FA Cup Final.

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Zlatan
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Re: FA Cup Final.

Post by Zlatan » Sun May 16, 2021 10:49 am

arise_sir_charge wrote:
Sun May 16, 2021 10:41 am
Anyone who says it was clear with the naked eye in real time is talking absolute ********.
Then that was me too, in real time on TV I thought it was off, it was the VAR that made it look closer

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Re: FA Cup Final.

Post by arise_sir_charge » Sun May 16, 2021 10:57 am

You thought it was off.....not that it was clearly off.

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Re: FA Cup Final.

Post by eastanglianclaret » Sun May 16, 2021 12:12 pm

I'd always believed that VAR was introduced to deal with clear and obvious errors. I don't think even Colin or Pig Sham, let alone the most partisan Leicester supporter could honestly say that was a clear and obvious error. For me, the VAR needs to operate something similar to cricket's 'Umpire's call'. In a situation like that you just go with the ref's/lino's original decision.
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Re: FA Cup Final.

Post by Ashingtonclaret46 » Sun May 16, 2021 3:23 pm

arise_sir_charge wrote:
Sun May 16, 2021 10:41 am
Anyone who says it was clear with the naked eye in real time is talking absolute ********.
:lol: :lol: :lol: I didn't get my specs from Specsavers, they came from a superb optician and my eyesight is spot on, as is my judgement, as proved by VAR which is NEVER wrong!
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Re: FA Cup Final.

Post by dougcollins » Sun May 16, 2021 3:33 pm

Going back to Leicester's goal, I always thought if there was a handball incident by the attacking side in the build up -accidental or not - the handball was always given.

Has that been changed now?

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Re: FA Cup Final.

Post by Elizabeth » Sun May 16, 2021 5:34 pm

dougcollins wrote:
Sun May 16, 2021 3:33 pm
Going back to Leicester's goal, I always thought if there was a handball incident by the attacking side in the build up -accidental or not - the handball was always given.

Has that been changed now?
Does anyone know what’s going on anymore? I thought that it had to be the scorer or player assisting.
I’m sure it’s there to find out but most have lost the will to live on some of these VAR issues

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Re: FA Cup Final.

Post by KRBFC » Sun May 16, 2021 5:39 pm

dsr wrote:
Sat May 15, 2021 11:12 pm
I'm not even sure that the five "offsides" actually count as offside. As far as I know, the linesmen are still flagwaving on the basis that level is onside. When it's too close to call, it's onside. VAR of course is working on the basis that there is no such thing as level, which (in spite of what they try to tell us) is a change of the rule.

So if two players are level and a goal is not scored, it is onside. If two players are level and a goal is scored, the "level does not exist" rule comes into play and VAR has to make its best guess as to who is the fraction of the inch nearer the goal line.
I don't understand the whole leave the flag down rubbish, do they just make it up as they go along?
Vydra yesterday in the first half, wasn't flagged offside initially, 30 seconds later the ref put his flag up but he didn't let the move play out, we still had the ball near the edge of the box. The replay showed Vydra was close to onside (if I remember correctly).

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Re: FA Cup Final.

Post by KRBFC » Sun May 16, 2021 5:43 pm

Zlatan wrote:
Sun May 16, 2021 10:22 am
But it was Chelsea and I’m laughing my t!ts off at them :D :lol:
Forget laughing at Chelsea, this VAR issue is bigger than laughing at Chelsea.
For football in general it just has to go, my opinion doesn't change depending on who the awful decision benefits.
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Re: FA Cup Final.

Post by dsr » Sun May 16, 2021 6:16 pm

KRBFC wrote:
Sun May 16, 2021 5:39 pm
I don't understand the whole leave the flag down rubbish, do they just make it up as they go along?
Vydra yesterday in the first half, wasn't flagged offside initially, 30 seconds later the ref put his flag up but he didn't let the move play out, we still had the ball near the edge of the box. The replay showed Vydra was close to onside (if I remember correctly).
The reason for the linesman leaving his flag down is because under the new VAR offside law, it is literally impossible for the lineman to know whether it's offside or not. The human eye cannot judge whose shoelace is further forward. so having made it impossible for the linesman to give an accurate decision, they have to have an element of "wait and see" or else they will start to disallow loads of goals that would be legal even under the new law, as well as those that would have been legal under the old law but illegal under the new.

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Re: FA Cup Final.

Post by Devils_Advocate » Sun May 16, 2021 7:02 pm

dsr wrote:
Sun May 16, 2021 6:16 pm
The reason for the linesman leaving his flag down is because under the new VAR offside law, it is literally impossible for the lineman to know whether it's offside or not.
Thats not the reason for the linesman leaving down their flags.

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Re: FA Cup Final.

Post by dougcollins » Sun May 16, 2021 7:08 pm

KRBFC wrote:
Sun May 16, 2021 5:39 pm
I don't understand the whole leave the flag down rubbish, do they just make it up as they go along?
Vydra yesterday in the first half, wasn't flagged offside initially, 30 seconds later the ref put his flag up but he didn't let the move play out, we still had the ball near the edge of the box. The replay showed Vydra was close to onside (if I remember correctly).
They really made a mess of that, the incident wasn't yet played out - the whole point of not raising the flag is to play it out to a conclusion, then VAR can check.

But it's no wonder the linos are as confused as everybody else.

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Re: FA Cup Final.

Post by Zlatan » Sun May 16, 2021 8:56 pm

KRBFC wrote:
Sun May 16, 2021 5:43 pm
Forget laughing at Chelsea, this VAR issue is bigger than laughing at Chelsea.
For football in general it just has to go, my opinion doesn't change depending on who the awful decision benefits.
Calm down dear, it was a light hearted joke at the expense of Chelsea.

For the record though, VAR has to be kept for some types of incidents where the ref or assistant ref misses what happened; handball; foul play; etc. I do think a review of the process for offsides using VAR is needed. The accuracy for decisions isn’t there, the error parameters are not accurate enough. I proposed a method whereby the error levels would be integrated into the line used (fat line) and it they even touched at all it wouldn’t be offside, but I’m an IT guy with a degree in engineering - what would I know eh...

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Re: FA Cup Final.

Post by KRBFC » Sun May 16, 2021 8:57 pm

dsr wrote:
Sun May 16, 2021 6:16 pm
The reason for the linesman leaving his flag down is because under the new VAR offside law, it is literally impossible for the lineman to know whether it's offside or not. The human eye cannot judge whose shoelace is further forward. so having made it impossible for the linesman to give an accurate decision, they have to have an element of "wait and see" or else they will start to disallow loads of goals that would be legal even under the new law, as well as those that would have been legal under the old law but illegal under the new.
No but for the Vydra one yesterday, he raised his flag 20 seconds later when the attack was still ongoing. Completely defeated the whole purpose of leaving the flag down to let the attack play out for VAR to intervene later.

A possible explanation is he got told in his ear Vydra was definitely offside but surely Stockley Park aren't calling offsides as the games ongoing?

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Re: FA Cup Final.

Post by KRBFC » Sun May 16, 2021 8:59 pm

dougcollins wrote:
Sun May 16, 2021 7:08 pm
They really made a mess of that, the incident wasn't yet played out - the whole point of not raising the flag is to play it out to a conclusion, then VAR can check.

But it's no wonder the linos are as confused as everybody else.
Yeah we were still attacking, in good position and the flag goes up, was Vydra even offside? I can't remember what the replay showed, I just remember it was close.

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Re: FA Cup Final.

Post by dougcollins » Sun May 16, 2021 8:59 pm

KRBFC wrote:
Sun May 16, 2021 8:57 pm
No but for the Vydra one yesterday, he raised his flag 20 seconds later when the attack was still ongoing. Completely defeated the whole purpose of leaving the flag down to let the attack play out for VAR to intervene later.

A possible explanation is he got told in his ear Vydra was definitely offside but surely Stockley Park aren't calling offsides as the games ongoing?
Replay suggested Vydra was on.

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Re: FA Cup Final.

Post by Ashingtonclaret46 » Sun May 16, 2021 9:44 pm

dsr wrote:
Sun May 16, 2021 6:16 pm
The reason for the linesman leaving his flag down is because under the new VAR offside law, it is literally impossible for the lineman to know whether it's offside or not. The human eye cannot judge whose shoelace is further forward. so having made it impossible for the linesman to give an accurate decision, they have to have an element of "wait and see" or else they will start to disallow loads of goals that would be legal even under the new law, as well as those that would have been legal under the old law but illegal under the new.
What they are actually saying is that, a guy who has worked his way up the ladder as an official through years of hard work and who has given decisions that occur in every football match, is now unable to give a decision because there is too much money involved.
Yet, when it comes to the play-off semi-finals and finals they deem that the officials are fit to do the job without VAR interference.
It is no wonder fans are confused, the officials must also be confused because, apart from quite a number, there are quite a few officials who are in PL one week, perhaps Championship the next or even in the VAR room. The job has been complicated with VAR intervention and the changes to several Laws to accommodate the use of VAR.

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Re: FA Cup Final.

Post by dsr » Sun May 16, 2021 11:12 pm

Ashingtonclaret46 wrote:
Sun May 16, 2021 9:44 pm
What they are actually saying is that, a guy who has worked his way up the ladder as an official through years of hard work and who has given decisions that occur in every football match, is now unable to give a decision because there is too much money involved.
Yet, when it comes to the play-off semi-finals and finals they deem that the officials are fit to do the job without VAR interference.
It is no wonder fans are confused, the officials must also be confused because, apart from quite a number, there are quite a few officials who are in PL one week, perhaps Championship the next or even in the VAR room. The job has been complicated with VAR intervention and the changes to several Laws to accommodate the use of VAR.
Not really - it's not that they saying that this very experienced person can't make the decision, they are saying that no-one can make the decision. No human can decide which of two moving people was half an inch further forward at a given hundredth of a second. (VAR can't do it either, which is why Chilwell very likely was onside when the ball was kicked yesterday; he was an inch or two offside just after the ball was kicked, but he was sprinting forward and was almost certainly onside in the previous frame.)

Humans can decide with a reasonable probability of success whether a player is level or not. If the PL went back to the old rule of level being onside, and forgot this stupid fantasy that the law makers of 30 years ago meant "to the nearest millimeter" when they specifically said they diodn't mean that, then the linesman could give his decision as normal.

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Re: FA Cup Final.

Post by dsr » Sun May 16, 2021 11:14 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:
Sun May 16, 2021 7:02 pm
Thats not the reason for the linesman leaving down their flags.
Do you have an opinion on why the new instructions were given this season, or was that a "no-one is paying attention to me and I don't like being ignored" sort of comment?

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Re: FA Cup Final.

Post by duncandisorderly » Mon May 17, 2021 8:29 am

If they want to keep this silly offside ruling then, if the attacker is onside in the one frame immediately prior to the frame showing him to be offside, then he gets the benefit and is classed as onside.

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Re: FA Cup Final.

Post by Stevie Morgan » Mon May 17, 2021 12:37 pm

VAR is helping to take the game away from the players and supporters in the ground. As DSR says the millimeters they are trying to work to cannot be gauged by supporters or players. How can defenders judge their positions, attackers judge their runs, supporters follow the game properly? Its reducing enjoyment, understanding of the people who really count. It's becoming a different gamenfrom amateur and lower level pros. Is this what they wanted? On any sort of cost/benefit analysis it needs binning or wholesale change (stop the lines) for offsides at least.

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Re: FA Cup Final.

Post by Devils_Advocate » Mon May 17, 2021 2:32 pm

dsr wrote:
Sun May 16, 2021 11:14 pm
Do you have an opinion on why the new instructions were given this season, or was that a "no-one is paying attention to me and I don't like being ignored" sort of comment?
You stated "The reason for the linesman leaving his flag down is because under the new VAR offside law, it is literally impossible for the lineman to know whether it's offside or not"

Thats not true. The reason linesman are told to leave their flags down under the new VAR offside law is to allow the phase of play to play out where there is potential for a goal to be scored. Once that phase or opportunity ceases the linesman should raise their flag if thats what they thought was the correct decision

This is not specific to the really tight decisions but for any offside call unless it is really obvious and the linesman is in absolutely no doubt they should keep their flag down.

This could for example be when a player is a couple of feet offside and the reason for keeping the flag down is that you can go back and give offside after the goal has been scored but you cannot go back and give the attacking team the goal scoring opportunity if you raise your flag and it turns out to be onside.

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Re: FA Cup Final.

Post by Zlatan » Mon May 17, 2021 2:40 pm

Whatever happened to “Play to the whistle”...? If players just waited for the ref to blow and ignored the assistant ref with the flag this wouldn’t be a problem

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Re: FA Cup Final.

Post by dsr » Mon May 17, 2021 3:27 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 2:32 pm
You stated "The reason for the linesman leaving his flag down is because under the new VAR offside law, it is literally impossible for the lineman to know whether it's offside or not"

Thats not true. The reason linesman are told to leave their flags down under the new VAR offside law is to allow the phase of play to play out where there is potential for a goal to be scored. Once that phase or opportunity ceases the linesman should raise their flag if thats what they thought was the correct decision

This is not specific to the really tight decisions but for any offside call unless it is really obvious and the linesman is in absolutely no doubt they should keep their flag down.

This could for example be when a player is a couple of feet offside and the reason for keeping the flag down is that you can go back and give offside after the goal has been scored but you cannot go back and give the attacking team the goal scoring opportunity if you raise your flag and it turns out to be onside.
And you need to take it back one phase further, the reason they want that phase of play to continue is because it is impossible for the linesman to judge close offsides so he is bound to get half of them wrong.

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Re: FA Cup Final.

Post by Devils_Advocate » Mon May 17, 2021 3:29 pm

Zlatan wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 2:40 pm
Whatever happened to “Play to the whistle”...? If players just waited for the ref to blow and ignored the assistant ref with the flag this wouldn’t be a problem
Thats what happened originally but everyone moaned about that so they decided to tell the linesmen to keep their flags down.

If you all stopped blaming everything on the referees and accepted they do their best and make the decision they see fit then we would be in a lot better place and wouldn't of ended up with VAR in the first place

The grass is always green springs to mind

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Re: FA Cup Final.

Post by Devils_Advocate » Mon May 17, 2021 3:59 pm

dsr wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 3:27 pm
And you need to take it back one phase further, the reason they want that phase of play to continue is because it is impossible for the linesman to judge close offsides so he is bound to get half of them wrong.
Its not though as usual you're inventing your own narrative out of your own thought process and expecting everyone to base their arguments on your opinion.

The reason they want the phase of play to continue is because they can check all decisions after the event and this is the only way you will always get to make a decision between goal or offside.

This also happens with decisions not related to offside like handball where a ref will let a situation play out before blowing the whistle.

Im not arguing whether your wider point around the use of VAR for offside is right or wrong but what you stated to support it is simply not true.

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Re: FA Cup Final.

Post by arise_sir_charge » Mon May 17, 2021 4:14 pm

Well Ashington uses a better optician than the liner on the day as he didn’t think it was offside in real time. He was closer to it than anybody and thought he was onside.

Chilwell was at worst level but this bizarre desire to cancel perfectly good goals is getting in the way of common sense.

The simple reality is that the tech isn’t fit for purpose and as such the offside interpretation within VAR needs to take account for this with a suitable margin for error applied.

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Re: FA Cup Final.

Post by Zlatan » Mon May 17, 2021 4:26 pm

arise_sir_charge wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 4:14 pm
Well Ashington uses a better optician than the liner on the day as he didn’t think it was offside in real time. He was closer to it than anybody and thought he was onside.

Chilwell was at worst level but this bizarre desire to cancel perfectly good goals is getting in the way of common sense.

The simple reality is that the tech isn’t fit for purpose and as such the offside interpretation within VAR needs to take account for this with a suitable margin for error applied.
Pandora's box is well and truly open though. We cannot revert back to human error as VAR is here and the broadcasters will destroy any official that makes a mistake, along with the public who will feed off the vitriol on TV.

The only option moving forward is to improve the current system.

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Re: FA Cup Final.

Post by arise_sir_charge » Mon May 17, 2021 4:36 pm

Perhaps although I’d hope that there is now more of an understanding from spectators than there was previously.

That said, if it is to say, it’s use needs to be reviewed and tweaked accordingly. Allow for the inaccuracy of the tech and you’ll immediately have a better solution.
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Re: FA Cup Final.

Post by Zlatan » Mon May 17, 2021 4:42 pm

arise_sir_charge wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 4:36 pm
Perhaps although I’d hope that there is now more of an understanding from spectators than there was previously.

That said, if it is to say, it’s use needs to be reviewed and tweaked accordingly. Allow for the inaccuracy of the tech and you’ll immediately have a better solution.
its this - absolutely, but again fans need to understand.

There is a degree of error involved and if they had a method of analysis that understood this (fat lines that account for frame rate error and velicity of player error etc) and used the error in the analysis and had a possible outcome that the tech cannot advise, it reverts to "the attacking player has the advantage of doubt" that would be great. Those who dont fully understand error (majority of twitter for example) will still say that it depends on where the human puts the line. Basically, if its that close that you need a microscope to analyse it, take the default of "the attacker is not offside and has the benefit of the doubt". Most fans would support this approach if it was explained properly.

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Re: FA Cup Final.

Post by dsr » Mon May 17, 2021 4:49 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 3:59 pm
Its not though as usual you're inventing your own narrative out of your own thought process and expecting everyone to base their arguments on your opinion.

The reason they want the phase of play to continue is because they can check all decisions after the event and this is the only way you will always get to make a decision between goal or offside.

This also happens with decisions not related to offside like handball where a ref will let a situation play out before blowing the whistle.

Im not arguing whether your wider point around the use of VAR for offside is right or wrong but what you stated to support it is simply not true.
Most people believe the official line that letting it play out is reserved for offside. As indeed it is. As Ben Mee found out against Leeds, fouls on the goalkeeper are blown up immediately.

Yes, they want the phase of play to continue so they can check decisions after the event, but the reason it's so important is the linesman can only get 50% of the close decisions right under VAR offside rules. Human eye can't judge calls like Chilwell's. Under the old rules where two players could be level it was possible for a linesman to judge the close offsides correctly 95% of the time. It wasn't so important to let it play out because it didn't affect so many incidents.

Don't assume that just because you have a fact, that everyone else is wrong. It's possible for more than one person to be right.

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Re: FA Cup Final.

Post by Devils_Advocate » Mon May 17, 2021 5:35 pm

dsr wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 4:49 pm
Most people believe the official line that letting it play out is reserved for offside. As indeed it is. As Ben Mee found out against Leeds, fouls on the goalkeeper are blown up immediately.

Yes, they want the phase of play to continue so they can check decisions after the event, but the reason it's so important is the linesman can only get 50% of the close decisions right under VAR offside rules. Human eye can't judge calls like Chilwell's. Under the old rules where two players could be level it was possible for a linesman to judge the close offsides correctly 95% of the time. It wasn't so important to let it play out because it didn't affect so many incidents.

Don't assume that just because you have a fact, that everyone else is wrong. It's possible for more than one person to be right.
What you said:

The reason for the linesman leaving his flag down is because under the new VAR offside law, it is literally impossible for the lineman to know whether it's offside or not.

This is your opinion on what you think the reason is but this is not the reason that has even been given by anyone responsible for deciding and implementing these rules

It has however been stated that linesmen should keep their flags down whenever they are in doubt so as not to prevent a goal scoring opportunity when it can be checked after the event by VAR

One is fact and one is your opinion. Now you can call them liars or you can claim to understand the pysche of what drove these people to make that decision but what you originally stated is not true it is just your supposition.

I cant make it any simpler than that for you.

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