Then that was me too, in real time on TV I thought it was off, it was the VAR that made it look closerarise_sir_charge wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 10:41 amAnyone who says it was clear with the naked eye in real time is talking absolute ********.
FA Cup Final.
Re: FA Cup Final.
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Re: FA Cup Final.
You thought it was off.....not that it was clearly off.
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Re: FA Cup Final.
I'd always believed that VAR was introduced to deal with clear and obvious errors. I don't think even Colin or Pig Sham, let alone the most partisan Leicester supporter could honestly say that was a clear and obvious error. For me, the VAR needs to operate something similar to cricket's 'Umpire's call'. In a situation like that you just go with the ref's/lino's original decision.
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Re: FA Cup Final.
I didn't get my specs from Specsavers, they came from a superb optician and my eyesight is spot on, as is my judgement, as proved by VAR which is NEVER wrong!arise_sir_charge wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 10:41 amAnyone who says it was clear with the naked eye in real time is talking absolute ********.
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Re: FA Cup Final.
Going back to Leicester's goal, I always thought if there was a handball incident by the attacking side in the build up -accidental or not - the handball was always given.
Has that been changed now?
Has that been changed now?
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Re: FA Cup Final.
Does anyone know what’s going on anymore? I thought that it had to be the scorer or player assisting.dougcollins wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 3:33 pmGoing back to Leicester's goal, I always thought if there was a handball incident by the attacking side in the build up -accidental or not - the handball was always given.
Has that been changed now?
I’m sure it’s there to find out but most have lost the will to live on some of these VAR issues
Re: FA Cup Final.
I don't understand the whole leave the flag down rubbish, do they just make it up as they go along?dsr wrote: ↑Sat May 15, 2021 11:12 pmI'm not even sure that the five "offsides" actually count as offside. As far as I know, the linesmen are still flagwaving on the basis that level is onside. When it's too close to call, it's onside. VAR of course is working on the basis that there is no such thing as level, which (in spite of what they try to tell us) is a change of the rule.
So if two players are level and a goal is not scored, it is onside. If two players are level and a goal is scored, the "level does not exist" rule comes into play and VAR has to make its best guess as to who is the fraction of the inch nearer the goal line.
Vydra yesterday in the first half, wasn't flagged offside initially, 30 seconds later the ref put his flag up but he didn't let the move play out, we still had the ball near the edge of the box. The replay showed Vydra was close to onside (if I remember correctly).
Re: FA Cup Final.
Forget laughing at Chelsea, this VAR issue is bigger than laughing at Chelsea.
For football in general it just has to go, my opinion doesn't change depending on who the awful decision benefits.
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Re: FA Cup Final.
The reason for the linesman leaving his flag down is because under the new VAR offside law, it is literally impossible for the lineman to know whether it's offside or not. The human eye cannot judge whose shoelace is further forward. so having made it impossible for the linesman to give an accurate decision, they have to have an element of "wait and see" or else they will start to disallow loads of goals that would be legal even under the new law, as well as those that would have been legal under the old law but illegal under the new.KRBFC wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 5:39 pmI don't understand the whole leave the flag down rubbish, do they just make it up as they go along?
Vydra yesterday in the first half, wasn't flagged offside initially, 30 seconds later the ref put his flag up but he didn't let the move play out, we still had the ball near the edge of the box. The replay showed Vydra was close to onside (if I remember correctly).
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Re: FA Cup Final.
They really made a mess of that, the incident wasn't yet played out - the whole point of not raising the flag is to play it out to a conclusion, then VAR can check.KRBFC wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 5:39 pmI don't understand the whole leave the flag down rubbish, do they just make it up as they go along?
Vydra yesterday in the first half, wasn't flagged offside initially, 30 seconds later the ref put his flag up but he didn't let the move play out, we still had the ball near the edge of the box. The replay showed Vydra was close to onside (if I remember correctly).
But it's no wonder the linos are as confused as everybody else.
Re: FA Cup Final.
Calm down dear, it was a light hearted joke at the expense of Chelsea.
For the record though, VAR has to be kept for some types of incidents where the ref or assistant ref misses what happened; handball; foul play; etc. I do think a review of the process for offsides using VAR is needed. The accuracy for decisions isn’t there, the error parameters are not accurate enough. I proposed a method whereby the error levels would be integrated into the line used (fat line) and it they even touched at all it wouldn’t be offside, but I’m an IT guy with a degree in engineering - what would I know eh...
Re: FA Cup Final.
No but for the Vydra one yesterday, he raised his flag 20 seconds later when the attack was still ongoing. Completely defeated the whole purpose of leaving the flag down to let the attack play out for VAR to intervene later.dsr wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 6:16 pmThe reason for the linesman leaving his flag down is because under the new VAR offside law, it is literally impossible for the lineman to know whether it's offside or not. The human eye cannot judge whose shoelace is further forward. so having made it impossible for the linesman to give an accurate decision, they have to have an element of "wait and see" or else they will start to disallow loads of goals that would be legal even under the new law, as well as those that would have been legal under the old law but illegal under the new.
A possible explanation is he got told in his ear Vydra was definitely offside but surely Stockley Park aren't calling offsides as the games ongoing?
Re: FA Cup Final.
Yeah we were still attacking, in good position and the flag goes up, was Vydra even offside? I can't remember what the replay showed, I just remember it was close.dougcollins wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 7:08 pmThey really made a mess of that, the incident wasn't yet played out - the whole point of not raising the flag is to play it out to a conclusion, then VAR can check.
But it's no wonder the linos are as confused as everybody else.
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Re: FA Cup Final.
Replay suggested Vydra was on.KRBFC wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 8:57 pmNo but for the Vydra one yesterday, he raised his flag 20 seconds later when the attack was still ongoing. Completely defeated the whole purpose of leaving the flag down to let the attack play out for VAR to intervene later.
A possible explanation is he got told in his ear Vydra was definitely offside but surely Stockley Park aren't calling offsides as the games ongoing?
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Re: FA Cup Final.
What they are actually saying is that, a guy who has worked his way up the ladder as an official through years of hard work and who has given decisions that occur in every football match, is now unable to give a decision because there is too much money involved.dsr wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 6:16 pmThe reason for the linesman leaving his flag down is because under the new VAR offside law, it is literally impossible for the lineman to know whether it's offside or not. The human eye cannot judge whose shoelace is further forward. so having made it impossible for the linesman to give an accurate decision, they have to have an element of "wait and see" or else they will start to disallow loads of goals that would be legal even under the new law, as well as those that would have been legal under the old law but illegal under the new.
Yet, when it comes to the play-off semi-finals and finals they deem that the officials are fit to do the job without VAR interference.
It is no wonder fans are confused, the officials must also be confused because, apart from quite a number, there are quite a few officials who are in PL one week, perhaps Championship the next or even in the VAR room. The job has been complicated with VAR intervention and the changes to several Laws to accommodate the use of VAR.
Re: FA Cup Final.
Not really - it's not that they saying that this very experienced person can't make the decision, they are saying that no-one can make the decision. No human can decide which of two moving people was half an inch further forward at a given hundredth of a second. (VAR can't do it either, which is why Chilwell very likely was onside when the ball was kicked yesterday; he was an inch or two offside just after the ball was kicked, but he was sprinting forward and was almost certainly onside in the previous frame.)Ashingtonclaret46 wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 9:44 pmWhat they are actually saying is that, a guy who has worked his way up the ladder as an official through years of hard work and who has given decisions that occur in every football match, is now unable to give a decision because there is too much money involved.
Yet, when it comes to the play-off semi-finals and finals they deem that the officials are fit to do the job without VAR interference.
It is no wonder fans are confused, the officials must also be confused because, apart from quite a number, there are quite a few officials who are in PL one week, perhaps Championship the next or even in the VAR room. The job has been complicated with VAR intervention and the changes to several Laws to accommodate the use of VAR.
Humans can decide with a reasonable probability of success whether a player is level or not. If the PL went back to the old rule of level being onside, and forgot this stupid fantasy that the law makers of 30 years ago meant "to the nearest millimeter" when they specifically said they diodn't mean that, then the linesman could give his decision as normal.
Re: FA Cup Final.
Do you have an opinion on why the new instructions were given this season, or was that a "no-one is paying attention to me and I don't like being ignored" sort of comment?Devils_Advocate wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 7:02 pmThats not the reason for the linesman leaving down their flags.
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Re: FA Cup Final.
If they want to keep this silly offside ruling then, if the attacker is onside in the one frame immediately prior to the frame showing him to be offside, then he gets the benefit and is classed as onside.
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Re: FA Cup Final.
VAR is helping to take the game away from the players and supporters in the ground. As DSR says the millimeters they are trying to work to cannot be gauged by supporters or players. How can defenders judge their positions, attackers judge their runs, supporters follow the game properly? Its reducing enjoyment, understanding of the people who really count. It's becoming a different gamenfrom amateur and lower level pros. Is this what they wanted? On any sort of cost/benefit analysis it needs binning or wholesale change (stop the lines) for offsides at least.
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Re: FA Cup Final.
You stated "The reason for the linesman leaving his flag down is because under the new VAR offside law, it is literally impossible for the lineman to know whether it's offside or not"
Thats not true. The reason linesman are told to leave their flags down under the new VAR offside law is to allow the phase of play to play out where there is potential for a goal to be scored. Once that phase or opportunity ceases the linesman should raise their flag if thats what they thought was the correct decision
This is not specific to the really tight decisions but for any offside call unless it is really obvious and the linesman is in absolutely no doubt they should keep their flag down.
This could for example be when a player is a couple of feet offside and the reason for keeping the flag down is that you can go back and give offside after the goal has been scored but you cannot go back and give the attacking team the goal scoring opportunity if you raise your flag and it turns out to be onside.
Re: FA Cup Final.
Whatever happened to “Play to the whistle”...? If players just waited for the ref to blow and ignored the assistant ref with the flag this wouldn’t be a problem
Re: FA Cup Final.
And you need to take it back one phase further, the reason they want that phase of play to continue is because it is impossible for the linesman to judge close offsides so he is bound to get half of them wrong.Devils_Advocate wrote: ↑Mon May 17, 2021 2:32 pmYou stated "The reason for the linesman leaving his flag down is because under the new VAR offside law, it is literally impossible for the lineman to know whether it's offside or not"
Thats not true. The reason linesman are told to leave their flags down under the new VAR offside law is to allow the phase of play to play out where there is potential for a goal to be scored. Once that phase or opportunity ceases the linesman should raise their flag if thats what they thought was the correct decision
This is not specific to the really tight decisions but for any offside call unless it is really obvious and the linesman is in absolutely no doubt they should keep their flag down.
This could for example be when a player is a couple of feet offside and the reason for keeping the flag down is that you can go back and give offside after the goal has been scored but you cannot go back and give the attacking team the goal scoring opportunity if you raise your flag and it turns out to be onside.
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Re: FA Cup Final.
Thats what happened originally but everyone moaned about that so they decided to tell the linesmen to keep their flags down.
If you all stopped blaming everything on the referees and accepted they do their best and make the decision they see fit then we would be in a lot better place and wouldn't of ended up with VAR in the first place
The grass is always green springs to mind
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Re: FA Cup Final.
Its not though as usual you're inventing your own narrative out of your own thought process and expecting everyone to base their arguments on your opinion.
The reason they want the phase of play to continue is because they can check all decisions after the event and this is the only way you will always get to make a decision between goal or offside.
This also happens with decisions not related to offside like handball where a ref will let a situation play out before blowing the whistle.
Im not arguing whether your wider point around the use of VAR for offside is right or wrong but what you stated to support it is simply not true.
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Re: FA Cup Final.
Well Ashington uses a better optician than the liner on the day as he didn’t think it was offside in real time. He was closer to it than anybody and thought he was onside.
Chilwell was at worst level but this bizarre desire to cancel perfectly good goals is getting in the way of common sense.
The simple reality is that the tech isn’t fit for purpose and as such the offside interpretation within VAR needs to take account for this with a suitable margin for error applied.
Chilwell was at worst level but this bizarre desire to cancel perfectly good goals is getting in the way of common sense.
The simple reality is that the tech isn’t fit for purpose and as such the offside interpretation within VAR needs to take account for this with a suitable margin for error applied.
Re: FA Cup Final.
Pandora's box is well and truly open though. We cannot revert back to human error as VAR is here and the broadcasters will destroy any official that makes a mistake, along with the public who will feed off the vitriol on TV.arise_sir_charge wrote: ↑Mon May 17, 2021 4:14 pmWell Ashington uses a better optician than the liner on the day as he didn’t think it was offside in real time. He was closer to it than anybody and thought he was onside.
Chilwell was at worst level but this bizarre desire to cancel perfectly good goals is getting in the way of common sense.
The simple reality is that the tech isn’t fit for purpose and as such the offside interpretation within VAR needs to take account for this with a suitable margin for error applied.
The only option moving forward is to improve the current system.
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Re: FA Cup Final.
Perhaps although I’d hope that there is now more of an understanding from spectators than there was previously.
That said, if it is to say, it’s use needs to be reviewed and tweaked accordingly. Allow for the inaccuracy of the tech and you’ll immediately have a better solution.
That said, if it is to say, it’s use needs to be reviewed and tweaked accordingly. Allow for the inaccuracy of the tech and you’ll immediately have a better solution.
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Re: FA Cup Final.
its this - absolutely, but again fans need to understand.arise_sir_charge wrote: ↑Mon May 17, 2021 4:36 pmPerhaps although I’d hope that there is now more of an understanding from spectators than there was previously.
That said, if it is to say, it’s use needs to be reviewed and tweaked accordingly. Allow for the inaccuracy of the tech and you’ll immediately have a better solution.
There is a degree of error involved and if they had a method of analysis that understood this (fat lines that account for frame rate error and velicity of player error etc) and used the error in the analysis and had a possible outcome that the tech cannot advise, it reverts to "the attacking player has the advantage of doubt" that would be great. Those who dont fully understand error (majority of twitter for example) will still say that it depends on where the human puts the line. Basically, if its that close that you need a microscope to analyse it, take the default of "the attacker is not offside and has the benefit of the doubt". Most fans would support this approach if it was explained properly.
Re: FA Cup Final.
Most people believe the official line that letting it play out is reserved for offside. As indeed it is. As Ben Mee found out against Leeds, fouls on the goalkeeper are blown up immediately.Devils_Advocate wrote: ↑Mon May 17, 2021 3:59 pmIts not though as usual you're inventing your own narrative out of your own thought process and expecting everyone to base their arguments on your opinion.
The reason they want the phase of play to continue is because they can check all decisions after the event and this is the only way you will always get to make a decision between goal or offside.
This also happens with decisions not related to offside like handball where a ref will let a situation play out before blowing the whistle.
Im not arguing whether your wider point around the use of VAR for offside is right or wrong but what you stated to support it is simply not true.
Yes, they want the phase of play to continue so they can check decisions after the event, but the reason it's so important is the linesman can only get 50% of the close decisions right under VAR offside rules. Human eye can't judge calls like Chilwell's. Under the old rules where two players could be level it was possible for a linesman to judge the close offsides correctly 95% of the time. It wasn't so important to let it play out because it didn't affect so many incidents.
Don't assume that just because you have a fact, that everyone else is wrong. It's possible for more than one person to be right.
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Re: FA Cup Final.
What you said:dsr wrote: ↑Mon May 17, 2021 4:49 pmMost people believe the official line that letting it play out is reserved for offside. As indeed it is. As Ben Mee found out against Leeds, fouls on the goalkeeper are blown up immediately.
Yes, they want the phase of play to continue so they can check decisions after the event, but the reason it's so important is the linesman can only get 50% of the close decisions right under VAR offside rules. Human eye can't judge calls like Chilwell's. Under the old rules where two players could be level it was possible for a linesman to judge the close offsides correctly 95% of the time. It wasn't so important to let it play out because it didn't affect so many incidents.
Don't assume that just because you have a fact, that everyone else is wrong. It's possible for more than one person to be right.
The reason for the linesman leaving his flag down is because under the new VAR offside law, it is literally impossible for the lineman to know whether it's offside or not.
This is your opinion on what you think the reason is but this is not the reason that has even been given by anyone responsible for deciding and implementing these rules
It has however been stated that linesmen should keep their flags down whenever they are in doubt so as not to prevent a goal scoring opportunity when it can be checked after the event by VAR
One is fact and one is your opinion. Now you can call them liars or you can claim to understand the pysche of what drove these people to make that decision but what you originally stated is not true it is just your supposition.
I cant make it any simpler than that for you.