we'd be comparing the booking of Brady (for nothing) with one of their players getting the same punishment for grabbing an opponent around the throat.

The VAR has worked well in this instance.

maccclaret wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 13, 2020 9:32 pm

Ball not in play for Elneny so he can’t get a red.

The question is ... is it violent conduct?
If deemed yes then the ball can be dead at that point and the red card be shown.

VAR has its faults but it continues to expose the ineptitude of the officials.

For years they hid behind the “we only get one view, we were unsighted etc etc”.

And as posted it can not be a penalty as the ball is not in play

He ballsed up another decision earlier in season with var can’t remember what it was for tho, just glad we’re on the right side of the decisions this time.

wilks_bfc wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 13, 2020 9:44 pm

For those questioning why not a penalty

Had the whistle been blown for the corner to be taken though ?
If so I would say the ball is in play

Bordeauxclaret wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 13, 2020 9:58 pm

VAR has its faults but it continues to expose the ineptitude of the officials.

For years they hid behind the “we only get one view, we were unsighted etc etc”.

Exactly why I support VAR. no way we were getting that red today without VAR, despite the ref being stood 1 yard away and looking directly at the incident.

dpinsussex wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 13, 2020 9:56 pm

The question is ... is it violent conduct?
If deemed yes then the ball can be dead at that point and the red card be shown.

You are the official? Was it violent conduct?

The number of times you see referees base decisions on those they have made previously is incredible, and yet they get away with it week after week after week.

The only reason he didn't give Elneny a red card is because he had already sent Xhaka off. There can be no other fathomable reason. Like when referees don't book players already on a yellow, because they would then have to send them off. It's pathetic and is something I had hoped VAR would correct but that today is evidence it doesn't.

If shoving an opponent in the face is not a red card, then I'd like to see the law that Scott has used to interpret that as simply a caution. It was not a coming together that's for sure - he put his hands in Tarky's face and shoved him! I would also like to know why it took umpteen watches of the incident involving Xhaka (that Scott clearly saw) to decide that was a red.

Ref bottled it , Pawson got it right at Chelsea when we beat them sending both off, that was a good bit of reffing, why the VAR didn’t say anything is amazing, never played the game at any level by the looks of it

maccclaret wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 13, 2020 9:32 pm

Ball not in play for Elneny so he can’t get a red.

So how come he got a yellow?

Rowls wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 13, 2020 9:50 pm

Set the bar impossibly low for bookings with that, didn't he!

Just imagine if there were no 4th official to call him over and ask him politely to reconsider - we'd be comparing the booking of Brady (for nothing) with one of their players getting the same punishment for grabbing an opponent around the throat.

The VAR has worked well in this instance.

I’m pretty sure the yellow was for the foul on Dwight not anything that happened afterwards. So despite it happening right in front of him he essentially thought it wasn’t worthy of punishment.

Same old Arsenal, always cheating. Not going over to the screen for the second one was a joke. Fifa told the premier league they HAVE to show the onfield ref the incident on the monitor in that exact situation. If it was the other way round without a doubt he would have gone over to look again. Shows how corrupt it all is. Disgusting really. VAR does not work if you have stupid and corrupt officals using it. It is scandalous.

Claret wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 13, 2020 11:33 pm

So how come he got a yellow?

Wrong. You can even get a red after the game. Has naff all to do with the ball being in play or not. It wasn’t a penalty for that reason, but it was a red all day long without a doubt. Scott and whoever was on VAR probably have been reading the same rule book as you have. It was truly shocking from them.

martin_p wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 13, 2020 11:48 pm

I’m pretty sure the yellow was for the foul on Dwight not anything that happened afterwards. So despite it happening right in front of him he essentially thought it wasn’t worthy of punishment.

That wouldn't make any sense given the sequence of events and what happened.

When he, belatedly, gives out the red card he indicates that the yellow card has been overturned which suggests the original decision has been overturned. Had he awarded a yellow for the foul he would have had to simply add a straight red on top of that but he crosses his hands to indicate that he is changing his decision.

He can clearly see the incident:



What else is he looking at???

You're being overly kind to him in your interpretation of events. He was desperate to fudge the decision and desperate for any excuse to not have to send off the gooner.

He'd have got away with it if it wasn't for VAR.

Stacky_claret wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 13, 2020 11:07 pm

Had the whistle been blown for the corner to be taken though ?
If so I would say the ball is in play

You'd be wrong, I'm afraid. The ball is not in play until it's kicked. Otherwise the opposition could charge down free kicks and corners before they were kicked.

maccclaret wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 13, 2020 9:32 pm

Ball not in play for Elneny so he can’t get a red.

Ball wasn't in play for the first red either.

maccclaret wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 13, 2020 9:32 pm

Ball not in play for Elneny so he can’t get a red.

So if you wait until the ball is out of play, you can chin an opponent and nothing happens

You can be sent off at any time - you can can even be sent off before the game has kicked off if you chin somebody walking out the tunnel.

You can only be awarded a penalty when the ball is in play, and the ball is only in play once it has been kicked, not when the whistle is blown

The referee is in charge of managing conduct of playets and associated staff from arriving at the ground until he leaves. You can be red carded at any time in this period for basically red card offences.
The ball was clearly not in play for the 2nd incident, so no penalty. However it was definitely a sending off offence.

No blame on Scott for the Elneny incident. That falls on Coote in VAR. He advised Scott to go to the monitor for Xhakas offence but chose to tell him the second was only worth a yellow. I’m sure if Scott had gone to the monitor that would have seen red. Remember it was Scott who upgraded the first offence from yellow to red. The Elneny shove in the face, with force, was far worse.

Haha Coote in VAR again! He didn’t think Pickford did anything wrong when he took out VVD. Shouldn’t be anywhere near VAR duty, British refs are some of the worst in the world , no wonder Clattenberg did one

Rowls wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 13, 2020 9:21 pm

1) Explain why you had to be summoned to the video screen before giving a red card for grabbing somebody by the throat and throttling them (5 points)
2) Explain why you awarded a yellow card for the exact same offence only a few minutes later (10 points)

Points will be awarded for imaginative explanations and interpretations of the rules of the game as well as for actually getting the correct decision.

he saw the attempted murder/throttling as well...right in front of him.
The GBH on Tarks was a clear red as well

should have booked him for the foul on tarks then for the simulation afterwards. what argument would the arse have for that.

Local cricketer wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 13, 2020 11:22 pm

You are the official? Was it violent conduct?

This is the subjectivity of the match official at the time.

Whether I agree or not I believe he thought it was a coming together, jockeying for position trying to fend off his opponent rather than an act of deliberate violent conduct. Hence the decision that was made .

There is the alternative view point is where the belief is violent conduct.

Personally I think Elneny was a very lucky boy

Rowls wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 14, 2020 12:15 am

That wouldn't make any sense given the sequence of events and what happened.

When he, belatedly, gives out the red card he indicates that the yellow card has been overturned which suggests the original decision has been overturned. Had he awarded a yellow for the foul he would have had to simply add a straight red on top of that but he crosses his hands to indicate that he is changing his decision.

He can clearly see the incident:



What else is he looking at???

You're being overly kind to him in your interpretation of events. He was desperate to fudge the decision and desperate for any excuse to not have to send off the gooner.

He'd have got away with it if it wasn't for VAR.

I was going to post pretty much the same.
I cannot believe that he rescinded the yellow, thus meaning he was upgrading to red for the throttling offence.
The foul on Dwight was clearly a yellow, and I think everyone assumed that that was why the yellow card was given, and that the throttle was a second (and red card) offence.
Yellow + red should have been the outcome.

nil_desperandum wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 14, 2020 9:55 am

I was going to post pretty much the same.
I cannot believe that he rescinded the yellow, thus meaning he was upgrading to red for the throttling offence.
The foul on Dwight was clearly a yellow, and I think everyone assumed that that was why the yellow card was given, and that the throttle was a second (and red card) offence.
Yellow + red should have been the outcome.

Just popped on this thread to say the same. Was the booking just for his reaction rather than the foul itself? If so then it's even more inept. As you say, Xhaka should have a yellow card and a red card to his name.

Has Dermot been on Sky Sports yet for his ref review?

Be interesting to hear what he has to say about it