A new programme on BBC 2.

Been debated on here before, but he was a great athlete.

Really?
We’ll never know. He won his world title on a horrendous wet day when he was theonly rider that came out to play. Then he was a one day rider. We now know he won all his TdFs whilst joosed up. I’ll remember him for that not being a great rider.

He may have been a great athlete, but we'll never know.

Sorry Huw !!!

Good programme that details his early life, follows just about everything I have read in the past.

Detailing all the drugs he took and when, that more detail than I have read before.

Think it’s probably more detailed than before, I just wonder if it will tell the effects of EPO had on the riders that died.

Funkydrummer wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 24, 2021 11:51 pm

He may have been a great athlete, but we'll never know.

Sorry Huw !!!

Well he was, if you read what he did as a I young bloke completing triathlons at 15 and beating pro adults .
Teammates who were at the top of their profession and doing the same drugs on the same team could not keep up with him.

It is not the full story.

Better made accounts out there to watch.

You dont hear much on Bradley Wiggins these days...

HunterST_BFC wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 25, 2021 12:23 am

It is not the full story.

Better made accounts out there to watch.

Which ones??

Think I have read most of them. But always ready to read more.

Lowbankclaret wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 24, 2021 10:30 pm

A new programme on BBC 2.

Been debated on here before, but he was a great athlete.

Barry Sheene would have beaten him easily. It's a fair comparison, they both used artificial aids to make themselves go faster.

Armstrong raced during an era when ALL of the top level and indeed most of the lower/junior level pro-cyclists were doped-up to the eyeballs, I've always suspected that Armstrong's crimes were deemed more heinous because he wasn't European and preferably French, Italian or Spanish. I also find it ironic that the enquiry-panel which stripped Armstrong of his TDF titles included Bjarne 'Mr 60%' Riis.

He was a cheat. That’s all you need to know

Was in awe of him, especially after reading “it’s not about the bike”...turns out he was right. It wasn’t about the bike... it was about the drugs.

Now, he’s just a drugs cheat. Doesn’t matter how good he was as a youngster, the element of doubt is there for that period too.

And to suggest it wasn’t just the drugs because everyone was at it and they couldn’t keep up with him so therefore he’s a great athlete is seriously laughable.

tim_noone wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 25, 2021 12:28 am

You dont hear much on Bradley Wiggins these days...

You do if you look. Considering he’s going through a messy divorce with a new misses in tow. He’s wisely keeping his head down. Caths also battling her own demons and then there’s kids to think of.

Think I saw him about to announce something with Gym Shark mind?

bobinho wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 25, 2021 5:24 pm

Was in awe of him, especially after reading “it’s not about the bike”...turns out he was right. It wasn’t about the bike... it was about the drugs.

Now, he’s just a drugs cheat. Doesn’t matter how good he was as a youngster, the element of doubt is there for that period too.

And to suggest it wasn’t just the drugs because everyone was at it and they couldn’t keep up with him so therefore he’s a great athlete is seriously laughable.

I think this needs serious discussion. He was the best, at everything, including cheating.

He is a force to be reckoned with and if you do your research, he is to be admired.

Read about how many pros quit, because they couldn’t compete, hours behind at the end of a GC, and they didn’t want to compromise their bodies.

Read about how the USA team, striving to get a foothold in a European sport had no other option.

Read about how they’d have to go back to the 17th finisher to award the Yellow as the rest were doping.

He was the best at what he did, period!

Admired? Not personally.

I think Ben Johnson was a better athlete.

Danieljwaterhouse wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 25, 2021 5:47 pm

I think this needs serious discussion. He was the best, at everything, including cheating.

He is a force to be reckoned with and if you do your research, he is to be admired.

Read about how many pros quit, because they couldn’t compete, hours behind at the end of a GC, and they didn’t want to compromise their bodies.

He is to be admired for this? Decent honourable athletes with integrity dumped their careers because they couldn’t make a living trying to cleanly keep up with a drugs cheat. He most certainly is not to be admired. We don’t need to look at anything else he may have done, it was done by cheating.

bobinho wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 25, 2021 5:55 pm

He is to be admired for this? Decent honourable athletes with integrity dumped their careers because they couldn’t make a living trying to cleanly keep up with a drugs cheat. He most certainly is not to be admired. We don’t need to look at anything else he may have done, it was done by cheating.

The whole of cycling was CHEATING. Does that mean we should lambast every single athlete/team?

Should we therefore lambast my grandfathers generation for their active participation in racism? Or should we accept that’s the way things were then and be happy that they’re not that way anymore?

Danieljwaterhouse wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 25, 2021 5:43 pm

You do if you look. Considering he’s going through a messy divorce with a new misses in tow. He’s wisely keeping his head down. Caths also battling her own demons and then there’s kids to think of.

Think I saw him about to announce something with Gym Shark mind?

Aaah theres a surprise........Not.

tim_noone wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 25, 2021 6:31 pm

Aaah theres a surprise........Not.

I don’t think we’re even close to be qualified to comment.

Danieljwaterhouse wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 25, 2021 5:58 pm

The whole of cycling was CHEATING. Does that mean we should lambast every single athlete/team?

Should we therefore lambast my grandfathers generation for their active participation in racism? Or should we accept that’s the way things were then and be happy that they’re not that way anymore?

YES, we should be lambasting the cheats no matter what sport or game they play.

We shouldn’t be happy with certain things from our past - we should be ashamed by some of them - but encouraging the cancel culture is wrong.

Let’s keep it relevant tho. We are talking about an athlete who took drugs to benefit himself. Other athletes who SHOULD have been winners, whose names SHOULD have been engraved on the trophies missed out on being remembered forever. All due to one mans greed. Yes there were loads of them at it, and if it hadn’t been him, it would’ve been another, but that still don’t make it ok.

He cheated. I think we should remember him as such. Just like we should remember any athlete who uses performance enhancing drugs to win.

But when everyone is doing it, what’s the alternative?

Smoking, drinking, drugs, racism, whatever is your tonic, it’s all wrong we all do it because of the pressures around us.

You need to read a lot more about cycling, the culture, the European snobbery, the European racism towards the US and British athletes.

Understand the bigger picture, you’ll understand why it was inevitable.

He was the best of his generation, on or off drugs.

The "everyone else is doing it" line just doesn't wash with me I'm afraid. Never a good excuse if you have a moral compass of your own. Plus, the guy didn't just decide to cheat himself, he was a domineering bully who was central to one of the biggest doping systems that the sport has seen. The way he treated other cyclists who were trying to come clean or didn't want to buy into his way of doing things was horrendous. Used all his might and wealth to threaten and bully them into keeping quiet. The guy is a psychopath. He wasn't just blindly following others. Even now, he has shown no real remorse for what he did. He's only sorry he got caught.

Danieljwaterhouse wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 25, 2021 5:58 pm

The whole of cycling was CHEATING. Does that mean we should lambast every single athlete/team?

Should we therefore lambast my grandfathers generation for their active participation in racism? Or should we accept that’s the way things were then and be happy that they’re not that way anymore?

And there is part of the issue, cycling is still not clean. They have just developed newer better ones. I think it was 3 years ago the peloton set the fastest ever TdF. The riders even set some of the fastest climb time too. EPO set a very high bar for what could be achieved, a bar that has been bettered.

bobinho wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 25, 2021 6:44 pm

YES, we should be lambasting the cheats no matter what sport or game they play.

We shouldn’t be happy with certain things from our past - we should be ashamed by some of them - but encouraging the cancel culture is wrong.

Let’s keep it relevant tho. We are talking about an athlete who took drugs to benefit himself. Other athletes who SHOULD have been winners, whose names SHOULD have been engraved on the trophies missed out on being remembered forever. All due to one mans greed. Yes there were loads of them at it, and if it hadn’t been him, it would’ve been another, but that still don’t make it ok.

He cheated. I think we should remember him as such. Just like we should remember any athlete who uses performance enhancing drugs to win.

I think the point you are missing is 99% of the peloton were taking drugs. Several pushed the boundary of EPO to try to keep up. It turned their blood to treacle and they simply died as their poor hearts could no longer pump it round their bodies.

I don’t admire Lance, I just think rubbing him out from history is wrong. No other drugs cheat has been treated that way.

Lowbankclaret wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 25, 2021 7:51 pm

And there is part of the issue, cycling is still not clean. They have just developed newer better ones. I think it was 3 years ago the peloton set the fastest ever TdF. The riders even set some of the fastest climb time too. EPO set a very high bar for what could be achieved, a bar that has been bettered.

Im not naive enough to believe cyclings totally clean but I’m not sure they’ve set faster times recently? For example Geraint Thomas won the Alpe d,huez climb 3 years ago and he wasn’t even in the top 100 fastest ascents- he was 4 and a half minutes behind Pantanis best effort.

Ben Johnson.

And I don’t want to rub Lance Armstrong out... I just think he should be remembered for what he was, not for what he could’ve been had he and the sport been clean.

Lowbankclaret wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 25, 2021 7:51 pm

And there is part of the issue, cycling is still not clean. They have just developed newer better ones. I think it was 3 years ago the peloton set the fastest ever TdF. The riders even set some of the fastest climb time too. EPO set a very high bar for what could be achieved, a bar that has been bettered.

In what data do you suggest that the peloton isn’t clean? Cheats are getting consistently caught, technology, training, money, and the Team Sky affect have all impacted performance.

We have seen every sport move forward, push boundaries, create new records. Is everyone doping/cheating?

welsbyswife wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 25, 2021 7:03 pm

The "everyone else is doing it" line just doesn't wash with me I'm afraid. Never a good excuse if you have a moral compass of your own. Plus, the guy didn't just decide to cheat himself, he was a domineering bully who was central to one of the biggest doping systems that the sport has seen. The way he treated other cyclists who were trying to come clean or didn't want to buy into his way of doing things was horrendous. Used all his might and wealth to threaten and bully them into keeping quiet. The guy is a psychopath. He wasn't just blindly following others. Even now, he has shown no real remorse for what he did. He's only sorry he got caught.

I don’t disagree with your summation of the aftermath.

Moral compasses go out of the window. A wavering compass is a condition of human morality and arguably what’s given longevity as a species.

There’s precedent in psychology to explain this behaviour, it’s observable and therefore understandable.

Given the circumstances, I’d suggest the vast majority of people would’ve chosen the path many did.

Armstrong was a GOAT, without the drugs.

Lowbankclaret wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 25, 2021 7:58 pm

I think the point you are missing is 99% of the peloton were taking drugs. Several pushed the boundary of EPO to try to keep up. It turned their blood to treacle and they simply died as their poor hearts could no longer pump it round their bodies.

I don’t admire Lance, I just think rubbing him out from history is wrong. No other drugs cheat has been treated that way.

These athletes were having to get up every two hours to exercise and take blood thinners just so they didn’t die in their sleep. The whole peloton was toxic and it was driven by the French and their elitist behaviours towards the Italians.

bobinho wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 25, 2021 8:24 pm

Ben Johnson.

And I don’t want to rub Lance Armstrong out... I just think he should be remembered for what he was, not for what he could’ve been had he and the sport been clean.

That’s the whole point, if the sport was clean he would likely have won, we cannot argue he would have done seven titles but he would have won.

Danieljwaterhouse wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 25, 2021 9:45 pm

These athletes were having to get up every two hours to exercise and take blood thinners just so they didn’t die in their sleep. The whole peloton was toxic and it was driven by the French and their elitist behaviours towards the Italians.

Yep read all about that, they were doing everything trying to win.

welsbyswife wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 25, 2021 7:03 pm

The "everyone else is doing it" line just doesn't wash with me I'm afraid. Never a good excuse if you have a moral compass of your own. Plus, the guy didn't just decide to cheat himself, he was a domineering bully who was central to one of the biggest doping systems that the sport has seen. The way he treated other cyclists who were trying to come clean or didn't want to buy into his way of doing things was horrendous. Used all his might and wealth to threaten and bully them into keeping quiet. The guy is a psychopath. He wasn't just blindly following others. Even now, he has shown no real remorse for what he did. He's only sorry he got caught.

I just want you to watch the programme.

Lance was toasted even at the top of his game . Even other pots on the programme tell you, you not even going to be able to compete clean. Just about no one was clean, those claiming stuff at the time were not in on the top drugs to they would have been doing the same.
And yes he did bully, I read the book written by the journalist who he bullied the most.
If 2% or 10% of the peloton were doing drugs you have a point, but it was 99%

box_of_frogs wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 25, 2021 5:49 pm

Admired? Not personally.

I think Ben Johnson was a better athlete.

Chobulous wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 25, 2021 5:18 pm

He was a cheat. That’s all you need to know

Yes, file him in the same box as Bradley Wiggins.