Matheus Pereira

[Chester Perry]

Haha it looks like the optimism of new ownership is wearing thin.

You never know, they could take on more debt in the short term to sign players. With the knowledge they have genuine options to improve revenue.

we don't know what the payment schedule is that they have agreed for the remaining £70m or so on the shares, I think that will come with a share flip, but it cannot be ruled out that they may have to take on greater debt to pay for it

[Newcastleclaret93]

we don't know what the payment schedule is that they have agreed for the remaining £70m or so on the shares, I think that will come with a share flip, but it cannot be ruled out that they may have to take on greater debt to pay for it

I very much suspect they will have to take on extra debt to give Dyche the much needed extra funds this summer.

[NewClaret]

Haha it looks like the optimism of new ownership is wearing thin.

You never know, they could take on more debt in the short term to sign players. With the knowledge they have genuine options to improve revenue.

I wasn’t joking. We should only allow outgoing transfer threads this summer

Seriously though, can you imagine the meltdown on here if we took on more debt for signings?

[NewClaret]

I do not know the actual sums this is a guess based on the very limited information available - it could be more, it could be less

I was certain that was your previous estimate but I’ve just searched your posts and turns out I’m talking rubbish. Surprising how many times you have quoted the figures “£28m” and £29m” about completely unrelated matters though

If you don’t know, I certainly don’t, so will rescind my cash growth point.

[Newcastleclaret93]

I wasn’t joking. We should only allow outgoing transfer threads this summer

Seriously though, can you imagine the meltdown on here if we took on more debt for signings?

A few people on here with a better grip of the finances will be able to give you more info on the potential of us taking on more debt.

My understanding (probably not accurate) is that unless they can increase commercial revenue significantly or get external investment then Further debt will most likely be on the cards in the near future to either improve the playing squad or pay of the rest of the money they Garlick.

[Jakubs Tash]

It's common practice for a business to borrow money to implement a business plan which will bear fruit in the future. Fans will need to make peace with that concept.

[Newcastleclaret93]

It's common practice for a business to borrow money to implement a business plan which will bear fruit in the future. Fans will need to make peace with that concept.

That’s a fair comment regarding it being common practise.

I would say that is fair that fans are allowed to be concerned about it. It happens far to regular, clubs take on debt to improve the clubs prospects, they fail miserably and the club is then in a difficult position (Derby most recent example).

It’s a good chance to hear both sides of the argument and discuss it.

[aggi]

that number is not from me, I have speculated some minimum numbers, but research and analysis I am currently doing for an article for the London Clarets magazine suggest they may be quite a way off reality - all we know about the Premier League central payment schedule is this:

- it is given in 3 periodic instalments
- the first two payments are based on the equal share for all clubs, I am presuming that this is comprised of equal share of the domestic TV rights pot, the equal share of the commercial income and the £43.18m of equal share of the international rights (that is probably in excess of £85m) it could theoretically include the minimum facility fee as well (circa £12.2m) but I suspect not
- 1st instalment towards end of July before season commences and is thought to be the much larger of the first two payments (likely to be in excess of £45m maybe significantly so)
- 2nd instalment at the end of the January transfer window, the remainder of the equal share payment
- 3rd instalment at the end of the season, merit payments for final place (from both the domestic and international rights pots) and facilities fees for number of TV appearances
- payments of parachute payments saved as the scheduled recipients have returned to the Premier League before the parachute payments expired are distributed equally to all 20 teams and paid on the schedule that parachute payments are made.

If this understanding is correct then it is possible that the club only generated a low amount of additional cash, or even lost some in the 2019/20 season

I mentioned £30m. That was based on the increased Deferred income of ~ £30m. There should probably be an adjustment of another few million to take into account that they're not holding as much season ticket money as normal.

Accruals and deferred income jumped from £24m to £56m so the £56m is the absolute maximum you'd be looking at for the instalment. However, given that figure was £27m in 2018 and £19m in 2017 it seems unlikely that if would have dropped so low. My (slightly) educated guess based on the accounts would be that the increase in cash due to the TV instalment would be ~ £30-35m. Saying that, I wouldn't be surprised if some of the remaining £20-25m didn't also relate to TV money.

[Chester Perry]

I mentioned £30m. That was based on the increased Deferred income of ~ £30m. There should probably be an adjustment of another few million to take into account that they're not holding as much season ticket money as normal.

Accruals and deferred income jumped from £24m to £56m so the £56m is the absolute maximum you'd be looking at for the instalment. However, given that figure was £27m in 2018 and £19m in 2017 it seems unlikely that if would have dropped so low. My (slightly) educated guess based on the accounts would be that the increase in cash due to the TV instalment would be ~ £30-35m. Saying that, I wouldn't be surprised if some of the remaining £20-25m didn't also relate to TV money.

I am still trying to get my head around what the actual numbers for the instalments could be and I am hoping you can help with this Aggi given your inciteful comment on the deferred income

I hope I have this right

Deferred Income =
- Season tickets/corporate hospitality pre-sold, (does this assume that direct debit holders have paid in full or just the sum paid to the point of the accounting period ending?)
- down payments on sponsorship (it is believed that LoveBet put down a lot upfront on their deal but have been struggling with subsequent payments this season which will likely see them replaced next season possibly with outstanding monies owed)
- down payments on advertising (the hoardings)
- down payments on non football catering events
- Premier League central payments that have not yet been used (this assumes that the total payments are averaged out somehow for accounting purposes - many clubs accounts last season did not include the restart and as a consequence there was some very divergent report on central payments though all the clubs referred to it by the number of games. Manchester United also do this with their TV income in their quarterly reports)

I am particularly keen to develop a greater understanding of the last element

[Hipper]

It's common practice for a business to borrow money to implement a business plan which will bear fruit in the future. Fans will need to make peace with that concept.

Professional football is not a common business though. I doubt we could borrow money in a normal way from a bank.

[Chester Perry]

Professional football is not a common business though. I doubt we could borrow money in a normal way from a bank.

You have to say borrowing has become very normal in professional football - it is just rarely from conventional banks (and history shows that you cannot blame them for that), usually it is from some source of Private Equity, it can be cheaper if it is from an owner (but that is not necessarily a good thing as it can encourage living beyond your means) but external sources are some way more expensive than conventional banks.

Prior to December last year, we could have factored TV income quite easily with a bank, we would have been able to borrow a few tens of millions from a bank for infrastructure development, that was to provide an income return if the business plan was accepted, the use of reserves to part fund such development would no doubt be looked upon favourably.

I suspect it is unlikely that would have amounted to half the reported borrowings that ALK have taken out. I do not think a conventional bank would have lent them the money for a leveraged takeover though. especially when also using the club's cash holding to assist with the funding, for all the intellectual the new owners have brought, it does not provide them with the necessary security.

[Jakubs Tash]

Professional football is not a common business though. I doubt we could borrow money in a normal way from a bank.

I never mentioned banks.

[aggi]

I am still trying to get my head around what the actual numbers for the instalments could be and I am hoping you can help with this Aggi given your inciteful comment on the deferred income

I hope I have this right

Deferred Income =
- Season tickets/corporate hospitality pre-sold, (does this assume that direct debit holders have paid in full or just the sum paid to the point of the accounting period ending?)
- down payments on sponsorship (it is believed that LoveBet put down a lot upfront on their deal but have been struggling with subsequent payments this season which will likely see them replaced next season possibly with outstanding monies owed)
- down payments on advertising (the hoardings)
- down payments on non football catering events
- Premier League central payments that have not yet been used (this assumes that the total payments are averaged out somehow for accounting purposes - many clubs accounts last season did not include the restart and as a consequence there was some very divergent report on central payments though all the clubs referred to it by the number of games. Manchester United also do this with their TV income in their quarterly reports)

I am particularly keen to develop a greater understanding of the last element

The £56m is Acrruals and Deferred Income.

Deferred Income is, as you say, anything where we've received the cash but haven't provided the service.

Accruals is where the club have received the service but haven't yet been invoiced for it. Things like utility bills and rent are the obvious. It is possible that some elements of bonuses may fall under this, although probably not.

Central payments are effectively "allocated" on a game by game basis in accounting terms. This is further complicated by not being able to account for the merit elements unless you are very certain you're going to get them.

For clubs that didn't change their financial year they had 15-20% of the matches after the year-end so the central payments would be averaged out and potentially the full merit payments wouldn't be recognised until the following year.

Accounts for bigger clubs give plenty of information, Man City for instance give quite a bit of detail on their revenue recognition on pages 26-27 https://www.mancity.com/annualreport202 ... report.pdf

[Chester Perry]

The £56m is Acrruals and Deferred Income.

Deferred Income is, as you say, anything where we've received the cash but haven't provided the service.

Accruals is where the club have received the service but haven't yet been invoiced for it. Things like utility bills and rent are the obvious. It is possible that some elements of bonuses may fall under this, although probably not.

Central payments are effectively "allocated" on a game by game basis in accounting terms. This is further complicated by not being able to account for the merit elements unless you are very certain you're going to get them.

For clubs that didn't change their financial year they had 15-20% of the matches after the year-end so the central payments would be averaged out and potentially the full merit payments wouldn't be recognised until the following year.

Accounts for bigger clubs give plenty of information, Man City for instance give quite a bit of detail on their revenue recognition on pages 26-27 https://www.mancity.com/annualreport202 ... report.pdf

That is great Aggi, many thanks - am I right in also assuming that this may include staged and conditional transfer payments both for both accruals and deferrals

[NewClaret]

I mentioned £30m. That was based on the increased Deferred income of ~ £30m. There should probably be an adjustment of another few million to take into account that they're not holding as much season ticket money as normal.

Accruals and deferred income jumped from £24m to £56m so the £56m is the absolute maximum you'd be looking at for the instalment. However, given that figure was £27m in 2018 and £19m in 2017 it seems unlikely that if would have dropped so low. My (slightly) educated guess based on the accounts would be that the increase in cash due to the TV instalment would be ~ £30-35m. Saying that, I wouldn't be surprised if some of the remaining £20-25m didn't also relate to TV money.

Thanks for clarifying! I knew I had read it somewhere and very reasoned explanation of why it probably sat in that ballpark.

[aggi]

That is great Aggi, many thanks - am I right in also assuming that this may include staged and conditional transfer payments both for both accruals and deferrals

Staged transfer payments will appear in trade creditors or trade debtors. They tend to be pretty clear as the accounts have a note saying how much of the total is due to football clubs (look at our latest accounts and you will see that they've come right down for instance).

Conditional may appear under trade creditors/debtors but that's when they're pretty much guaranteed. If there's a good chance they're going to happen then they will show in the notes as a contingent liability/asset (these don't impact revenue/profit). Otherwise they won't be shown at all. These will be updated each year.

[Chester Perry]

Staged transfer payments will appear in trade creditors or trade debtors. They tend to be pretty clear as the accounts have a note saying how much of the total is due to football clubs (look at our latest accounts and you will see that they've come right down for instance).

Conditional may appear under trade creditors/debtors but that's when they're pretty much guaranteed. If there's a good chance they're going to happen then they will show in the notes as a contingent liability/asset (these don't impact revenue/profit). Otherwise they won't be shown at all. These will be updated each year.

thanks

[ecc]

I still believe in Jay. Many don't and I respect their opinion but I still believe in the lad.

[TheFamilyCat]

Available for £15m according to BBC gossip page this morning (from Teamtalk, who also link us with Neco Williams on loan).

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/57371050

[NewClaret]

Available for £15m according to BBC gossip page this morning (from Teamtalk, who also link us with Neco Williams on loan).

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/57371050

If Villa get Buendia and Pereira!!!!!

Can’t believe for a moment they’ll sell for £15m but we should be all over this one - 11 goals and 6 assists from RW or whatever it was is just what we need.

[taio]

£15m would be a steal. I was under the impression his likely destination is Leeds.

[RVclaret]

Would love him but no chance unfortunately.

[bobinho]

It’s already going to be slightly lower due to Brady, Dunne, Gibson leaving.

Could see stephens, Jay Rod and Barnes on the way to get more game time.

The last three you mention will have to want to drop a division to keep playing. No PL club coming in for any of them. Depending on their current contracts, they may wish to ride it out here.

[bobinho]

Available for £15m according to BBC gossip page this morning (from Teamtalk, who also link us with Neco Williams on loan).

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/57371050

Mmmm.... if anyone understands how we “use” the loan market, can they explain it to ‘team talk’ please.

Personally, I don’t see a reversal of policy in that department coming anytime soon.

[FeedTheArf]

Available for £15m according to BBC gossip page this morning (from Teamtalk, who also link us with Neco Williams on loan).

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/57371050

Doesn’t Williams’ brother play for our under 23s? Could be something in that

[BenWickes]

Doesn’t Williams’ brother play for our under 23s? Could be something in that

Keelan Williams is with the U18's according to the official site.

[gandhisflipflop]

I started a thread about pereira a few months ago raving about him. If there is any remote possibility we should be all out for him. He is class.

[FeedTheArf]

Keelan Williams is with the U18's according to the official site.

That’s the one. Remember reading an interview where he talked about his brother being at Liverpool.