This pretty passing football is very nice to watch but our success has been built on the defence. Far too often we have thrown away leads. That very rarely happened under the old system. We might have been sussed, both FBs bombing on is fine but teams are putting a player into their vacated position and Tarks and Mee are being dragged out to cover. This is leaving so much space for sides to break on us. Far better when attacking down one flank for the remaining back 3 to slide to that side but the far midfielder to drop back into FB and keep four across the defence.
They have all pre-season to work on improving what we are seeing now but currently it is flawed.

The attitude to game management at Fulham will be somewhat different I suspect.
A defeat would not wound us particularly badly but a point for us, almost, or a win, certainly, will kill off Fulham hopes.

huw.Y.WattfromWare wrote: ↑

Tue May 04, 2021 8:41 am

This pretty passing football is very nice to watch but our success has been built on the defence. Far too often we have thrown away leads. That very rarely happened under the old system. We might have been sussed, both FBs bombing on is fine but teams are putting a player into their vacated position and Tarks and Mee are being dragged out to cover. This is leaving so much space for sides to break on us. Far better when attacking down one flank for the remaining back 3 to slide to that side but the far midfielder to drop back into FB and keep four across the defence.
They have all pre-season to work on improving what we are seeing now but currently it is flawed.

I hope you have contacted the manager and his coaching staff in case they didn't realise this.

Targetman wrote: ↑

Tue May 04, 2021 9:11 am

I hope you have contacted the manager and his coaching staff in case they didn't realise this.

Well if they do they are not doing much about it.

Why is it we can't do both - attack at times then defend?

For instance we go 1-0 up against West Ham, then close down, except for occasional stints of attacking.

Pretty passing football ?

We need to play all our games away!!!

We’ve got the time to keep improving, the results will come playing this way and it something to take into next season

Hipper wrote: ↑

Tue May 04, 2021 9:18 am

Why is it we can't do both - attack at times then defend?

For instance we go 1-0 up against West Ham, then close down, except for occasional stints of attacking.

What if we'd have done that against Wolves, let them into the game and ended up drawing 1-1 because we didn't go for the second. You can't decide which games to shut up shop and which games to keep attacking after the game so both approaches will have both positives and negatives

Revert to marking, especially off the wings
Cut crosses and we cut out goals
The slack marking and the lack of tracking back especially by Dwight yesterday was poor

Throwing leads away is an obvious concern but performance wise I don’t think we’ve been too bad recently.
Better options from the bench is a must next season.

Woodleyclaret wrote: ↑

Tue May 04, 2021 9:53 am

Revert to marking, especially off the wings
Cut crosses and we cut out goals
The slack marking and the lack of tracking back especially by Dwight yesterday was poor

Often is. For all Dwight offers going forward he is quite often left dawdling around half way only spotting the danger after it is already too late.

We definitely didn't play pretty passing football last night - lots of channel balls and crosses from too deep though.

Ipreferaflan wrote: ↑

Tue May 04, 2021 10:11 am

We definitely didn't play pretty passing football last night - lots of channel balls and crosses from too deep though.

That is a very good point.

Maybe better to stop looking for reasons we got beat last night and accept that West Ham are a potential top 4 side this season who were at the top of their game last night.

We were not allowed to play and we were pressed all over the park for 90 mins. The fact that we were only a bad miss away from getting another Dyche like result says a lot for this Burnley team.

Although we deserved nothing last night we were unlucky for Lowton to go down and Brownhill being left to fill in at RB.
They might not have even got the cross away with Lowton out there.
Any other side they would have stayed down and held their head.

Ipreferaflan wrote: ↑

Tue May 04, 2021 10:11 am

We definitely didn't play pretty passing football last night - lots of channel balls and crosses from too deep though.

This. We played nothing like we did against Wolves.

Our tactics didn't work last night because a good team exploited them.

We defend narrow and let crosses come in.
The CHs don't man mark, they go to their positions and deal with danger that's in their area.

Teams often exploit it by getting crosses in and the CF peels off on to the fullback.

You would have to say it works most often or Dyche would change it.

huw.Y.WattfromWare wrote: ↑

Tue May 04, 2021 3:52 pm

Although we deserved nothing last night we were unlucky for Lowton to go down and Brownhill being left to fill in at RB.
They might not have even got the cross away with Lowton out there.
Any other side they would have stayed down and held their head.

This is very true.

But for Dwight not clearing his lines and Lowton not staying down (ref would have to have blown in my opinion), we’d have got a result last night.

I have really enjoyed our more attacking style, playing further up the pitch, but do worry about whether we might end up being a team that plays decent stuff but gets relegated next season if we don’t quickly find a way to find some defensive solidity!

In response to the OP, no.

We’ve been in the PL 5 years now, and it’s time to evolve.

There’ll be a balancing act, but we need to evidence that we are playing more progressive football if we are to attract a higher calibre player.

TsarBomba wrote: ↑

Tue May 04, 2021 7:04 pm

In response to the OP, no.

We’ve been in the PL 5 years now, and it’s time to evolve.

There’ll be a balancing act, but we need to evidence that we are playing more progressive football if we are to attract a higher calibre player.

Good point on attracting players. I do think that’s a factor in recruitment, not least because there’s not many teams that play “the Burnley way” to select players from otherwise.

TsarBomba wrote: ↑

Tue May 04, 2021 7:04 pm

In response to the OP, no.

We’ve been in the PL 5 years now, and it’s time to evolve.

There’ll be a balancing act, but we need to evidence that we are playing more progressive football if we are to attract a higher calibre player.

Any team that tries to evolve generally heads in one direction.

I'm never pleased with losing but to be fair but I am less disappointed with a result like last night than if the same had happened with us trying to park the bus after the first goal.

I also don't want to get into a Kevin Keegan/Eddie Howe approach of always relying on scoring more than the other side and coming away from games with several goals and being a nervous wreck anytime the opponent enters our half (who remembers those days where we conceded from the corners we had).

I think the philosophy of not conceding is a good foundation to work from. However, I think since Southampton onwards we have seen some good periods of football and we have seen some not so good. Just need to get that balance and consistency right. Nothing to play for now really so why not use this time to try and implement some new things into a competitive environment?

Spijed wrote: ↑

Tue May 04, 2021 7:40 pm

Any team that tries to evolve generally heads in one direction.

Well let’s not bother trying then

We’re talking about evolution here, not revolution. And there’s a real argument that we have regressed since the first half of our 7th placed season.

I don’t think anyone is advocating wholesale changes. A playmaker perhaps, or a direct right winger to balance out the first 11. Or a change of formation dependent on the opposition, so we are not overrun like last night.

Totally agree with Tsar on this.
We have to try to evolve tactically.
We could just stay as we are, but I feel that if we do this will be our last season at PL level.

Devils_Advocate wrote: ↑

Tue May 04, 2021 9:53 am

What if we'd have done that against Wolves, let them into the game and ended up drawing 1-1 because we didn't go for the second. You can't decide which games to shut up shop and which games to keep attacking after the game so both approaches will have both positives and negatives

I can't, no. But surely the manager can?

In any case I'm not saying we should go back to the Cotterill era. I just don't see why we either have to attack all game or defend all game. Why not ten minutes of one, five minutes of another etc..

Hipper wrote: ↑

Wed May 05, 2021 11:15 am

I can't, no. But surely the manager can?

In any case I'm not saying we should go back to the Cotterill era. I just don't see why we either have to attack all game or defend all game. Why not ten minutes of one, five minutes of another etc..

Individual errors aside, that's where I think we have lacked in recent months. Seems like we can attack effectively or defend but not switch effectively between the two in key moments of the game.

If we could learn to do that well we'd be a very good side.

NewClaret wrote: ↑

Wed May 05, 2021 11:50 am

Individual errors aside, that's where I think we have lacked in recent months. Seems like we can attack effectively or defend but not switch effectively between the two in key moments of the game.

If we could learn to do that well we'd be a very good side.

Is it about learning or is it about accepting the sides with bigger budgets can build better squads and do to do what you are wanting with inferior players to most squads in the division isn't as easy as a few words on a forum. Sheff Utd were a breath of fresh air last season, why aren't they this season ?

We played openly at Southampton and the players were accused of rolling over and being an embarrassment to the club, maybe if over reactions weren't so extreme for some and opposition taken into account this would also help.

TsarBomba wrote: ↑

Tue May 04, 2021 8:00 pm

Well let’s not bother trying then

We’re talking about evolution here, not revolution. And there’s a real argument that we have regressed since the first half of our 7th placed season.

I don’t think anyone is advocating wholesale changes. A playmaker perhaps, or a direct right winger to balance out the first 11. Or a change of formation dependent on the opposition, so we are not overrun like last night.

Completely agree about needing a different formation for the big teams. Teams like City and increasingly United have so much quality (an imagine they'll get more in summer) that we need something other than 4-4-2 if we don't want to get spanked.

I also think we need to change formation mid-game sometimes. That 10 minutes against WHU when they were clearly on top, why not put Vydra wide right for a while? He is so hard working. Just settle things down and then go 4-4-2 when we've regained some control of the game.

On the right winger, I'd love to see one with raw pace. That is a must for the summer. But think a playmaker and a winger will be too much to ask for given all the CH's we're going to need to buy

Nobody dominates 90mins, certainly not Burnley. The easiest time to concede is right after you've scored and against Southampton and West Ham, we should have just killed the game for 10 minutes.
It's a learning curve, as is somebody dropping back to cover a fb if he's pushed on. Personally I like to see us play the way we have since Villa, and the more we adopt it, the better we'll get at it. But there's definitely room for improvement.

SD speaks of transition, and the most of the start of the season we couldn't do it at all. Permanent defence.
Since Villa we've learnt how to transition from defence to attack, very successfully. Now we need to learn how to transition from attack back into defence.

How many times this early season did we all feel like switching off, after falling behind, because in our hearts we knew it was game over. Now we always look like we can get back into it, even when we don't, we always look like we have a chance.

claretonthecoast1882 wrote: ↑

Wed May 05, 2021 12:00 pm

Is it about learning or is it about accepting the sides with bigger budgets can build better squads and do to do what you are wanting with inferior players to most squads in the division isn't as easy as a few words on a forum. Sheff Utd were a breath of fresh air last season, why aren't they this season ?

We played openly at Southampton and the players were accused of rolling over and being an embarrassment to the club, maybe if over reactions weren't so extreme for some and opposition taken into account this would also help.

I definitely think some perspective is needed. WHU were as good a team as we have played this season bar City. We caught them on a good day, unfortunately.

But other teams have good players too. St Maximim & Ings were the difference between Newcastle and Southampton, so you just have to give some credit to their (very highly paid) players sometimes.

What I would like to see is us deploying some better tactics against these players - Grealish tore us a new one last season, St Maximim and Ings this. I wonder whether we'd be better deploying some man marking, etc, when individual players cause so much threat. Understand there's good arguments for playing your own game though.

If we came up playing limited football and went down playing limited football.

What would be the point?

A lot of money been and gone.

NewClaret wrote: ↑

Wed May 05, 2021 12:31 pm

I definitely think some perspective is needed. WHU were as good a team as we have played this season bar City. We caught them on a good day, unfortunately

What I would like to see is us deploying some better tactics against these players - Grealish tore us a new one last season, St Maximim and Ings this. I wonder whether we'd be better deploying some man marking, etc, when individual players cause so much threat. Understand there's good arguments for playing your own game though.

Watching the U17s and U23s it appears that we are coaching rigid 4-4-2 and very poor ball retention. This is a cause for concern as it seems to be all we want to do.

Colburn_Claret wrote: ↑

Wed May 05, 2021 12:07 pm

It's a learning curve, as is somebody dropping back to cover a fb if he's pushed on. Personally I like to see us play the way we have since Villa, and the more we adopt it, the better we'll get at it. But there's definitely room for improvement.

How many times this early season did we all feel like switching off, after falling behind, because in our hearts we knew it was game over. Now we always look like we can get back into it, even when we don't, we always look like we have a chance.

Good points. I always think we are capable of creating a chance now, but forget the start of the season where you felt you should switch off when we went behind.

As you say, if we could protect our defence better after scoring and continue to perfect this style so we mix the two, we could be very effective and enjoyable to watch.

For Fulham though, I'd anticipate an onslaught and a really tough game and bolster midfield. A loss wouldn't be fatal but I think we just need to show our experience and make sure before being too experimental.

boatshed bill wrote: ↑

Wed May 05, 2021 12:37 pm

Watching the U17s and U23s it appears that we are coaching rigid 4-4-2 and very poor ball retention. This is a cause for concern as it seems to be all we want to do.

All the age groups turn up and training begins "right lads its 4-4-2 and poor ball retention today lads ?

Well, it could look like that. I was shocked last night at how much better Huddersfield's youths were to ours. We had very little of the ball, couldn't find a decent pass when we had it. We need serious improvement . Perhaps we just don't get the best kids, I don't know, but watching this 4-4-2 set up was a real shocker. On a positive note, the back 4 defended very well under the circumstances