Definitely time for a formation change. 442 has brought us this far but it's not helping. Especially when the front two are playing terribly.

Most PL teams are playing some version of 4231. The holding midfielders protect the defence and the 3 is fluid enough to drop when needed and then overload on the counter. The system is always likely to overload a midfield two. Hence why we struggle.

442 does us zero favours especially once we have conceded. When we are defending our midfield is deep. We then launch it long and when it invariably doesn't stick with the forwards, our midfield has been cut out by the long pass and so the opposition can bring it forward at leisure.

It doesn't have to be 4231 but it needs a rethink. Consistently picking the same team and formation week in week out means other teams can set up to counteract the two up top whilst looking to exploit. There is zero element of surprise.

We might have a small squad but that's no excuse to be so wedded to one way of playing.

For me it seems counterproductive to play 2 out of form strikers when we could play 1. I'd be tempted to take a look at something like this;

_______________Pope_______________

Lowton___Tarks_____Mee______Taylor

________Westwood____Cork_________

JBG___________McNeill_________Brady

_______________Wood_____________


We could maybe try Jay up top, or keep Brownhill in the middle and drop JBG in place of McNeill in the same system.

Rileybobs wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 16, 2021 7:04 pm

For me it seems counterproductive to play 2 out of form strikers when we could play 1. I'd be tempted to take a look at something like this;

_______________Pope_______________

Lowton___Tarks_____Mee______Taylor

________Westwood____Cork_________

JBG___________McNeill_________Brady

_______________Wood_____________


We could maybe try Jay up top, or keep Brownhill in the middle and drop JBG in place of McNeill in the same system.

That formation - Brownhill in the centre where McNeil is and McNeil on the left and JBG/Brady on the right

Something like that would make sense to me too and I agree it's pointless playing two out of form strikers. Just play one. Brownhill in the hole would add industry and a high press - he has a good shot on him too.

It’s not the system. We paid for one mistake but the problem currently is the front 2 who are a long way from last seasons level and that wasn’t great. Our season took off when Ash Barnes got injured a nd JRod played up front with Chris Wood. At least one of your front 2 has to be able to hold the ball up to allow teammates time to get up to them. Neither of Barnes or Wood can.

At times today there was a gap of 20-30 yards between Wood/Barnes and the nearest midfielder.
With the front two's current inability to control anything, playing like that for 60 minutes plus was criminal.

clarethomer wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 16, 2021 7:07 pm

That formation - Brownhill in the centre where McNeil is and McNeil on the left and JBG/Brady on the right

But with Rodriguez instead of Wood.

huw.Y.WattfromWare wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 16, 2021 7:08 pm

It’s not the system. We paid for one mistake but the problem currently is the front 2 who are a long way from last seasons level and that wasn’t great. Our season took off when Ash Barnes got injured a nd JRod played up front with Chris Wood. At least one of your front 2 has to be able to hold the ball up to allow teammates time to get up to them. Neither of Barnes or Wood can.

the system isn't helping, the players are out of form. How long do you keep doing the same thing that isn't working ?

_______________Pope_______________

Lowton___Tarks_____Mee______Taylor

________Westwood____Cork_________

Brady________Brownhill_________McNeil

_____________Jay Rod _____________

That would be my suggestion for trying a new formation. Given how badly we performed today, even though Dyche said we played well (???), I would be tempted with a really defensive setup against Liverpool as we aren't gonna score in the next 10 games playing like we did today with Wood and Barnes up top. Maybe this for Liverpool, with Barnes up top on his own just causing problems and getting free kicks:

_______________Pope_______________

Lowton___Tarks__Long___Mee____Taylor

Brownhill__Benson___Westwood____Cork

_______________Barnes_____________

clarethomer wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 16, 2021 7:07 pm

That formation - Brownhill in the centre where McNeil is and McNeil on the left and JBG/Brady on the right

I do not understand the hype surrounding Brownhill. He’s a good grafter but shows very little quality on the ball.

One trick pony ?

Newcastleclaret93 wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 16, 2021 7:26 pm

I do not understand the hype surrounding Brownhill. He’s a good grafter but shows very little quality on the ball.

I'm not hyping anyone up but he is capable of joining up the play that's all for that formation.

clarethomer wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 16, 2021 7:35 pm

I'm not hyping anyone up but he is capable of joining up the play that's all for that formation.

Ok I might have worded it wrong?

What makes you think that? I have been posting the same thing for the past few weeks, he literally has the worst offensive stats of all of our midfielders. His strengths are interceptions and tackling, if anything play him in front of the back four and push someone more suited to attacking further up the pitch

442 is fine the middle 4 have to graft as hard as the back 4 and support the attack far quicker than today

We must be the only side having two banks of four defending whilst we're attacking.

Newcastleclaret93 wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 16, 2021 7:37 pm

Ok I might have worded it wrong?

What makes you think that? I have been posting the same thing for the past few weeks, he literally has the worst offensive stats of all of our midfielders. His strengths are interceptions and tackling, if anything play him in front of the back four and push someone more suited to attacking further up the pitch

Just from what I have observed when I have watched him. If I went of stats, I wouldn't be picking any of our strikers currently

442 against Liverpool is just asking for trouble, but unfortunately it's nailed on with dyche, against the big boys any manager with a bit of sense would try to stop them playing and pack the midfield

out of our current central midfielders the only one that seems capable of carrying the ball forward is none of them

McNeil in a free role will get us 20 yards further up the pitch and win us an awful lot more free kicks

Allerdyche wont change from the tried and trusted.

Been like this forever, it keeps us in games and then it's all about falling the right side of the margins, getting that stroke of luck etc.

Altjough hardly pretty and free flowing its effective and acceptable when we are winning, when it's not it's as dull as dish water.
Not sure formation changes that.

We have too many slow, play safe players with very little open play creativity.

I don't think it is neccessarily the 442. The problem is Dyche likes his midfielders to sit deep. Neither are given the licence to get beyond the forwards. That is the wide mens duty but if they are also filling in as full backs it places a big work load on the wider players. That is fine when we have players like Boyd and Arfield. From open play this severely limits our ability to get forward with any purpose especially on the counter. It makes us solid but we sacrifice attacking output.
The change to 4231 would allow Dyche to keep us solid whilst allowing the attacking players and players such as Brownhill (who was used much more as an attacking midfielder at Bristol City) to utilise their talents. The only worry is that would he still expect the wider players to act as full backs whilst defending?

I think we're missing Taylor and hopefully he'll be back soon
but do agree that a formation change might also help.
Especially against Liverpool and possibly also against Villa and Chelsea.

We've nothing to lose trying a formation change and we can always revert back to 442 if need be.

_____________Pope_______________

Lowton___Tarks_____Mee______Taylor

________Westwood____Cork_________

Brady________Brownhill_________McNeil

_____________Jay Rod/Wood _____________

Pope
Lowton, Tarks, Mee, Taylor
Cork, Westwood
Gudmundsson, Brady, McNeil
Wood

Gets the best of out of our squad and would hopefully provide would with a bit more service.

But would happily swap Jay for a more liquid attack

There's more chance of us all being back on the Turf next month than there is of Dyche switching to a flexible 4-2-3-1 formation.

jrgbfc wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 16, 2021 10:31 pm

There's more chance of us all being back on the Turf next month than there is of Dyche switching to a flexible 4-2-3-1 formation.

If that’s true it’s a sad state of affairs. Stan’s blind man on his galloping horse can see the current setup isn’t working. A change in mentality or formation is needed.

I’ve been saying for ages the current group of players do not suit 4-4-2.

Dyche and change shouldn`t really be used in the same sentence

jurek wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 16, 2021 10:22 pm

I think we're missing Taylor and hopefully he'll be back soon
but do agree that a formation change might also help.
Especially against Liverpool and possibly also against Villa and Chelsea.

We've nothing to lose trying a formation change and we can always revert back to 442 if need be.

_____________Pope_______________

Lowton___Tarks_____Mee______Taylor

________Westwood____Cork_________

Brady________Brownhill_________McNeil

_____________Jay Rod/Wood _____________

I agree with jurek if we do try 4-2-3-1 then this is the one to try. I’d start with Rodriguez as centre forward.

Someone with a right foot that can cross a ball on the right would be a start.
(a given that Westwood stays central

claretgimmer wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 16, 2021 11:02 pm

Dyche and change shouldn`t really be used in the same sentence

It's harsh but true and it's been that way since he arrived here.

You can't argue that it hasn't brought us success though.

However when it's been good, it's good but still pretty shite on the eye. When it's bad, it's shite on the eye but with the added bit of wanting to dig your eyeballs out with a red hot dessert spoon.

The most baffling thing above all is that he's still starting Barnes. As a big fan of his (both actually, but I mean Barnes) I have to say he isn't and hasn't brought enough to the party. F***ing baffled.

S'not the formation , that's put us in good stead for the past few years. It's the personal.

Sorry , but like the board, they've took us as far as their best endeavors can take us.

Nothing stays the same forever.

New blood required , sad to say.

I’d try Cork and Brownhill

Westwood’s performances recently have been woeful and even his usually high standard of corners have been off

Don't see what people see in Brady or jbg, both ineffective going forward

A suggestion for 4-4-1-1

Usual defensive 4

Brownhill Westwood Cork Brady
____________McNeil
_______Rodriguez or Wood

McNeil given free roaming role behind the centre forward which releases him from some defensive duties

Brownhill to play narrow right half back rather than winger

We do need to mix it more, especially chasing games, but 442 has served us well. Its the individual performances that are letting us down, not the formation.
We need players to stand up and be counted.

Arnold Bashley wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 17, 2021 12:39 am

I’d try Cork and Brownhill

Westwood’s performances recently have been woeful and even his usually high standard of corners have been off

Westwood is trying to be 3 players in one, defensive cover, box-to-box & play maker, all because the rest of the midfield are not offering any of the rest and he's trying to do all 3. Against Leeds when we changed to a 3 in midfield you saw the real threat of Westwood being a play maker and defensive cover when needed. Westwood, Cork/Stephens & McNeil further forward in a midfield 3 would suit the players in that area more than the current formation.

Really surprised at how many people are leaving Brownhill out

I really like Rileybobs' team otherwise though. Although (as bad as he was on Saturday, and he was still our most dangerous striker IMO) I think Vydra would flourish with JBG, McNeil and Brady behind him, I think all of our strikers would benefit in that formation

HunterST_BFC wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 16, 2021 11:31 pm

Someone with a right foot that can cross a ball on the right would be a start.
(a given that Westwood stays central

JBG has more PL assists than any other Burnley player in history. Playing almost entirely on the right wing

The issue for me isn't so much our formation but how other teams set up. Some will negate 442 more effectively than others and 4231 is one that does that - especially when you view it against a Burnley 442 with the personnel that we have.

442 requires two exceptional CMs and I agree that we are missing Cork in that area. It also needs two strikers who can hold the ball up and wingers that supply the attacking support. Based on current form and players that isn't happening.

4231 would actually suit our players quite well. It's not always about what's worked well in the past; it's about who we have at our disposal and importantly how other teams are setting up.