Coach travel to away games - face masks

[fidelcastro]

I'm sure you're correct on that point. But your original point was you haven't see any evidence they work. There's loads out there and I suspect it's far more robust and from more reliable sources than the evidence you've found saying they don't work.

So, if they work and it's all the fault of those who don't wear them, what's the point in continuing when cases are rising regardless?

Out of interest, did you ever advocate mask wearing to combat seasonal flu?

[Leisure]

So, if they work and it's all the fault of those who don't wear them, what's the point in continuing when cases are rising regardless?

Out of interest, did you ever advocate mask wearing to combat seasonal flu?

Please can we leave the merits of wearing or not wearing masks in general out of this and just focus on the original post of traveling on coaches to away games!

[taio]

So, if they work and it's all the fault of those who don't wear them, what's the point in continuing when cases are rising regardless?

Out of interest, did you ever advocate mask wearing to combat seasonal flu?

Because fewer people will get Covid.

No I didn't advocate wearing a mask for flu.

I won't be wearing a mask from tomorrow, perhaps apart from in exceptional circumstances.

That doesn't mean I don't think they have reduced community transmission and I believe the stronger evidence supports that view.

[fidelcastro]

Please can we leave the merits of wearing or not wearing masks in general out of this and just focus on the original post of traveling on coaches to away games!

Indeed. Perhaps we should ask the SAGE scientists what they would do. You know? The ones who preach about mask wearing to all of us, and are then pictured in a crowded royal box at Wimbledon... without a mask!

[fidelcastro]

Because fewer people will get Covid.

No I didn't advocate wearing a mask for flu.

I won't be wearing a mask from tomorrow, perhaps apart from in exceptional circumstances.

That doesn't mean I don't think they have reduced community transmission and I believe the stronger evidence supports that view.

So, you believe they work, but you won't be doing it from tomorrow?

Makes perfect sense!

[taio]

So, you believe they work, but you won't be doing it from tomorrow?

Makes perfect sense!

Makes lots of sense. I've been double vaccinated, had covid and I will continue with regular hand hygiene. It's about risk management and balancing the risks. It's entirely reasonable to believe that masks reduce transmission but decide not to wear one from tomorrow in accordance with the government's rules.

[Billyblah]

The idea of large numbers of people coughing up their germs in a confined space is quite horrifying. Buses, coaches aeroplanes...even stadiums..we are some way off being rid of this pandemic.

[fidelcastro]

Makes lots of sense. I've been double vaccinated, had covid and I will continue with regular hand hygiene. It's about risk management and balancing the risks. It's entirely reasonable to believe that masks reduce transmission but decide not to wear one from tomorrow in accordance with the government's rules.

I've been double vaccinated too, which is why I won't be wearing a mask from tomorrow either, despite my employer telling me that we're "encouraged" to continue wearing one.

As always, the guidance is unclear, and is no doubt going to lead to confrontations and arguments, but if you were that certain that masks are so effective, I'm pretty sure you'd continue to wear one, whatever our useless prime minister has decided.

[taio]

I've been double vaccinated too, which is why I won't be wearing a mask from tomorrow either, despite my employer telling me that we're "encouraged" to continue wearing one.

As always, the guidance is unclear, and is no doubt going to lead to confrontations and arguments, but if you were that certain that masks are so effective, I'm pretty sure you'd continue to wear one, whatever our useless prime minister has decided.

I am pretty sure mask wearing reduces the risks and again evidence supports that view. I feel very low risk so from tomorrow I'd rather live my life without one. If I felt my risk was higher I would still wear one because a mask can make a difference. I probably wouldn't wear one on an away team coach unless I was forced to.

[ksrclaret]

The idea of large numbers of people coughing up their germs in a confined space is quite horrifying. Buses, coaches aeroplanes...even stadiums..we are some way off being rid of this pandemic.

It's a real luxury to be horrified by it. Plenty of people have had no choice but to get on with it. I have been in enclosed spaces with 20-30 young people every working day. Lots of others in jobs where they've had no choice.

So whilst there are people who are horrified by mixing again, it's just another day for plenty more. For me it's about time we started have some fun again rather than working and then sitting at home.

[Lord_Bob]

Even if you are double vaccinated, you can still catch and transmit the virus. You probably won't die, but if you don't mask you give the virus a chance to spread and mutate again, mutate into a form that the vaccines no longer work against.

This delta variant is nasty and could mutate into something much worse if we don't stop the spread. Wearing a mask indoors in any situation should be mandatory until we have stopped the spread of this thing. At this time, I would not be getting on any coach that doesn't require masks.

[Leisure]

At this time, I would not be getting on any coach that doesn't require masks.

Many thanks, Bob. At least that is in reply to my original question. Cheers.

[taio]

Many thanks, Bob. At least that is in reply to my original question. Cheers.

Can you not offer one coach where mask wearing is compulsory and the other isn't then all bases are covered?

[ClaretAndJew]

It was shirts v skins in my day.

[fidelcastro]

I am pretty sure mask wearing reduces the risks and again evidence supports that view. I feel very low risk so from tomorrow I'd rather live my life without one. If I felt my risk was higher I would still wear one because a mask can make a difference. I probably wouldn't wear one on an away team coach unless I was forced to.

I thought masks were about protecting other people, not you?

[taio]

I thought masks were about protecting other people, not you?

Both. That's why health and care professionals wear them to protect both their patients and themselves. If someone wants to be protected from those who don't wear a mask on an away coach, for example, they should get vaccinated, wear a mask or not go on the coach.

[jrgbfc]

If people want to go to football I think they're going to have to accept there's a risk of catching covid, that's just the way things are.

[fidelcastro]

Both. That's why health and care professionals wear them to protect both their patients and themselves.

Okay, let me get this straight... you feel safe enough to not wear a mask even though you claim it protects you. You also claimed it protects others, but you're not bothered about that because you're now removing it. Your justification for this is the vaccine, which every scientist has conceded doesn't stop you catching it or passing it on?

Is that right?

Pure Monty Python.

[taio]

Okay, let me get this straight... you feel safe enough to not wear a mask even though you claim it protects you. You also claimed it protects others, but you're not bothered about that because you're now removing it. Your justification for this is the vaccine, which every scientist has conceded doesn't stop you catching it or passing it on?

Is that right?

Yes I feel safe enough not to wear a mask.

Masks reduce the risk for both the wearer and other people.

As above those who want to be protected from non-mask wearers ought to ensure they are vaccinated, wear a mask or socially distance.

No, my justification is certainly not solely down to vaccination and I'm well aware it is not 100% effective.

My justification is about my risk appetite and the same is true of those who want to wear a mask - people have choices.

It's not illogical at all to say I won't normally be wearing a mask from tomorrow, which is in accordance with government rules, but at the same time say masks reduce people's risks.

[Jakubclaret]

Not forever? Okay, for how long then?

However long it takes, I can suffer some slight short term inconvenience if it prevents people dying, you are coming across with a really selfish I’m alright jack attitude!

[fidelcastro]

However long it takes, I can suffer some slight short term inconvenience if it prevents people dying, you are coming across with a really selfish I’m alright jack attitude!

I'd love to know how many people you think you're stopping from dying when the most vulnerable are as safe now as they're ever going to be!

[Jakubclaret]

I'd love to know how many people you think you're stopping from dying when the most vulnerable are as safe now as they're ever going to be!

They are only safe because of the measures that have been implemented in place mainly being vaccinated, I’ll put my mortgage on a spike happening post tomorrow when things start easing again, why is it such a big deal to you if you have to wear a mask? If you are medically exempt you don’t need to wear 1, if you want to wear 1 wear 1 if you don’t don’t, i can guarantee as from tomorrow millions of people will still be wearing them in certain circumstances despite no legal obligation.

[fatboy47]

I've only used coaches occasionally but I'm done with masks, which as far as I can see are now only useful to protect the loons who have stuck 2 fingers up to the vaccine.
Johnson seems to be washing his hands of the whole shebang now...and for once I tend to agree with him.

The slightly dubious posts from purportedly ITK folk re the state of play in hospitals just don't reflect the info I get from relations in the NHS. Not even close.

The most relevant info, to me, simply isn't fully available...and that's some very clear stats on how many current serious cases involve fully jabbed citizens.

[Leisure]

I'd love to know how many people you think you're stopping from dying when the most vulnerable are as safe now as they're ever going to be!

Thanks for hijacking a thread about coach travel!

[fidelcastro]

They are only safe because of the measures that have been implemented in place mainly being vaccinated, I’ll put my mortgage on a spike happening post tomorrow when things start easing again, why is it such a big deal to you if you have to wear a mask? If you are medically exempt you don’t need to wear 1, if you want to wear 1 wear 1 if you don’t don’t, i can guarantee as from tomorrow millions of people will still be wearing them in certain circumstances despite no legal obligation.

So, you've no evidence that your actually saving anyone from dying, have you?

As someone who works in the customer service industry, and has had to wear a mask up until now, I can't wait for it to come off because I don't believe it does any good. As for other people, I'm honestly not exaggerating when I say that half of our customers weren't bothering with masks when they were mandatory, so there's no chance of them doing it voluntarily!

[fidelcastro]

Thanks for hijacking a thread about coach travel!

I asked a simple question, that's all.

FWIW, I would have no issue with travelling on a coach unmasked and with fellow unmasked Clarets.

[wilks_bfc]

Usually make our own way to any away games we go to, but if we were to go via coach would probably continue wearing a mask in confined spaces with other people

[Jakubclaret]

So, you've no evidence that your actually saving anyone from dying, have you?

As someone who works in the customer service industry, and has had to wear a mask up until now, I can't wait for it to come off because I don't believe it does any good. As for other people, I'm honestly not exaggerating when I say that half of our customers weren't bothering with masks when they were mandatory, so there's no chance of them doing it voluntarily!

You are disagreeing with expert scientists specialising in viruses who have all pretty much agreed masks help prevent transmission & you know better working in customer services, I don’t know what to say I really don’t, good evening.

[gandhisflipflop]

You are disagreeing with expert scientists specialising in viruses who have all pretty much agreed masks help prevent transmission & you know better working in customer services, I don’t know what to say I really don’t, good evening.

They will only work if worn correctly, washed after each use or disposed of. How many are actually doing that? I know for a fact that people walk around with their noses hanging out of the mask, or masks underneath their chins, then they are touching their mask every 2 minutes. So in theory, the scientists are correct but in practice it is ineffective for these reasons.

[fidelcastro]

You are disagreeing with expert scientists specialising in viruses who have all pretty much agreed masks help prevent transmission & you know better working in customer services, I don’t know what to say I really don’t, good evening.

They might help prevent transmission if everyone was doing it, but since they weren't when it was supposed to be the law, I don't know what to say, I really don't.

Good evening to you too.

[fidelcastro]

They will only work if worn correctly, washed after each use or disposed of. How many are actually doing that? I know for a fact that people walk around with their noses hanging out of the mask, or masks underneath their chins, then they are touching their mask every 2 minutes. So in theory, the scientists are correct but in practice it is ineffective for these reasons.

Exactly, and don't forget it would have to be everyone wearing the same kind of effective masks, not the ones that actually state on the packaging that they aren't to be used as PPE!

[Jakubclaret]

They will only work if worn correctly, washed after each use or disposed of. How many are actually doing that? I know for a fact that people walk around with their noses hanging out of the mask, or masks underneath their chins, then they are touching their mask every 2 minutes. So in theory, the scientists are correct but in practice it is ineffective for these reasons.

People need to wear the masks correctly of course, it’s only the same as any safety mechanism failing. if you don’t fasten your seat belt correctly it doesn’t click in you might fly through the windscreen instead of nutting the dash on impact collision, that applies to any safety item you need to use/wear correctly, it’s not unique to mask wearing.

[taio]

They might help prevent transmission if everyone was doing it, but since they weren't when it was supposed to be the law, I don't know what to say, I really don't.

Good evening to you too.

If you can accept that masks would prevent transmission if everyone was wearing them, it's very odd that you cannot see that some people wearing masks will have some preventable effect on transmission. It's not an all or nothing thing. Bizarre.

[superdimitri]

If more than about 20% are not wearing masks then there’s really no point in anyone wearing them. It’s why ‘personal choice’ on this issue doesn’t work.

Well said Martin. After all this time I find it outstanding that people still don't get this. A mask is to protect others from you. That's why it shouldn't be a personal choice at all.

[Rileybobs]

Well said Martin. After all this time I find it outstanding that people still don't get this. A mask is to protect others from you. That's why it shouldn't be a personal choice at all.

But in this context people have a personal choice whether to travel on a coach with others who won’t be wearing masks. I can see the argument for compulsory mask wearing on public transport as that’s completely different.

[fidelcastro]

If you can accept that masks would prevent transmission if everyone was wearing them, it's very odd that you cannot see that some people wearing masks will have some preventable effect on transmission. It's not an all or nothing thing. Bizarre.

I said they might, but as we've not even come close to everyone wearing masks, it would be impossible to know.

[FeedTheArf]

I think all you can do is mirror the guidance for bus/coach travel at the time of the match.

If you try and make them compulsory when it isn’t the ‘norm’ then you’re going to get a few brave lads after a few beers refusing and it puts the organisers in a difficult position in trying to enforce it.

Everyone booking on the coach knows what the guidance is at the time. If you make it clear that you’ll be following that guidance when booking everyone knows where they stand. If that makes you uncomfortable then travel by others means.

[taio]

Well said Martin. After all this time I find it outstanding that people still don't get this. A mask is to protect others from you. That's why it shouldn't be a personal choice at all.

Nurses and doctors wear masks to protect themselves as well as patients. The same surgical mask that so many of the public wear to protect themselves and others.

[fidelcastro]

Well said Martin. After all this time I find it outstanding that people still don't get this. A mask is to protect others from you. That's why it shouldn't be a personal choice at all.

Is it fair that someone like me who has been double vaccinated should have to wear a mask and protect some selfish anti vax conspiracy theorist?

[taio]

I said they might, but as we've not even come close to everyone wearing masks, it would be impossible to know.

It's not impossible to know because strong research evidence and highly specialised organisations and individuals are sure masks reduce transmission and not everyone has to wear one to have a positive impact because that would be illogical.

[fidelcastro]

Nurses and doctors wear masks to protect themselves as well as patients. The same surgical mask that so many of the public wear to protect themselves and others.

It’s not the same mask and when a surgeon puts it on, they don't touch it again without changing it. The way I've seen some folk wearing masks this last year has been laughable.

[fidelcastro]

It's not impossible to know because strong research evidence and highly specialised organisations and individuals are sure masks reduce transmission and not everyone has to wear one to have a positive impact because that would be illogical.

By your logic then, cases should have fallen, not risen.

[taio]

It’s not the same mask and when a surgeon puts it on, they don't touch it again without changing it. The way I've seen some folk wearing masks this last year has been laughable.

Yes it is the same mask - a standard surgical mask worn by many of the public. FFP3 masks in the NHS are only worn for aerosol generating procedures.

[kentonclaret]

The majority of people don't even realise that this will be a short summer free for all until case numbers start to soar and restrictions have to be imposed again to save the NHS being overwhelmed with "Winter Pressures" and the flu season looming.

Boris said have a "Merry Little Xmas" but should also have added "Have a Jolly Little Summer".

The more that people disregard even the most basic of preventative measures the shorter the summer will be for all of us.

[taio]

By your logic then, cases should have fallen, not risen.

No. By my logic if no one wore a mask transmission would be even higher and rising quicker.

[fidelcastro]

Yes it is the same mask - a standard surgical mask worn by many of the public. FFP3 masks in the NHS are only worn for aerosol generating procedures.

Is this the one that states on the packaging that it isn't to be used as PPE? That's the turquoise coloured one that most people tend to wear (up until tomorrow).

[taio]

Is this the one that states on the packaging that it isn't to be used as PPE? That's the turquoise coloured one that most people tend to wear (up until tomorrow).

No. It's a surgical mask that can be worn for PPE that most people wear.

[Jakubclaret]

It's not impossible to know because strong research evidence and highly specialised organisations and individuals are sure masks reduce transmission and not everyone has to wear one to have a positive impact because that would be illogical.

We’ve gone as near as damn it going into any supermarket ect nowadays everyone’s wearing a mask & the 1s that aren’t have medically exempt neck fabric bracelets with a card on, odd 1s don’t when challenged are asked to leave, upon entry signs are there no face covering no entry, plenty of people end up trudging back to the car having forgotten them or need to go back home to get 1, I’ve done it a few times forgot my mask you do get challenged.