Should Laurel Hubbard be allowed to compete in the NZ womens’s weight lifting team ? Bone and muscle density are key.

No.

That is all…

Absolutely not. Even though it was naturally obtain she has been having additional testosterone for years. That can’t be fair anymore than someone drugging themselves for years.

I have a lot of understanding for trans people. But this ends up being very unfair on another community… non trans women. So that needs to be considered too.

As the number of trans people grows… which to me is a good thing… we really don’t want all female sport to be dominated by trans athletes do we?

The only way this is fixed is by opening a new trans group where they compete against each other. The problem is, where does it end? We are reaching a bit of a crossroads in sporting wokeness where the fear of offending overrides common sense.

Its a no from me, however this could be a good thing.

If she wins gold by a very large margin then maybe it will finally make people like the IOC sit up and start to look at long term resolutions for this.
They've managed to ignore it for a while because it hadn't reached Olympic level.

No. All the women should just withdraw. It's pointless when they know they can't win.

South Park predicted this.

https://youtu.be/URz-RYEOaig

Sad day for women's sport.

It's a no from me! As someone said above, other countries should pull their female competitors. Where does this end?

Absolutely NO.
In the same way Oscar Pistorius shouldn’t have been allowed to compete against able bodied athletes. No need to train calves, less body for heart to pump blood(oxygen) around, fewer injuries to calves and feet, blades designed to propel him forward.

I am sure the transgender activists have got this point wrong. "Gender" as in the 150+ semi-official genders nowadays is a social construct, not based on the physical body. But the reason for having women's sport is entirely based on the physical body - people born with Y chromosomes have a significant competitive advantage.

They have women's sport because otherwise people born without a Y chromosome could not play top level sport. It is nothing to do with social attitudes to male and female.

Come on folks, this sort of attitude could prejudice my entry in the Tour de France; I've been feeling confident of success since my motorbike began to identify as a bicycle.

It is wrong.

As a teenage lad all those years ago I was a county standard Butterfly swimmer and I was posting times that would have qualified me for the women’s Olympic team if I became a trans athlete (of course not an issue 35 years ago). How many mediocre male athletes are going to be “persuaded” to compete as a trans person in order to win?

AfloatinClaret wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 21, 2021 10:35 am

Come on folks, this sort of attitude could prejudice my entry in the Tour de France; I've been feeling confident of success since my motorbike began to identify as a bicycle.

Don't they already have a moped bike that races in track cycling?

In answer to the OP, no.

Should the same rules apply across all sports? I'm not so sure. There of course a lot of sports where strength is a significant performance factor and for these I would say the same as this case.

There are a number of sports where I don't believe physical strength makes any difference; where does the decision lie, with the IOC or the sports' governing bodies?

Curious that at 43 he's suddenly become an Olympic class athlete. What about the poor woman who should have been competing for NZ, having dedicated their life to the sport, to now miss out to a male competitor?

You can dress this up as progressive and inclusive but it's males writing rules for the benefit of other males to the detriment of females. It's a tale as old as time itself.

wait until you see what shoe technology is doing to middle and long distance running - if an athlete is not sponsored by the right producer then they are beaten before they even start the race, no matter how good they are when everyone is wearing conventional shoes.

I have spent a lifetime being absolutely engrossed by the Olympics, this time around I am considering not watching them, the same as I haven't been watching the Euros

How demoralising for all those women who were happy to compete on a level playing field fair n square.

May as well pack in....

No way

Spijed wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 21, 2021 11:02 am

Don't they already have a moped bike that races in track cycling?

It always gets beat though. Goes out to fast and fades badly, I think.

Perhaps if we could persuade Harry Kane to trans-gender our girls would have an excellent chance in the Women’s World Cup??

minnieclaret wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 21, 2021 12:07 pm

It always gets beat though. Goes out to fast and fades badly, I think.

that is a tempo setter for the Kerin a hugely popular and exciting racing format - there is a whole gambling industry built on it in Japan

in cycling there has been concerns about electric powered bikes for quite a number of years now and there are x-ray tests in all the big races to check for motors built into frames - a few have been caught in the last decade

No. It's completely wrong and unfair.

Spijed wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 21, 2021 11:02 am

Don't they already have a moped bike that races in track cycling?

Yeah, but those things are the Robbie Brady/JBGs of the cycling world; they always pull up before the end.

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 21, 2021 9:18 am

Its a no from me, however this could be a good thing.

If she wins gold by a very large margin then maybe it will finally make people like the IOC sit up and start to look at long term resolutions for this.
They've managed to ignore it for a while because it hadn't reached Olympic level.

She’s currently ranked 42nd in her weight class.

If you want a direct impact example, look into the US collegiate system and the impact transgender athletes are having.

No.

No.

Thankfully there's a good bit more to being a woman than simply possessing a minge.

No, he's not a woman.

ten bellies wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 21, 2021 1:13 pm

No, he's not a woman.

She is. Frankly, your thoughts on sporting participation and recognising people’s right to chose their gender, especially when they’ve transitioned should be separated.

Chester Perry wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 21, 2021 12:18 pm

that is a tempo setter for the Kerin a hugely popular and exciting racing format - there is a whole gambling industry built on it in Japan

in cycling there has been concerns about electric powered bikes for quite a number of years now and there are x-ray tests in all the big races to check for motors built into frames - a few have been caught in the last decade

Genetic doping is alleged to be ‘rife’. You can’t test for it, unless you’ve got a DNA sample from pre performance days.

If this is going be the case, then let’s scrap all gender in sport and see what happens everyone has to qualify evenly.

That’s said, political correctness will state that 50% of the competitors have to be a different gender, then the best althetes won’t qualify anyway.

Claret_tinted wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 21, 2021 1:24 pm

She is. Frankly, your thoughts on sporting participation and recognising people’s right to chose their gender, especially when they’ve transitioned should be separated.

You're wrong, but fashionable.

ten bellies wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 21, 2021 1:32 pm

You're wrong, but fashionable.

No I am respectful. Once upon a time being gay was thought upon as being deviant and is now, rightly, widely accepted in developed nations. To transition genders is and should be thought of in the same light.

You cannot deny the fact that she is now recognised legally and rightfully as a women. To do otherwise is rude, to do so on a public forum is dangerous.

You can then apply this to a sporting context how you choose to. That’s where your opinion is valid.

claptrappers_union wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 21, 2021 1:26 pm

If this is going be the case, then let’s scrap all gender in sport and see what happens everyone has to qualify evenly.

That’s said, political correctness will state that 50% of the competitors have to be a different gender, then the best althetes won’t qualify anyway.

But how do you work out what 50% of 150+ genders are?

She may mentally be a woman, but without surgery and other medical intervention she remains in a male body.

Even if all the usual male "equipment" is removed plus facial hair follicles, Adam's apple etc. (and some female bits and pieces added), the individual's body has grown as a male and retains all the muscular strength and bone structure of a man.

Therefore as an athlete he/she cannot be considered female and it should not even be contemplated that this individual can compete against natural women, especially in an event that demands physical strength.

Claret_tinted wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:09 pm

No I am respectful. Once upon a time being gay was thought upon as being deviant and is now, rightly, widely accepted in developed nations. To transition genders is and should be thought of in the same light.

You cannot deny the fact that she is now recognised legally and rightfully as a women. To do otherwise is rude, to do so on a public forum is dangerous.

You can then apply this to a sporting context how you choose to. That’s where your opinion is valid.

I have no problem with anyone being who they want to be. I do have a problem with them redefining gender, particularly in relation to sporting endeavour.

I've no problem with people being free to choose how they themselves identify, however, people cannot change their biological sex. A biological man cannot become a biological woman and vice versa.

ten bellies wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 21, 2021 4:26 pm

I have no problem with anyone being who they want to be. I do have a problem with them redefining gender, particularly in relation to sporting endeavour.

You referred to a legally recognised women as a male, and did so purposefully to be discriminatory. You are fully aware by reading the news, this thread, that that was the case.

Trying to roll back your comment with a later comment doesn’t excuse your ignorance and rudeness.

The two issues are absolutely separate.

Claret_tinted wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 21, 2021 5:43 pm

You referred to a legally recognised women as a male, and did so purposefully to be discriminatory. You are fully aware by reading the news, this thread, that that was the case.

Trying to roll back your comment with a later comment doesn’t excuse your ignorance and rudeness.

The two issues are absolutely separate.

I was not trying to roll back my initial comment. Like I said, the redefining of gender is the problem.

Claret_tinted wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 21, 2021 5:43 pm

You referred to a legally recognised women as a male..

The power lifter is male. That won’t change, regardless of names, dress or gender. I’d call them whatever they want to be called out of politeness but they’re male.

https://www.outsports.com/platform/amp/ ... fallon-fox

This is not an issue I have spent a lot of time thinking about in my life but I found this to be a really informative, interesting and empathetic article.

Whatever your views on trans participation in elite sport, why not challenge yourself by reading it?

Duffer_ wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:09 pm

https://www.outsports.com/platform/amp/ ... fallon-fox

This is not an issue I have spent a lot of time thinking about in my life but I found this to be a really informative, interesting and empathetic article.

Whatever your views on trans participation in elite sport, why not challenge yourself by reading it?

thanks for thatDuffer_ - read it and I still think that the specific instance this thread is about is wrong, and my example of Butterfly swimmer further up the thread is another example where a trans woman would have a massive advantage over a cis woman mainly due to the stroke mechanics and the shoulder width. There will be other sports too. In the case of MMA where fighters are matched in the first place by weight etc, it will be less of an issue, as that article suggests.

NottsClaret wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:02 pm

The power lifter is male. That won’t change, regardless of names, dress or gender. I’d call them whatever they want to be called out of politeness but they’re male.

You couldn’t be more wrong if you tried. She, SHE, is a legally recognised women.

The ethics of sporting competition is open for debate but not her gender. ‘They’, as you refer, are people, humans, who have undergone a transition to change gender and therefore the right to choose their gender and be referred by that gender. You’re legally bound to adhere to that.

By all means being valid, rationale, and informed debate about transgender athletes competing in competition, but don’t belittle and demean yourself with playground taunts.

ten bellies wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 21, 2021 5:53 pm

I was not trying to roll back my initial comment. Like I said, the redefining of gender is the problem.

No, you were inflammatory. Your remark was childish and ill informed.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

^^^^^^^^^^

It will be very interesting to see what the sponsors do

Zlatan wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:20 pm

thanks for thatDuffer_ - read it and I still think that the specific instance this thread is about is wrong, and my example of Butterfly swimmer further up the thread is another example where a trans woman would have a massive advantage over a cis woman mainly due to the stroke mechanics and the shoulder width. There will be other sports too. In the case of MMA where fighters are matched in the first place by weight etc, it will be less of an issue, as that article suggests.

Thanks for taking the time to read it Zlatan. I'm not trying to change anyone's views on trans participation in elite sports, as I am still forming my own. Interesting point about the weight divisions in MMA, which are also in play in weightlifting.

Claret_tinted wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:09 pm

No I am respectful. Once upon a time being gay was thought upon as being deviant and is now, rightly, widely accepted in developed nations. To transition genders is and should be thought of in the same light.

You cannot deny the fact that she is now recognised legally and rightfully as a women. To do otherwise is rude, to do so on a public forum is dangerous.

You can then apply this to a sporting context how you choose to. That’s where your opinion is valid.

That's true, but anyone with any sporting nous, shouldn't have to be told that it offers an unfair advantage. All any sports fans can ask for is a level playing field.
Secondly, if she was a transition boxer, would you really allow her to enter the ring with someone born female. It would be criminal.
I have full sympathy, but there is no way anyone in this situation can compete fairly. It becomes a mockery, and I along with many others, would just switch off.

Chester Perry wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 21, 2021 12:18 pm

that is a tempo setter for the Kerin a hugely popular and exciting racing format - there is a whole gambling industry built on it in Japan

in cycling there has been concerns about electric powered bikes for quite a number of years now and there are x-ray tests in all the big races to check for motors built into frames - a few have been caught in the last decade

Gotcha!!

Claret_tinted wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:26 pm

You couldn’t be more wrong if you tried. She, SHE, is a legally recognised women.

The ethics of sporting competition is open for debate but not her gender. ‘They’, as you refer, are people, humans, who have undergone a transition to change gender and therefore the right to choose their gender and be referred by that gender. You’re legally bound to adhere to that.

By all means being valid, rationale, and informed debate about transgender athletes competing in competition, but don’t belittle and demean yourself with playground taunts.

Nah, she is male. You're mixing up gender with biological sex. It's a pretty basic mistake.

"You’re legally bound to adhere to that."

Ha ha.. that's just nonsense. If a male wants to be called Katy, I'll call them Katy. I'll call them 'she' if that's what they want. I'm very much in the live and let live camp. But if all this make believe begins to impinge on women's hard earned rights and opportunities, then I'll call it out for the nonsense it is.

Well said, Notts.