We’ve played well against Southampton and Newcastle. Played decent football in both, pushing forward, and creating plenty of chances. Lost both.

Not sure I’m liking this new style to be honest. Most worrying for me is how easy it is for the opposition to have possession on the edge of their own box, pass through us and score in seconds.

At 2-0 against Southampton we just needed to sit in, keep our shape and take the game to HT but we kept playing and got punished. They equalise today and we fly forwards like it’s the 89th minute & get caught again from possession deep in their half.

If we play like that against United we’re going to get an absolute hiding.

Barnes in for Vydra once he's fit. The footballs dogsh*t but it brings home the bacon

Devils_Advocate wrote: ↑

Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:18 pm

Barnes in for Vydra once he's fit. The footballs dogsh*t but it brings home the bacon

As I was typing that I was thinking Barnes.

And Cork.

It certainly shows Tarky and Ben Mee are know where near England level.

NewClaret wrote: ↑

Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:13 pm

We’ve played well against Southampton and Newcastle. Played decent football in both, pushing forward, and creating plenty of chances. Lost both.

Not sure I’m liking this new style to be honest. Most worrying for me is how easy it is for the opposition to have possession on the edge of their own box, pass through us and score in seconds.

At 2-0 against Southampton we just needed to sit in, keep our shape and take the game to HT but we kept playing and got punished. They equalise today and we fly forwards like it’s the 89th minute & get caught again from possession deep in their half.

If we play like that against United we’re going to get an absolute hiding.

I wouldn’t particularly say we have been too expansive. All of our problems are sourced in centre midfield. We can’t distribute the ball quick enough to catch teams out of position. We are reliant on getting the ball wide and hoping someone can produce an inch perfect cross. We will consistently struggle to score goals if we don’t improve this area.
This is also a problem is defence, because we are not distributing the ball quick enough the whole team is having to move ten - fifteen yards further up the pitch to try get more bodies forward. This then leaves the defence isolated on the break. Our defenders are not naturally good at defending one on ones, they are reliant on getting numbers behind the ball.

CM has got to be the number one priority this summer. Westwood and Cork are on the decline.
Stephens and Brownhill not simply good enough. There are players of the right quality out there.

NewClaret wrote: ↑

Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:25 pm

As I was typing that I was thinking Barnes.

And Cork.

If Cork couldn't get on the pitch with that second half display today why the hell have we given him an extended deal

The form of Vydra should hopefully see off Barnes

The problem is midfield (all of them apart from McNeil)

As soon as St Maximin and Wilson came on we should have brought Cork on for Wood and sat him in front of Tarks and Mee. Made me laugh when comms said St Maximin found space in FRONT of our back 4. No he didn’t he found a hole, in his own half, and Tarks and Mee were 20yds deeper petrified of his pace. One of them should have got body contact with him and the other cover behind.
I’m liking the new style but it’s a learning process. We do miss Cork’s nous when we have a lead.

Easy to say that but if we'd have took Wood off for Cork when we were one up and looking good and then Newcastle would have equalised you'd have all been hammering Dyche for being negative and letting Newcastle back in the game

huw.Y.WattfromWare wrote: ↑

Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:36 pm

As soon as St Maximin and Wilson came on we should have brought Cork on for Wood and sat him in front of Tarks and Mee. Made me laugh when comms said St Maximin found space in FRONT of our back 4. No he didn’t he found a hole, in his own half, and Tarks and Mee were 20yds deeper petrified of his pace. One of them should have got body contact with him and the other cover behind.
I’m liking the new style but it’s a learning process. We do miss Cork’s nous when we have a lead.

Agree on some points - the gaping hole was the fault of Westwood and Brownhill who were nowhere to be seen

Mee was covering behind Tarks but he also had eyes on another of their guys who was wide right

They were the last line of defense so could not commit so far up the pitch

Cork for Brownhill - yes. Cork for Wood - did anyone call for this at the time?.

taio wrote: ↑

Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:44 pm

Cork for Brownhill - yes. Cork for Wood - did anyone call for this at the time?.

Of course they didn’t, because taking off our top scorer 10 minutes into the second half with the game finely poised at 1-0 would be totally stupid. Even with hindsight it’s a stupid suggestion.

Rileybobs wrote: ↑

Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:51 pm

Of course they didn’t, because taking off our top scorer 10 minutes into the second half with the game finely poised at 1-0 would be totally stupid. Even with hindsight it’s a stupid suggestion.

Newcastleclaret93 wrote: ↑

Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:27 pm

I wouldn’t particularly say we have been too expansive. All of our problems are sourced in centre midfield. We can’t distribute the ball quick enough to catch teams out of position. We are reliant on getting the ball wide and hoping someone can produce an inch perfect cross. We will consistently struggle to score goals if we don’t improve this area.
This is also a problem is defence, because we are not distributing the ball quick enough the whole team is having to move ten - fifteen yards further up the pitch to try get more bodies forward. This then leaves the defence isolated on the break. Our defenders are not naturally good at defending one on ones, they are reliant on getting numbers behind the ball.

CM has got to be the number one priority this summer. Westwood and Cork are on the decline.
Stephens and Brownhill not simply good enough. There are players of the right quality out there.

On the midfield, I’m not sure we have the pace up front or wide to to take advantage of the opposition being out of position? We tend to need players being played in to goal scoring positions and they don’t get in them enough.

I think our main issue with the midfield is the lack of quality balls in to the box (crosses) and poor dead balls. Why did we put every corner on their keeper today??

Easy to say with hindsight but we need Cork back in.

I don’t think our midfield is as poor as you say but I agree it’s played poorly last two games.

You give yourself the best chance of winning a game by playing your best 11.

Jack Cork is in that 11. We don't lose at Southampton, or at home to Newcastle today with Cork playing.

Can only assume he isn't quite fit and was just making numbers up on the bench, just like Taylor.

I was thinking a change of formation but forget it, it won't happen

Owners probably let dyche know how many fans didn't renew ST's because of that dross we were playing before. It's a step in the right direction playing better football but does dyche know how to set a team up to play that way?

Josh Brownhill has the second most interceptions in the Premier league according to Sky stats.
Our problem with both goals conceded was a lack of challenge and marking.
Our midfield players didnt mark Murphy
Dwight and Erik doubled up on St Maximum but nobody tracked Murphy.
The second goal was a disgrace as St.Maximum should had been upended near the half way line, not left to run as defenders backed way giving him space to run into and score with no challenges on him.
Expansive football or one touch pass and move works.Rembember Everton and Palace away wins?Playing aimless sideways and backwards loosing games see yesterday after the second goal.Using subs also helps.

We certainly look more open. In both games we've looked more than decent going forward and could easily have scored more, but somehow we look way too open when we haven't got the ball and our usual backs to the wall, all hands on deck, spoiling the game, grinding out a result, frustrating all and sundry, including the neutrals watching on SKY has suddenly evaporated. We desperately need some rubbish games where we actually win 1-0 and everybody slags us off (but never me!)

The problem we have is that the starting 11 who came off both yesterday and v Southampton know, barring a catastrophe, will start our next game. We have had a bit of competition in the striker department-though yesterday I was disappointed Jay was not even there. JBG, Brownhill and Westwood have not particularly played well for a few games now.Cork adds a calmness to midfield and can read dangerous situations. Stephens may be wondering why he does not even get 10 minutes. It is one weakness of Dyche to be be loyal to the old guard and to his 442 system, then you watch Steve Bruce yesterday change things round and win the game. What was our ploy ??-introduce Mumbongo with 3 minutes of injury time.

warksclaret wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 12, 2021 9:49 am

then you watch Steve Bruce yesterday change things round and win the game.

Interestingly, Newcastle fans think he's utterly useless in that department when you read their forums.

CFS wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 12, 2021 3:42 am

Owners probably let dyche know how many fans didn't renew ST's because of that dross we were playing before. It's a step in the right direction playing better football but does dyche know how to set a team up to play that way?

Revenue from season tickets is not all that relevant in the greater scheme of things.
Place money in PL from playing result driven dross would be better financially for the new owners.

Devils_Advocate wrote: ↑

Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:18 pm

Barnes in for Vydra once he's fit. The footballs dogsh*t but it brings home the bacon

The shining light in this run is Vydra and Wood.

Barnes is a broken flush and Jay Rod needs to think about extending his career into the Championship.

I would rather us keep it tight and scrap out a boring 1 nil win, than winning 15 corners, spraying the ball to wings and seeing little end product.

Midfield is a problem. Brownhill is not good enough and is way off what is required at this level. Cork is getting long in the tooth along with Stephens. Westwood is still good enough but he needs a partner with pace and legs who can play with the ball at his feet. JBG is a crock with no pace. As soon as Brady looks like he is hitting the ground running he picks up an injury and is back to square one,with McNeil head and shoulders above the rest.

Tarkowski looks a world class player in a park the bus typical Dyche system, soon as we open up a little he's exposed for pace badly, he's incredibly slow. We dont play an expansive system most weeks so Tarkowski is a fine central defender in our system, it suits his game perfectly because he's good in the air, blocks well and is physical.

It just highlights the difference between playing for Burnley and a team like Leicester, our central defenders have the easiest job.

Top Claret wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 12, 2021 10:44 am

I would rather us keep it tight and scrap out a boring 1 nil win, than winning 15 corners, spraying the ball to wings and seeing little end product.

Midfield is a problem. Brownhill is not good enough and is way off what is required at this level. Cork is getting long in the tooth along with Stephens. Westwood is still good enough but he needs a partner with pace and legs who can play with the ball at his feet. JBG is a crock with no pace. As soon as Brady looks like he is hitting the ground running he picks up an injury and is back to square one,with McNeil head and shoulders above the rest.

100 percent agree with everything you have stated. Same with KRBFC.

Top Claret wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 12, 2021 10:44 am

I would rather us keep it tight and scrap out a boring 1 nil win, than winning 15 corners, spraying the ball to wings and seeing little end product.

Midfield is a problem. Brownhill is not good enough and is way off what is required at this level. Cork is getting long in the tooth along with Stephens. Westwood is still good enough but he needs a partner with pace and legs who can play with the ball at his feet. JBG is a crock with no pace. As soon as Brady looks like he is hitting the ground running he picks up an injury and is back to square one,with McNeil head and shoulders above the rest.

I wouldn't say Brownhill is way off and Westwood is good enough, I think they're pretty close in terms of ability. Cork definitely isn't the answer, people are forgetting how bad he was before injury. Stephens would struggle to get a game in League One imo, Stephens looks like he'd fit into a charity soccer aid type game or the 5-aside OAP walking football.

Spijed wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 12, 2021 9:54 am

Interestingly, Newcastle fans think he's utterly useless in that department when you read their forums.

Its not what the fans think that matters but what points are being gained. Give credit to them-they fought back v Spurs (dont need to remind you what Spurs did to us this season), and putting a neutral hat on got a great result yesterday (plus had a genuine penalty claim turned down) and we scrabbled one off the line too. They could so easily have won 4-1

warksclaret wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 12, 2021 11:48 am

Its not what the fans think that matters but what points are being gained.

Correct, and they are still below us in the league

Claret_tinted wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 12, 2021 10:34 am

The shining light in this run is Vydra and Wood.

Barnes is a broken flush and Jay Rod needs to think about extending his career into the Championship.

Agree-Vydra is playing his best football with us, and have to say after last season, Rodriguez has been a huge disappointment

KRBFC wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 12, 2021 11:34 am

I wouldn't say Brownhill is way off and Westwood is good enough, I think they're pretty close in terms of ability. Cork definitely isn't the answer, people are forgetting how bad he was before injury. Stephens would struggle to get a game in League One imo, Stephens looks like he'd fit into a charity soccer aid type game or the 5-aside OAP walking football.

In my opinion Westwood is miles clear of Brownhill.
Westwood can actually pass and cross. Brownhill struggles to do the basics.

If we are honest this summer we should clear out all of the CMs and keep just Westwood. Then go out find 3 CMs

Newcastleclaret93 wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 12, 2021 11:52 am

In my opinion Westwood is miles clear of Brownhill.
Westwood can actually pass and cross. Brownhill struggles to do the basics.

If we are honest this summer we should clear out all of the CMs and keep just Westwood. Then go out find 3 CMs

You don't rate Brownhill ?

How come you have never mentioned this before ?

We haven’t changed formation and put three central midfielders on against De Bruyne or Salah, so I don’t see why we should have done it against Saint Max. We’ve started with one up front occasionally but not very often.

There was nothing wrong with our formation or intent to get the winner, OK, Cork instead of Brownhill for his positional nous is a valid argument, the second goal was a simple case of Saint Max standing in space to receive a pass and we didn’t pay attention. Brownhill should have been aware of him but the pass was simple and passed him easily. Then Tarky should have rugby tackled him if necessary, the danger was obvious and a yellow card no problem. It’s about doing the cynical things.

claretonthecoast1882 wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 12, 2021 11:55 am

You don't rate Brownhill ?

How come you have never mentioned this before ?

The number of people that don’t rate him are growing, why do you only seem to have an issue when I comment on him?

I rate Brownhill and dont get why people slag him off (see my earlier post)

Woodleyclaret wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 12, 2021 1:02 pm

I rate Brownhill and dont get why people slag him off (see my earlier post)

You only have to see his lack of quality when on the ball to see why people slag him off.
Brownhill is a championship player with limited ability who would not get in any other Premier league side

And Josh has the second best interceptions in the Premier league so that's incorrect is it
I know Sky can bend the truth at times but I feel this stat is correct and at £8m Josh Brownhill was a bargain

Woodleyclaret wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 12, 2021 1:12 pm

And Josh has the second best interceptions in the Premier league so that's incorrect is it
I know Sky can bend the truth at times but I feel this stat is correct and at £8m Josh Brownhill was a bargain

I’m sorry but nitpicking one stat out of the 100s of different stats doesn’t show he is a good player.

You obviously rate him, please highlight what he offers this team other than a couple of interceptions a game?

If it is such a bargain please highlight what club in the premier league would sign him off us 8m?

Brownhill is doing fine and this talk of clearing out all the midfield except Westwood has not been thought through . That’s as kind as I can put it

Newcastleclaret93 wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 12, 2021 11:52 am

In my opinion Westwood is miles clear of Brownhill.
Westwood can actually pass and cross. Brownhill struggles to do the basics.

If we are honest this summer we should clear out all of the CMs and keep just Westwood. Then go out find 3 CMs

I don’t see Westwood being able to pass and cross, he’s capable of good passes like the lead up to our first goal but it’s far too inconsistent and way too many long aimless hoofs. I think we lack a goal threat from the middle of the pitch too

We'd play the same 11 in the same shape whether we were being expansive (last few games) or defensive (last few years). So it shouldn't need subs or complicated instructions for us to react to Newcastle bringing on their best 2 attackers by sitting in and stifling the game for 10 minutes.

It should have been really easy for us to react and do what we do best, but we didn't.

claretonthecoast1882 wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 12, 2021 11:50 am

Correct, and they are still below us in the league

Absolutely-should we be giving them 6 points and a double over us then ??

KRBFC wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 12, 2021 11:34 am

I wouldn't say Brownhill is way off and Westwood is good enough, I think they're pretty close in terms of ability. Cork definitely isn't the answer, people are forgetting how bad he was before injury. Stephens would struggle to get a game in League One imo, Stephens looks like he'd fit into a charity soccer aid type game or the 5-aside OAP walking football.

Cork bad before this latest injury? Or last year?

I'd say that Brownhill struggles at this level, and keeps making the same mistakes. Westwood is a solid prem midfielder. Cork is class. Stephens clearly wouldn't struggle to get a game in league one, that's a total nonsense statement.

I think, in answer to the open questions, rather than too expansive, what's been strange in the last 2 games, is that the central midfield 2 have been caught too square. Normally one sits, one goes, but look at the Newcastle 2nd yesterday, both square, high up the pitch and wide apart. That's very unusual of this midfield.

dandeclaret wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 12, 2021 2:30 pm

I think, in answer to the open questions, rather than too expansive, what's been strange in the last 2 games, is that the central midfield 2 have been caught too square. Normally one sits, one goes, but look at the Newcastle 2nd yesterday, both square, high up the pitch and wide apart. That's very unusual of this midfield.

Do you think that's purely down to Westwood and Brownhill not having the same understanding as was the case when Cork was playing?

No goals or assists from any subs this season is a damming statistic.

warksclaret wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 12, 2021 2:13 pm

Absolutely-should we be giving them 6 points and a double over us then ??

Using this logic, should we be taking

4 points off Arsenal
4 points off Everton
3 points off Liverpool (with a home game to come)
4 points off Villa
6 points off Palace and a double over them

Spijed wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 12, 2021 3:00 pm

Do you think that's purely down to Westwood and Brownhill not having the same understanding as was the case when Cork was playing?

I don't know Spijed, as early in the season, they seemed to have a good understanding. I thought Westwood looked off the pace, work rate wise, against Southampton - he's usually like the energiser bunny, but looked like he was gassed against Southampton. I thought he was below his normal standards against Newcastle as well, and that exacerbates the issue. Brownhill works hard, but he's a bit "Last ditch" rather than reading the game, and thus being out of position more often. If you take him out of position, and Westwood below standards, then that may explain it.

claretandy wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 12, 2021 3:04 pm

No goals or assists from any subs this season is a damming statistic.

Because we don't bloody make any

Where have we suddenly become so "expansive"

Thankfully, we now have a player in Vydra would makes a lot more runs down the chanels (behind the full backs and dragging CB's away from the middle) and also drops deeper sometimes for the ball

Everything else is the same - nobody else plays any different and we still have a weak midfield across the pitch

jojomk1 wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 12, 2021 5:48 pm

Where have we suddenly become so "expansive"

Thankfully, we now have a player in Vydra would makes a lot more runs down the chanels (behind the full backs and dragging CB's away from the middle) and also drops deeper sometimes for the ball

Everything else is the same - nobody else plays any different and we still have a weak midfield across the pitch

That’s just not true. We’ve committed a lot more bodies into our attack. The full backs have been more adventurous and our midfielders have both got into advanced positions much more frequently. This was to our detriment when both were caught too high up the pitch leaving our defence exposed against ASM, as Dan points out.

We've gone from a team that only had one string, but got the basics right, to one playing far nicer football, but We've let ourselves down by forgetting the basics.
We could, and should, have been out of sight. We need to start playing a lot smarter, and when we get a lead consolidate, then push again. We don't need to go gung ho, because then you're always one mistake away from disaster.
I wouldn't change the way we've played this last few months, it's been far more entertaining, we just need to cut out the errors. Hopefully we'll have a couple of new faces, and another bite at the Premier league next season to see how we develop.