Brownhill RM - never again

He can't do it.

HunterST_BFC wrote: ↑

Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:20 pm

Brownhill RM - never again

He can't do it.

I'll be honest, I don't really see it with Brownhill. Not at all convinced he's up to this level.

Completely agree that he shouldn't be played on the right

He could handle CM...
either holding or top of 4 with three behind maybe.

but no way RM

He just drifts infield all the time. Created lots of space for Lowton but we need two out there playing off each other.

Almost like we have needed another winger for 12 months

claretcarrot93 wrote: ↑

Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:56 pm

Almost like we have needed another winger for 12 months

Louder for the people in the back.

(Although, when JBG is healthy...he’s class.)

by 12 months do you mean 36 ?

He's a good player at CM. Give the lad a break

THEWELLERNUT70 wrote: ↑

Mon Mar 01, 2021 12:41 am

He's a good player at CM. Give the lad a break

Kind of my point (see above).

But RM - he just about fills a shirt.......

Given the options today Bardsley was possibly a better pick to start....... not ideal

Very much like Hendrick. It's just not going to work in our system. Very different when he played well there in the Bristol City team 17/18. He's clearly a box to box CM. Does the work so those around him can benefit. He'd work best in a CM of 3.

He needs to improve his passing massively if he's going to be a success with us. He looks as limited as Jeff Hendrick to me.

I think next in line for the right wing slot is Erik Pieters.

He is just not premier league quality. His passing his really poor for a CM. Will graft all game for the team but unfortunately he is just not the required level.

It isn't his position, the same as it isn't Pieters, but he's asked to do a job by Dyche because he doesn't think we have any one else.
It's wrong to knock him for something out of his control.
In days of yore, you'd just go to the reserves and pick a rt winger. I'd like to think we could do the same with the U23s. I presume they play with one, give him a chance, just as we gave Dwight.
It might not work out, but putting square pegs in round holes doesn't work out either.

Newcastleclaret93 wrote: ↑

Mon Mar 01, 2021 9:03 am

He is just not premier league quality. His passing his really poor for a CM. Will graft all game for the team but unfortunately he is just not the required level.

Never has been to be fair, he was a very good Championship player & the step up is beyond his capabilities, he was a bit of a gamble in quality expectations for this league so it’s no great surprise he’s falling short.

Jakubclaret wrote: ↑

Mon Mar 01, 2021 9:08 am

Never has been to be fair, he was a very good Championship player & the step up is beyond his capabilities, he was a bit of a gamble in quality expectations for this league so it’s no great surprise he’s falling short.

Yes I 100% agree. That is the problem with our main source of recruitment coming from the championship.

Newcastleclaret93 wrote: ↑

Mon Mar 01, 2021 9:20 am

Yes I 100% agree. That is the problem with our main source of recruitment coming from the championship.

We can all talk about it until the cows come home but we never pay top dollar for anybody really so it’s no great surprise some of players struggle at this level, it’s not really there fault, we need to splash the cash more & take more financial gambles in my view & see where it takes us, throw caution to the wind you never know it might just pay off.

This is all nonsense we have in Brownhill a really safe pair of legs. At the moment our club is creaking under the weight of injuries . Burnley are always better with a settled team.

I like the discussion of "his passing is not up to it."

In a Man City team and many PL teams when they get the ball a minimum of 2 players show for the ball, hungry to take it from the man on the ball. This makes passing so much easier. How many times does Taylor not pass to McNeil because he realises he will turn onto his left foot and therefore pass it back to Mee. Our passing success rate as a team is probably woeful as we hit the channels in hope. Defour when fit would take the ball off Mee or Tarks and demand 2 or 3 options to pass the ball to. Currently our team play more balls in behind which are currently in hope rather than actual passes to team mates. I am not sure Brownhill is that bad as some would make out.

Too many square pegs in round holes and compromise for us. Brownhill is a good addition to the squad-. A PL central midfielder ?? No not when you look at all other 19 PL teams, When you play 2 in midfield against sides who pack midfield then they both need to be at the top of their game each week. Yesterday our two were totally over shadowed and it showed

Brownhill -
10th in the league for aerial duels (defensive and central midfielders)
Ball recoveries and Interceptions - best in the Burnley squad and 9th in the PL
Creation of chances - ranked as average
Only midfielders that have more touches in the opposition box and Brady and JBG
Stats eh!

He's no right winger though

He also touches the ball far less than when he was at Bristol City - obviously we're not keen on possession

vinrogue wrote: ↑

Mon Mar 01, 2021 9:45 am

I like the discussion of "his passing is not up to it."

In a Man City team and many PL teams when they get the ball a minimum of 2 players show for the ball, hungry to take it from the man on the ball. This makes passing so much easier. How many times does Taylor not pass to McNeil because he realises he will turn onto his left foot and therefore pass it back to Mee. Our passing success rate as a team is probably woeful as we hit the channels in hope. Defour when fit would take the ball off Mee or Tarks and demand 2 or 3 options to pass the ball to. Currently our team play more balls in behind which are currently in hope rather than actual passes to team mates. I am not sure Brownhill is that bad as some would make out.

Spot on, the best passing sides don't play difficult passes, they move fast out of possession which makes the passes simple. It's not a difficult thing to do, simple pass and move with fluidity and tempo, you don't need superstar players either to do it. Every manager has a style of play, Dyche's isn't pass and move, it's 442 defensive long ball based on hardwork.

Should be first choice in the centre of midfield. Westwood not up to it and age is catching up with Cork

Josh Brownhill does a better job at cm he can tackle and his interceptions are up there stats wise with the best in Premier league according to Sky
Jack Cork is off the pace this year and is not offering much going forward.
Westy has his free kicks and class deliveries but cant tackle
We need a cm who can pass tackle and provide killer chances for our strikers
Sean's plan were everyone comes back to cover doesn't work with our predestrian players
We dont move as a team often resorting to sideways passing nonsense allowing teams to regroup into their defensive shape as we stutter and prevaracate taking far too long on the ball.
We need pacy passes to feet and Dwight Dwight nailing to the touchline with instructions to take on his marker at every opportunity and whip in crosses not stop and play backwards or drift aimlessly into midfield.

I remain to be convinced by Brownhill, be that in his natural central midfield position or out on the right, where yesterday, I thought I he had a very poor game.

Where I think we have to give him some leeway is that he’s possibly been thrown in much quicker than might have been the case, had we not had the injuries. It’s been a most unusual season to fairly judge someone relatively new to the squad and for them to get used to how we play.

Cork is getting older but out of all of our midfielders (including left and right sides) he’s the one for me with the best footballing brain.

As a pair, Westwood and Cork understand one another. Against poorer teams, they perform better as a unit than many teams with central midfielders, who on paper, look far better individually than our two.

Let’s be honest (and I laughed it Keane’s comments yesterday when he said our central midfielders were better than Spurs’) both Westwood and Cork can be improved upon, in terms of Premier League quality.

It was needs must yesterday, unless we went with a full back on the right of midfield. What I’d like to see from Brownhill now is that he starts to challenge for a central role ahead of Cork or Westwood (I see bits of both in Brownhill). That needs to happen quite quickly though, if he’s to make it at this level.

Midfield is an area that we really need to improve in, whether Brownhill is one of the options for that, I’m not too sure.

I’d love to see our style of play with some better quality players thrown into the mix, I think it could become even more effective and give us a little more ‘pleasing on the eye’ football.

Quickenthetempo wrote: ↑

Mon Mar 01, 2021 8:56 am

He needs to improve his passing massively if he's going to be a success with us. He looks as limited as Jeff Hendrick to me.

He looks way below Hendrick's level to me both in the centre and on the right. I still believe the loss of Hendrick is a major difference from last season.

Hendrick was terrible in the centre, but he is much better than Brownhill on the wing.

I think Hendrick has been a miss but only because our squad has been so threadbare. Had we gone and bought the right midfielder we’ve needed for years, I don’t think Hendrick would have been missed at all.

I see him competing with Westwood for the right side of central midfield. In summer we need to recruit an intelligent/creative ‘younger version’ of Jack Cork for the left side of central midfield.

I’m a bit surprised that the u23 players seem to be so far behind the ‘level’ of the first team in terms of stepping up as required. Surely they should be genuinely getting reasonably close to first team competitiveness otherwise what’s the point?

Mala591 wrote: ↑

Mon Mar 01, 2021 11:36 am

I see him competing with Westwood for the right side of central midfield. In summer we need to recruit an intelligent/creative ‘younger version’ of Jack Cork for the left side of central midfield.

I’m a bit surprised that the u23 players seem to be so far behind the ‘level’ of the first team in terms of stepping up as required. Surely they should be genuinely getting reasonably close to first team competitiveness otherwise what’s the point?

I think it’ll take a while before we start to see real quality coming through, on a hopefully more regular basis. We’ve only just got to the top category status.

It’s a big jump to the PL. In the meantime, if we can sell some of our youth players to lower league teams, it starts to become worth it.

ClaretTony wrote: ↑

Mon Mar 01, 2021 11:19 am

He looks way below Hendrick's level to me both in the centre and on the right. I still believe the loss of Hendrick is a major difference from last season.

I wasn’t a fan of Hendrick but I agree, the drop off from Hendrick to Brownhill is considerable.

I could see Brownhill being loaned out this summer to free up space for Knight.

No suprise we are struggling at RM when a lot of the fans have been clamouring for us to sign one over the past 18months. Although Jeff was "doing a job" there he wasn't the answer.

As said above I know there is a gap between the first team and the reserves/youths but surely we have a young right winger who can step in rather than playing centre midfielders out of position.

As I'm not too sure on the youths and reserves someone will be able to answer the question- what right midfielders do we have at youth/reserve level? Someone suggested Thompson had been playing on the right but his natural position is as a forward.
Is there a gap at youth level in this department along with the first team?

You need to get more out of a player at this or any level than a few blocks, he doesn't offer enough, is all round game is not good enough.

Brownhill was poor yesterday it was like playing with 10 men, he let the Spurs No 3 run wild and was to blame for at least 2 of the goals

ClaretTony wrote: ↑

Mon Mar 01, 2021 11:19 am

He looks way below Hendrick's level to me both in the centre and on the right. I still believe the loss of Hendrick is a major difference from last season.

There have been few teams worse than Burnley this season quality wise, but I would say Newcastle are one of those sides. Hendrick has largely been appalling for them and now he can't get into the team. I somehow knew this thread would come back to Hendrick v Brownhill, the blunt truth of the matter is we need better quality than the pair of them put together.

Our problem is we have 3 workmanlike, pedestrian midfielders who will "put a shift in". They graft, make tackles, win headers, block shots and passes. The issues start when they have the ball at their feet. None seem able to "pick a pass", other than the regulation sideways across the pitch. As soon as any pressure is applied, they turn back and play to either Mee or Tarks who knock a speculative ball into the channels. We lose it and are back under pressure again. Rinse and repeat. Spurs were pretty decent yesterday but we made it very easy for them. Go back a week, we were clueless against the 10 men of WBA for over an hour and realistically should have lost the game if WBA could shoot straight. The only player that gets us moving up the pitch is McNeil, but he is only effective going down the left touchline. As soon as he comes inside he is so one footed that after a run across the pitch, the ball goes backwards as he is seemingly incapable of using his right foot to pass the ball forwards.

As we have known for several windows now, major surgery is required on the midfield.

What we must also consider is that SD does not currently want an out and out attacking winger, he wants a right midfield player who can defend, as we so often need that extra defender. The winger side of things is the secondary job, Junior Stanislav fell foul to this as he argued with SD about his defending roll and so eventually didn't fit the jig saw that would have a 4 3 3.

KefkaClaret wrote: ↑

Mon Mar 01, 2021 11:24 am

Hendrick was terrible in the centre, but he is much better than Brownhill on the wing.

Huh? I'm amazed at the different opinions on here. If you mean his number 10 role he played in for us, maybe. But as a natural central midfielder, no in my opinion. I think Brownhill, like Hendrick is being shoehorned into a different position where he struggles to perform. Attributes that typically help players excel in that position are missing, most notably in attack. The way we play you need a good crosser on the wing and someone who's able to beat a man, either by cutting inside or getting a cross in. Neither offers that compared to Gudmundsson.

Both Hendrick and Brownhill offer a cover to the right back but it's just not good enough in games where you get pinned back by the opposition because you can't create anything in attack.

It's a funny old game with the extremity of opinions. There are those like Tony who believe he was a great player for us and those that think he was crap. I tend to agree with the latter but certainly an extra body wouldn't have gone a miss in desperate times. I also think he would have been better for us if he'd played more in his natural position. It was unfair on him to be moved about so much and I'm sure that was in his mind when he moved on.

I think it's clear from his move to Newcastle and the apparent lack of pulling up any trees there that he's pretty poor. I think he's even had better games for them when he's been in the middle rather than right. If they go down he'll be a lot more impressive at that level.

Brownhill on the other hand looks a great prospect to me. We very rarely get players who top premier league stat tables unless they are goalkeepers or defenders. He has the athletic ability to be a great box to box midfielder. But unfortunately for him he's in a squad with 3 others competing for his spot so he's the first one who has to give way and play out wide.

Don't forget he also had a recent injury too, which takes some time to get back in form.

superdimitri wrote: ↑

Mon Mar 01, 2021 4:30 pm

Huh? I'm amazed at the different opinions on here. If you mean his number 10 role he played in for us, maybe. But as a natural central midfielder, no in my opinion. I think Brownhill, like Hendrick is being shoehorned into a different position where he struggles to perform. Attributes that typically help players excel in that position are missing, most notably in attack. The way we play you need a good crosser on the wing and someone who's able to beat a man, either by cutting inside or getting a cross in. Neither offers that compared to Gudmundsson.

Both Hendrick and Brownhill offer a cover to the right back but it's just not good enough in games where you get pinned back by the opposition because you can't create anything in attack.

It's a funny old game with the extremity of opinions. There are those like Tony who believe he was a great player for us and those that think he was crap. I tend to agree with the latter but certainly an extra body wouldn't have gone a miss in desperate times. I also think he would have been better for us if he'd played more in his natural position. It was unfair on him to be moved about so much and I'm sure that was in his mind when he moved on.

I think it's clear from his move to Newcastle and the apparent lack of pulling up any trees there that he's pretty poor. I think he's even had better games for them when he's been in the middle rather than right. If they go down he'll be a lot more impressive at that level.

Brownhill on the other hand looks a great prospect to me. We very rarely get players who top premier league stat tables unless they are goalkeepers or defenders. He has the athletic ability to be a great box to box midfielder. But unfortunately for him he's in a squad with 3 others competing for his spot so he's the first one who has to give way and play out wide.

Don't forget he also had a recent injury too, which takes some time to get back in form.

Out of interest Dmitiri what makes you think he is a prospect? Isn’t he 25-26?

I just don’t see any part of his game which suggests he will make it at this level. In my opinion he is a grafter with very little quality.

In terms of Hendrick he hasn’t turned up any trees at Newcastle but still has 2 goals and 1 assist from midfield from 17 games. Think we have missed his occasional goal contributions.

superdimitri wrote: ↑

Mon Mar 01, 2021 5:36 am

Very much like Hendrick. It's just not going to work in our system. Very different when he played well there in the Bristol City team 17/18. He's clearly a box to box CM. Does the work so those around him can benefit. He'd work best in a CM of 3.

I agree, I’ve mentioned this before he’s be ideal in a 3 . Scope for the future if we can get the recruitment right , albeit that’s a big if

Jakubclaret wrote: ↑

Mon Mar 01, 2021 9:08 am

Never has been to be fair, he was a very good Championship player & the step up is beyond his capabilities, he was a bit of a gamble in quality expectations for this league so it’s no great surprise he’s falling short.

Falling short in his first season full season at this level? Probably doing more running than necessary given all the injuries and not fully fit players. I’d love to see us go with 3 in the middle next season if we stay up, one being Brownhill for sure .

SalisburyClaret wrote: ↑

Mon Mar 01, 2021 9:59 am

Brownhill -
10th in the league for aerial duels (defensive and central midfielders)
Ball recoveries and Interceptions - best in the Burnley squad and 9th in the PL
Creation of chances - ranked as average
Only midfielders that have more touches in the opposition box and Brady and JBG
Stats eh!

He's no right winger though

He also touches the ball far less than when he was at Bristol City - obviously we're not keen on possession

Interesting stats those SC so give the lad a chance I say and when/if we do get a settled side see where he's at then.

Super Teds wrote: ↑

Mon Mar 01, 2021 5:27 pm

914EDE74-EBB6-43CF-97DB-0634958ED396.png

The difference is all of the players on that list have contributed towards a goal. Brownhill is great an intercepting but little else

Hedontplayforyou wrote: ↑

Mon Mar 01, 2021 5:11 pm

Falling short in his first season full season at this level? Probably doing more running than necessary given all the injuries and not fully fit players. I’d love to see us go with 3 in the middle next season if we stay up, one being Brownhill for sure .

On the basis of what we are currently seeing, I’m not making allowances for mollycoddling, it’s a ruthless game at times it should be shape up or ship out & that applies for anybody underperforming.

Brownhill is of more use than Stephens will ever be and will be a big asset to us in the coming seasons and Stephens has played at this level much more than Brownhill, just an example, but there’s many others at different clubs where players need a bit more time than others

'The difference is that all of the players on that list have contributed towards a goal. Brownhill is at intercepting but little else."


It makes a massive difference when you are part of a team that actually manages to score some goals and convert the chances on offer. In case you hadn't noticed Burnley have only managed to score 18 goals all season - second worst in the PL to bottom club Sheffield United.

Bednarek plays for Southampton that have at least scored 31, Declan Rice for West Ham that have scored 40 and Matty Cash for Aston Villa that have scored 38. The last 2 named teams scoring double the number of goals as us.

In some games we can't even muster a shot on target.

Newcastleclaret93 wrote: ↑

Mon Mar 01, 2021 4:41 pm

Out of interest Dmitiri what makes you think he is a prospect? Isn’t he 25-26?

I just don’t see any part of his game which suggests he will make it at this level. In my opinion he is a grafter with very little quality.

In terms of Hendrick he hasn’t turned up any trees at Newcastle but still has 2 goals and 1 assist from midfield from 17 games. Think we have missed his occasional goal contributions.

We get it, you don't like Brownhill, this agenda you keep pushing is ******* weird though. The truth is Brownhill is new to this level, he showed glimpses of what he's capable of in central midfield and he's not a right midfielder. I've never understood why people non stop slag off the same player, it reminds me of HibsClaret strangely slating Charlie Taylor non stop, who's one of our better players.

Newcastleclaret93 wrote: ↑

Mon Mar 01, 2021 4:41 pm

Out of interest Dmitiri what makes you think he is a prospect? Isn’t he 25-26?

I just don’t see any part of his game which suggests he will make it at this level. In my opinion he is a grafter with very little quality.

In terms of Hendrick he hasn’t turned up any trees at Newcastle but still has 2 goals and 1 assist from midfield from 17 games. Think we have missed his occasional goal contributions.

Well opinions are opinions. I don't want it to seem like I'm taking the high horse, and that everything I believe is gospel...its just my opinion.
As for improving at 25 (turned 25 in December). I think outfield players tend to peak a little later, around 27 or so. That may even be later nowadays. There's still some time yet and he's already showing promising signs. I think we see that a lot with Dyche's players, even ones that join later in life than Brownhill.

I know Hendrick chipped in with the odd goal, sometimes even a worldie at that, but its his other attributes compared to Brownhill I thought were poor. He was slower, less athletic, couldn't tackle and I personally thought he read the game poorly. (some will like to tell you that Hendrick read the game well because they subscribe to the Athletic/watch YouTube and read an article about second balls ). You don't get so many interceptions unless you're able to read the game well, and that's something Brownhill does well off the ball. On the ball Brownhill needs improvement, his passing isn't fantastic, he doesn't have good vision, but he does the basics right and with the right players around him, will do even better. He also has a good strike on him, and I believe if we stick with him he will start to score more often (especially if we can actually be on the front foot more often).

So in a nutshell I think the stats don't lie. Hendrick never had great stats, never excelled in any area (and still doesn't). He had stamina, but wasn't as athletic. His biggest weakness wasn't getting stuck in and he had an uncanny ability to fade from games. But as I said, perhaps not a fair comparison on Hendrick since he had to also adapt to playing different positions. When we signed Brownhill and I saw he'd played on the right in the past I was scared that he would become another Hendrick and pushed out of position, I hope we get a couple of right wingers in so that doesn't happen in the future, because I think his true potential will show after a good run-in in central midfield.

KRBFC wrote: ↑

Mon Mar 01, 2021 7:20 pm

We get it, you don't like Brownhill, this agenda you keep pushing is ******* weird though. The truth is Brownhill is new to this level, he showed glimpses of what he's capable of in central midfield and he's not a right midfielder. I've never understood why people non stop slag off the same player, it reminds me of HibsClaret strangely slating Charlie Taylor non stop, who's one of our better players.

To be fair KRBFC it’s a page about Brownhill, I thought we were supposed to share our thoughts on players.

I’m not being over the top just sharing my thoughts on him and having a discussion about one of our players.

I’ve got no problem with Hibs slating Taylor either, if that’s his opinion fair enough. Football is a game of opinions.

I've just watched the 1st half. So far Brownhill is not our worst player, but he is the only one playing out of position.
From what I've seen, the normally excellent Tarkowski is having a stinker.