O/T I walked through the town centre yesterday...

[Rileybobs]

Removing parking charges would be a good step. People need to be encouraged to go. Rates need reducing too. There is a place for some retailers and smaller independents along with activity based shops. Shopping is about being sociable and active too. Otherwise we’ll all become gormless morons who never interact physically and just stare into computer screens. it’s a sad day when we only ever buy online

Shopping online frees up time to do more enjoyable sociable activities.

[WadingInDeeper]

I think there are a combination of factors for the decline on the high street, but I can't see a way back for them now.

The worst thing I think they did was the clamour for Sunday trading. Suddenly you have another days wages, heating etc but people still had the same amount to spend in shops. But, if you have a family and work on Sunday, do you want to go into town on Saturday or would you rather have family time then go to the out of town supermarket mid-week, which is suddenly selling everything you need, with an occasional foray into town. Introduce internet shopping, and suddenly you can create even more family time and have even less need to go into town.

Within 10 years of Sunday trading being introduced I found that I wasn't able to get everything I needed in town.

[what_no_pies]

Hebden Bridge is exclusively independents and thrives. Provide a unique shopping experience and people will come.

Offering anyone wanting to try opening their first shop 6 months on significantly reduced terms to test their business idea wouldn't only help to revive the high Street but it could also be a catalyst for a cultural revolution of sorts.

[NewClaret]

Council rates and landlord rents are the first problem.
Then dealing with the Internet rivals who have less overheads and can offer competitive prices.

I don't need many actual normal shops, simply because they offer me very little, same for millions of other people and many of them aren't open at accessible times during the week so people finish work and the only places they can usually shop are online or at a retail park.

Whole post was pretty much spot on but you’ve hit the nail on the head with these two points.

I will say there are success stories - Bank Street in Rawtenstall is a thriving town centre. That is just opposite a massive supermarket and a retail park isn’t far away.

I personally do want our high streets to have a future but it needs coordinated approach from central and local governments.

- Huge rate reductions (paid for by an online transaction tax) and Supermarket transaction tax (where they’re located near high streets).
- Complete rates relief for “essential” shops like a butchers, bakers, post office, bank, so that all towns have a basic offering.
- Retail rent caps by region on a cost per sq foot basis.
- Changes to opening hours so they’re open all day at weekends and in to evenings. They should have more favourable hours than say Supermarkets.
- Consolidation of centres in to key areas that can be sustained (suspect the reason Rawtenstall is reasonably successful is that is actually quite small/compact).
- Introduction/investment in markets to offer traders an entry point.
- General repurposing in to family-focussed leisure facilities and addition of residential to become truly mixed use.

[XDS]

I find our town centre quite intimidating at times, groups of youngsters flying around on bikes and skateboards, the language they use is beyond industrial then there's the beggars hanging around shops, cash machines and almost every corner, finally every time i go in town i never hear an English voice, i don't want to sound racist at all but the look of some of the foriegner's make me very reluctant to go into to town

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Don't focus on the voice, it's body language you should be watching out for.

You're more likely to have an issue with a British person than a foreign person in town centres.

I've had one issue with a foreign lad these last 12 months, compared to half a dozen English lads.

[Vintage Claret]

On a brighter note the 2nd hand market is re-opening on Wednesday.

Always enjoyed having a mooch around it if I wasn't working and have picked up a few bargains there over the years (and a fair bit of tat)

[miele-man]

Retail will be back , lower rents , lower rates and shops selling items that people want .
People do like to walk around and look at stuff .
My sales are doing well with both on-line and in store and we expect to open more retail stores once the landlords realise a reasonable rent charge ,
I suspect they have already and are attempting to bluff it out.
Council rates are about to change as well .
Find a product that people want and they will come

[Billy Balfour]

There's not much the council can do about Business rates - they are set by central government. They can't do much either about rents, given that most of the town centre is owned by the private sector.

Entertainment hubs, café/restaurants and independent craft shops are the way forward. One thing that should be done now; a big clampdown on begging and antisocial behaviour. Make the town centre a more welcoming place where families go to relax as well as shop and eat.

[Devils_Advocate]

Then in a few years time, the very people doing all their shopping online will be asking, what the hell happened to the town centre?

Its the generation of people over 50 who embraced big supermarkets and out of town shopping outlets. Seems its now that generation moaning about the demise of the town centre.

One thing you lot are consistent on though is blaming it all on the young.

[Burnley Ace]

Removing parking charges would be a good step. People need to be encouraged to go. Rates need reducing too. There is a place for some retailers and smaller independents along with activity based shops. Shopping is about being sociable and active too. Otherwise we’ll all become gormless morons who never interact physically and just stare into computer screens. it’s a sad day when we only ever buy online

Removing parking charges just gives free all day parking for workers. If you can’t afford £2.50 then how much are you going to spend in the shops?

[Burnley Ace]

There's not much the council can do about Business rates - they are set by central government. They can't do much either about rents, given that most of the town centre is owned by the private sector.

Entertainment hubs, café/restaurants and independent craft shops are the way forward. One thing that should be done now; a big clampdown on begging and antisocial behaviour. Make the town centre a more welcoming place where families go to relax as well as shop and eat.

You can’t clamp down on begging, it’s not PC.

[Billy Balfour]

If you can’t afford £2.50 then how much are you going to spend in the shops?

I agree. £1.60 for a couple of hours in Burnley is hardly bank breaking. If such a paltry amount to park a car is going to put some people off, then maybe they are the type of people who don't go anywhere near town or city centres.

[bfccrazy]

It needs a drastic idea. Perhaps they should have a massive open market day in the town, with there being prizes of empty shops being given away or subsidised for a year rent free by local govt. Invite anyone locally or further afield who wants to sell anything; clothes, flowers, food and drink, crockery etc etc to set up a stall, create some design work to show off a brand. People could vote on an app, to determine which sellers they'd like to see have a shop in the town, and those sellers would have a year paying no rent to try and make it work.

They tried this with offering “6 months free” a while back but the hoops people had to jump through to qualify still put them off.

[cricketfieldclarets]

How sad.

You can see that work has been done to repair the footways and tidy the place up a bit but, the shops

Bookies, Charity Shop, Building Society, Coffee Shop, Cafe, Bookies, Charity Shop, Building Society, two Romanians rummaging through a skip, Coffee Shop, Empty... etc etc

Burtons is closed, with blacked-out windows (just as well given my promised, had we been relegated )

Nearly as sad and tired as Bolton town centre that, some years ago, was one of the best in the North.

Yes, there were people enjoying their coffee in the hazy sunshine, trying to make the most of a bad job.

The answer to the tired town centre? On a postcard, or empty fag packet, to

"People with lots of money to invest"

3rd Dirty Doorstep

BURNLEY

BB11 1AA

P.S. This is NOT a political thread and would prefer that it remains "apolitical"

I must be on my own in thinking a lot of money has been spent on nice cafes and bars among other things.

[RalphCoatesComb]

I must be on my own in thinking a lot of money has been spent on nice cafes and bars among other things.

That would be fine, if there were other retail shops to surround them

[RingoMcCartney]

Council rates and landlord rents are the first problem.
Then dealing with the Internet rivals who have less overheads and can offer competitive prices.

Add in the drive to make edge of town shopping centres with the large outlet stores over the last 20-30 yrs and it's no surprise to see town centres disappearing.

They're generally littered with charity, gambling, coffee and fast food shops.

Supermarkets morphed from food only shops into one stop mega shops that have everything from food, to clothing to electrical items and even banking.

Then successive governments failed to catch up to a changing world and change the tax laws so companies like Amazon can dodge a lot and make millions whilst crushing competitors.

What exactly do you need from a town centre/high street?
Probably not a great deal if we are all honest.

Having to deal with shop staff who can't be arsed, or idiots wandering around blocking the aisles with their trollies /pushchairs etc whilst chatting to their mates or failing to control their horde of children isn't really that appealing to someone when they can buy online and get same or next day.
Then you've got thieves trying to pick your pocket, especially in the bigger cities.
Even retail parks present the problem of people who're simply incapable of parking within the lines...

Covid showed how selfish/stupid people can be when out shopping as they're incapable of following really simple guidelines/one way systems in shops
It also helped speed up the process of taking people into the world of online shopping instead.

Books - Kindle, takes up less space, wider variety, better prices and some authors do their first book for free, especially if its the start of a series.

Music - YouTube, Amazon, Spotify etc negates the need for physical CD's, records etc unless you're a purist.
Personally I pay £7.99 a month for youtube so I can stream directly to one of my cars and I can listen to lots of remixes done my some really talented people who aren't, or can't, be mainstream.

Films/TV - again why collect films on DvD etc when pretty much everything can be watched or purchased on line?
No need to have a physical collection that needs to be updated with the latest format.

Clothes - there are online stores that offer free returns, saves the need to go into a shop and try things on, but the majority of people have a favoured clothes shop so they already know which size is correct for that particular shop so they can order online from there.

Food - grocery can be delivered, same with take out food and other stuff like fags/booze.

Gaming - the likes of Steam, Xbox and Sony regularly offer great deals online, inc the ability to oay x amount a month to play a wide range of games without actually committing yourself to buying them, making physical shops redundant.

I don't need many actual normal shops, simply because they offer me very little, same for millions of other people and many of them aren't open at accessible times during the week so people finish work and the only places they can usually shop are online or at a retail park.

Signs of vitamin D deficiency-

Frequent illness or infections

Bone and back pain

Low mood

Hair loss

Muscle pain

Fatigue and tiredness.

[Tribesmen]

Hebden Bridge is exclusively independents and thrives. Provide a unique shopping experience and people will come.

Bang on , now have not lived in Burnley for at least 40 years but the above post has it bang on .

Times change as Pubs are not what they used to be , now it's coffee shops , hummmm will they last i am not sure as it's the lastest big thing and people will move on to the next .
For myself who lives in a different country , i live in the sticks so can't drink and drive as for coffee shops well i reallly love coffee so 14 year ago i bought the top of the range coffee machine so i drink at home or take a cup to work .
Times change for everything and Burnley will come back but not how you see it today .

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Signs of vitamin D deficiency-

Frequent illness or infections

Bone and back pain

Low mood

Hair loss

Muscle pain

Fatigue and tiredness.

I wasn't asking about your medical history

[karatekid]

Does anyone know what happened to the proposed McDonald’s at the old bus station in Nelson. Drove past the other day and the demolition hasn’t even been finished. Looks like the builders left in a hurry.

[RingoMcCartney]

I wasn't asking about your medical history

I didnt give it !

[Cirrus_Minor]

I’m looking forward to the levelling up.

[RingoMcCartney]

Does anyone know what happened to the proposed McDonald’s at the old bus station in Nelson. Drove past the other day and the demolition hasn’t even been finished. Looks like the builders left in a hurry.

At least it sounds as if they've improved the look of the place then.

[Vegas Claret]

The rents for shops in the town are quite expensive, that has long needed looking at

[GodIsADeeJay81]

I didnt give it !

You're suggesting that not wandering around shops and ordering online leads to the list of issues that you've presented.

People can find better ways to spend their time than being stuck in shops dragging their unwilling kids with them.

[tim_noone]

I wasn't asking about your medical history

[RingoMcCartney]

You're suggesting that not wandering around shops and ordering online leads to the list of issues that you've presented.

People can find better ways to spend their time than being stuck in shops dragging their unwilling kids with them.

I'm suggesting you've had a senseofhumourectomy. Did you have the procedure done while you were in hospital at the rickets clinic?!

[claret wizard]

The irony is that online retail is a massive employer in Burnley. I’d go as far to say that it more than compensates for the loss of high street jobs in the town. In reality the Chester’s and Bournemouth’s mentioned on this thread are seeing their high street jobs migrating to Burnley’s online retail. Debenhams is based here now!

[brexit]

If the council can reduce rates there is hope for the town centre.
I can see a lot people who worked from home wanting to set up shops in the centre.

[Rowls]

Massive rates reductions are the way forward. Where there's a will there's a way on that front.

There's also a massive opportunity to redesign our town centres and turn them into "social centres" rather than shopping outlet zones. They could have open, green spaces, bars, cafes, pubs, more affordable central housing closer to facilities and venues etc.

This isn't the doom that some people are making it out to be - there are enormous opportunities to build something better if online shopping continues to free up space in our town and city centres.

[Devils_Advocate]

There's also a massive opportunity to redesign our town centres and turn them into "social centres" rather than shopping outlet zones. They could have open, green spaces, bars, cafes, pubs, more affordable central housing closer to facilities and venues etc.

This is spot on. The days of people needing to go into the town centre have gone so you need a reason for people to want to go there. If you get this right good retail shops will build around it.

Its why city's like Leeds where I live still thrive. The Trinity centre has a great mix of retail, social and leisure activities and as a result people still like to go and spend time in and around it for enjoyment.

[Jakubclaret]

The rents for shops in the town are quite expensive, that has long needed looking at

The pitches on the market stalls are expensive as well, more needs to be done to reduce the costs & stimulate entrepreneurship with bias towards reward than risk, we have to be less greedy & more willing to help people especially small businesses to thrive.

[Vegas Claret]

The pitches on the market stalls are expensive as well, more needs to be done to reduce the costs & stimulate entrepreneurship with bias towards reward than risk, we have to be less greedy & more willing to help people especially small businesses to thrive.

agree 100%, I remember back in the early 90's you couldn't get a stall in the closed market for love nor money, last time I walked through (a good 4 years ago) I was gobsmacked at how many vacant stalls there were - is the outside one even a thing anymore ?

[Jakubclaret]

agree 100%, I remember back in the early 90's you couldn't get a stall in the closed market for love nor money, last time I walked through (a good 4 years ago) I was gobsmacked at how many vacant stalls there were - is the outside one even a thing anymore ?

It’s not just burnley it’s nationwide, Nelson arndale/Pendle rise downstairs on a weekday it’s almost empty, are the councils really bothered though.

[Vegas Claret]

It’s not just burnley it’s nationwide, Nelson arndale/Pendle rise downstairs on a weekday it’s almost empty, are the councils really bothered though.

now I might be mistaken, but I'm sure someone once told me the council is involved in the process of setting rent prices, so if that is true then seemingly they aren't bothered

[ClaretTony]

I’d much prefer to clothes shop in person than online but the choice of “men shops” in Burnley is woeful, Burtons was the only place that had a decent amount of options but even then didn’t always have what I wanted.

Th men’s section in Next is the same size as my spare bedroom and even in M&S the men’s section seems an afterthought

Couldn't agree more. I do a lot of online shopping, considerably more in the last year or so, but clothes shopping online is not for me. I knew Burtons had closed down so I assume the queue for the window for those saying they'd visit if we stayed up has now disappeared. If I wanted to go clothes shopping previously I would always pop on the bus to Manchester, much more choice there.

I was in the town centre on Monday this week, visiting the old Roy Marlor/Next shop in town. It's not good is it?

[cricketfieldclarets]

That would be fine, if there were other retail shops to surround them

Tessuti just spent a hell of a lot on a brand new store in town. Looks great and will attract plenty of younger shoppers.

Another example.

[RammyClaret61]

Its the generation of people over 50 who embraced big supermarkets and out of town shopping outlets. Seems its now that generation moaning about the demise of the town centre.

One thing you lot are consistent on though is blaming it all on the young.

No mention of the young whatsoever. But you continue to put words in my mouth. Btw, I agree it all started with the out of town shopping centres in the 80’s & 90’s. But a lot of towns were getting an identity back. The main problem now, I think, greedy landlords.

[Vegas Claret]

Hebden Bridge is exclusively independents and thrives. Provide a unique shopping experience and people will come.

Offering anyone wanting to try opening their first shop 6 months on significantly reduced terms to test their business idea wouldn't only help to revive the high Street but it could also be a catalyst for a cultural revolution of sorts.

Wow, that's superb!

[fatboy47]

It's Burnley, not Barcelona.

Why anyone would voluntarily spend time grubbing round such a grot hole when it's avoidable is beyond me.

Bury Market is worth a visit if youve had enough of the out of town stores. Barley's fine for a stroll and a pint. Just avoid Burnley and its ilk...they re wastelands..leave them to the social detritus they're becoming riddled with.

[taio]

It's Burnley, not Barcelona.

Why anyone would voluntarily spend time grubbing round such a grot hole when it's avoidable is beyond me.

Bury Market is worth a visit if youve had enough of the out of town stores. Barley's fine for a stroll and a pint. Just avoid Burnley and its ilk...they re wastelands..leave them to the social detritus they're becoming riddled with.

What a first class knobhead you must be for posting this on a Burnley messageboard.

[blackburnturfite]

I went to Blackburn to my Building society, exactly the same, it pays to look at other centres, before you find fault with your own , it will take time for shoppers to return to normal life as we knew it.

[claret2018]

A lot of good points made on this thread. Personally I can’t see a revival of town centres as a place to go shopping - we can do this online - I can’t remember the last time I went to a town centre to shop. Buying clothes online is a piece of cake once you’re used to it, a lot of websites have excellent fit-finders that point you towards your correct size in a particular item.

It’s difficult to know what to do with town centres like Burnley. I don’t live there, and it would never cross my mind to go there for any other reason than matchday.

[CrosspoolClarets]

A good article about this:

https://www.thegrocer.co.uk/high-street ... 96.article

My view (long term):

1. Planning reform - may town centres like Burnley full of shared office workspace (for the modern, flexible working environment), and accommodation (more than now)

2. Business Rates reform - simply too expensive now for businesses to thrive

3. Leisure facilities and more cafes and restaurants (linked to ‘1’ and ‘2’)

4. Shops more aimed at local businesses - farm shops, hairdressers, market, craft beer pubs, spirts facilities, small hotels, BFC outlet, etc.

Basically centres would evolve to be the desirable place to live for people of a certain demographic - young and / or single, retirement communities (some older folk want some pleasant hustle and bustle around them), students. Suburbs would remain the place desirable to raise families.

A gradual shift to this kind of model (seen in other countries) would make people (including the middle classes) choose to go into the centre for an afternoon or evening, rather than, say, going for a pub lunch in a nice village outside (which would still have its place but not so much as the only option).

There isn’t much money sloshing around in Burnley but the gradual shift in more people choosing to stay close to home that would result would gradually raise disposable income and make these places viable. It needn’t be one way decline. To keep this view away from politics - the answers are to be found away from government, in think tanks and articles like the one attached.

[Jakubclaret]

now I might be mistaken, but I'm sure someone once told me the council is involved in the process of setting rent prices, so if that is true then seemingly they aren't bothered

The rent was £115 a week for a small market stall a couple of years ago maybe more now I’m not sure, so even before you sell 1 item you are £115 down & then you need to factor in a reasonable profit margin after the wholesalers cost price whilst competing online & with the bigger chains, it’s a hard life for many.

[Pstotto]

I had a walk round the town on the same day and it seemed quite nice apart from the '1984'-style hideous women's voice in the precinct area.

Just a few points:

1. We don't know how climate change will affect the future of the town. Given that 2021 is one of the worse weather years I can remember, we might lose the gulf stream and Burnley might become a ski resort or it may become warm and with a totally different outlook.

2. We don't know how long the Internet age will last. People may wake up to the fact of predictive computing and throw the lot away.

3, If there is a return to plenty of 'inner city' housing then there will be a ready market for shopping on one's doorstep.

4. The problem is not Burnley's per se and every town is suffering the same economic fall-out from a war of some sort.

5. The notion of 'freedom of choice' on the Internet is fast becoming a myth. I checked out 'Saxophone' on Amazon and the only brands prominent were EASTAR and AMMOON.

I've never heard of either, so that shows Amazon will take after it gives.

[timshorts]

How sad.

You can see that work has been done to repair the footways and tidy the place up a bit but, the shops

Bookies, Charity Shop, Building Society, Coffee Shop, Cafe, Bookies, Charity Shop, Building Society, two Romanians rummaging through a skip, Coffee Shop, Empty... etc etc

Burtons is closed, with blacked-out windows (just as well given my promised, had we been relegated )

Nearly as sad and tired as Bolton town centre that, some years ago, was one of the best in the North.

Yes, there were people enjoying their coffee in the hazy sunshine, trying to make the most of a bad job.

The answer to the tired town centre? On a postcard, or empty fag packet, to

"People with lots of money to invest"

3rd Dirty Doorstep

BURNLEY

BB11 1AA

P.S. This is NOT a political thread and would prefer that it remains "apolitical"

The new North South divide appears to be that the South has in most similar sections a vape shop and a nail shop/beauty salon that is probably a front for laundering drug money......

[claret_in_exile]

So incredibly sad. At some point we’re going to have to decide what sort of society we actually want to live in because it seems like everything will be done online if we don’t get a grip.

The last 15 months have shown you exactly what is in society's future, unfortunately.

[Loyalclaret]

Selfless youths, who have given up a year or two of their best years to help older generations?

[Pstotto]

Timshorts, where I live there are about 4 nail shops next to each other. The money is in stripping bankrupt businesses and shop-re-fitting, sometimes four times in one year, even.

The latest opened yesterday: German Doner Kebab perhaps in the architectural footprint of where a church stood before the Germans bombed it during the war and not a German in sight but quite a few Albanians, not that I suspect anything untoward.

With art, there's the hallowed stock and then the transport and insurance for the endless gallery events as they shuffle the pack and transport guess what with a Picasso to wherever.

Rob Brinx Matt or do a canvas with a splash of tortured abstraction?

On the BBC today, no new gas boilers after 2025 for climate change.

This entails the new object manufacture/transport/insurance/invention/decommissioning/disposal of/replacement of perhaps 6 billion units around the world and no carbon footprint for that yah, plus the taking out of the gas and coal industry and that carbon footprint.

London Stadium how many roofs in how many years?

How much seating taken out and then put back in again?

There's still every town's shopping centre and someone with an idea.