Two wingers

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1914tyrone
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Two wingers

Post by 1914tyrone » Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:42 pm

An awful lot of fretting, including myself. But when I have read up on the squad from just two years ago, we are just two wingers down. Lennon and now Brady both yet to be replaced.
The rest of the squad has had pretty much like for like replacements in my opinion, so it's not as bad as we think lol.
Two more would be great from an attacking point I do think we need them. 🤞🤞

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Re: Two wingers

Post by Iloveyoubrady » Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:45 pm

Yeah the squad isn’t even bad. Problem is we absolutely need two wingers. If we don’t spend on that then it is clear that we won’t spend on anything so we are in the **** with the new owners not spending and us eventually going down as they obviously can’t fund us to compete in the premier league. I am still optimistic though that we may sign a couple of good wingers in the next couple of weeks.

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Re: Two wingers

Post by Vino blanco » Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:18 pm

Why do we need two wingers when we have Dwight McNeil? My biggest concern is our midfield: we were overun countless times last season by the likes of Newcastle, Brighton and even Sheffield . If you think that Westwood (sorry Westy), Brownhill and Cork are good enough to carry us through next season in the PL , then we have problems.

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Re: Two wingers

Post by taio » Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:22 pm

Vino blanco wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:18 pm
Why do we need two wingers when we have Dwight McNeil? My biggest concern is our midfield: we were overun countless times last season by the likes of Newcastle, Brighton and even Sheffield . If you think that Westwood (sorry Westy), Brownhill and Cork are good enough to carry us through next season in the PL , then we have problems.
Dyche has identified we need a winger or two which we do. He's long talked about the need for two players for each position. We currently have two wide players and one of them is often injured.

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Re: Two wingers

Post by Vino blanco » Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:29 pm

Disagree, we need a total upgrade in midfield not more wingers.
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taio
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Re: Two wingers

Post by taio » Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:33 pm

Vino blanco wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:29 pm
Disagree, we need a total upgrade in midfield not more wingers.
Fair enough. But it's clear to most people including Dyche that a winger is highest priority.

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Re: Two wingers

Post by Vino blanco » Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:36 pm

A winger (meaning ONE) would be very welcome, not two though, when we need midfielders.
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Re: Two wingers

Post by taio » Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:40 pm

Vino blanco wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:36 pm
A winger (meaning ONE) would be very welcome, not two though, when we need midfielders.
As I say the rationale is two players per position. But that's subject to identifying wide players that would be available and willing to join, which is clearly proving to be a challenge. If we can buy a central midfielder that would strengthen us that would be welcomed too.

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Re: Two wingers

Post by Vino blanco » Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:51 pm

According to your or Dyche's logic then (two players in every position), we need an extra three midfielders to be second back up players to Westwood, Brownhill and Cork (who, in my opinion, are not good enough as a PL threesome). I can't see us bringing in three new midfielders. I would much prefer two new midfielders to an extra winger.

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Re: Two wingers

Post by Rileybobs » Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:53 pm

Vino blanco wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:51 pm
According to your or Dyche's logic then (two players in every position), we need an extra three midfielders to be second back up players to Westwood, Brownhill and Cork (who, in my opinion, are not good enough as a PL threesome). I can't see us bringing in three new midfielders. I would much prefer two new midfielders to an extra winger.
We play two central midfielders and have Cork, Westwood, Brownhill and Stephens. Two players for each position.
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taio
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Re: Two wingers

Post by taio » Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:54 pm

Vino blanco wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:51 pm
According to your or Dyche's logic then (two players in every position), we need an extra three midfielders to be second back up players to Westwood, Brownhill and Cork (who, in my opinion, are not good enough as a PL threesome). I can't see us bringing in three new midfielders. I would much prefer two new midfielders to an extra winger.
Sorry I dont follow your logic under a 442 formation.

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Re: Two wingers

Post by Vino blanco » Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:59 pm

Stephens? I'll file him alongside Crouch, Walters, Lennon etc. The fact that we play two central midfielders and two wide players is exactly the reason we get overrun in midfield most games, especially when the central midfielders aren't good enough.

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Re: Two wingers

Post by taio » Sat Jul 31, 2021 12:04 am

Vino blanco wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:59 pm
Stephens? I'll file him alongside Crouch, Walters, Lennon etc. The fact that we play two central midfielders and two wide players is exactly the reason we get overrun in midfield most games, especially when the central midfielders aren't good enough.
You asked why we need two wide players. The answer whether you like it or not is Dyche wants two players per position. The only area we haven't got that currently is the wide positions, plus JBG has struggled with injuries. Of course Dyche may look to sign a player who can play both centrally and wide and/or change from his much favoured 442 formation.

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Re: Two wingers

Post by Rileybobs » Sat Jul 31, 2021 12:04 am

Vino blanco wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:59 pm
Stephens? I'll file him alongside Crouch, Walters, Lennon etc. The fact that we play two central midfielders and two wide players is exactly the reason we get overrun in midfield most games, especially when the central midfielders aren't good enough.
We’re going through one of the most successful periods of the club’s history playing with two central midfielders. Claiming that our midfield is ‘overrun’, whatever that means, completely overlooks how we play.

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Re: Two wingers

Post by DCWat » Sat Jul 31, 2021 12:06 am

An upgrade in central midfield would be welcome. We were overrun on a number occasions last season, and not just against the teams that it would be expected.

In terms of priority though, with two wingers in the squad (one, as was said, who doesn’t have the greatest availability record) we need a winger, ideally a right wing upgrade.

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Re: Two wingers

Post by ksrclaret » Sat Jul 31, 2021 12:15 am

It's very obvious what being overrun means. We were overrun many times last season and in seasons gone by. It is right to say that it's a product of the way we choose to play, however, which has been successful in terms of results.

I would definitely like to see new additions in the centre of midfield, allowing us to play more like the 2017/18 season, but it cannot be the priority at the moment. As taio has pointed out, we currently have two wingers in the squad, one of whom we can be quite sure will spend lots of time in the treatment room, so we need at least one in. That has to come first, and judging by our recent ability to get players in, we'll be lucky to get that.
Last edited by ksrclaret on Sat Jul 31, 2021 12:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Two wingers

Post by Vino blanco » Sat Jul 31, 2021 12:15 am

Agree about the success we are enjoying and I have said on here many times Dyche is the best manager we have ever had. I still maintain our midfield and hence our ball retention are poor, having an extra two wingers will not change that. I would love to see us have a midfield who can pass to each other, play pass and move football, pass into space for players to receive the ball, Unfortunately this does not happen with our current set-up and personnel.

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Re: Two wingers

Post by Rileybobs » Sat Jul 31, 2021 12:22 am

Vino blanco wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 12:15 am
Agree about the success we are enjoying and I have said on here many times Dyche is the best manager we have ever had. I still maintain our midfield and hence our ball retention are poor, having an extra two wingers will not change that. I would love to see us have a midfield who can pass to each other, play pass and move football, pass into space for players to receive the ball, Unfortunately this does not happen with our current set-up and personnel.
I don’t think Dyche would agree that our midfield is poor because he’s clearly looking for different attributes than what you are, and that’s the crux of it. I’d love us to dominate possession in games, but the reality of the situation dictates that we can’t.

The reason why we are effective is that we recognise this and play a low-possession game where we get the ball into the attacking third quickly and play with two centre forwards in order to make the most of those opportunities. The player that you are after would most likely lack the defensive or physical attributes that Dyche requires, or simply be financially out of our reach.

That’s not to say that we can’t improve on our midfield, but we have four capable options in there but only two wide players. And for a team that relies on creating chances through wing play rather than through the middle this is clearly the priority area for strengthening.

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Re: Two wingers

Post by tiger76 » Sat Jul 31, 2021 12:26 am

If we could get one right winger, and also one centre-mid, that would constitute a decent enough window for now, we really only have Dwight that we can rely on to stay fit for any length of time in our wide positions, and if we're expecting Brownhill to fill in on the right, that currently leaves us with 2 fit centre-mids in Cork and Westwood, I've excluded Stephens as we have no idea when he'll be available for selection again, and his brief appearances in a Burnley shirt have hardly shown much to suggest that he'll turn out to be a useful addition whatsoever.

Given that we've sold Benson, I fully expect another centre-mid to arrive in this window, if this isn't the case, then we run the risk of repeating our mistake when we didn't strengthen in the 14-15 campaign, and the game immediately after the window shut we lost Marney for the rest of the season.

Ditto out wide, with all the best will in the world, does anybody seriously imagine that JBG is going to play 15-20 consecutive games, no I thought not, so given that we.ve released Brady, quite correctly in my view, we need an addition there, and clearly SD and the board agree, otherwise we wouldn't be getting linked to so many different right wing options, now that Albrighton has fallen through, as many suspected it might, I only hope we've got other names in the frame for that key area.

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Re: Two wingers

Post by Vino blanco » Sat Jul 31, 2021 12:30 am

Is that why we were the second lowest scorers in the PL last season then, Riley? "Creating chances through wing play"?
Anyway guys, I've just opened a bottle of Rioja to accompany me through the Olympics, all the best, sleep well.

taio
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Re: Two wingers

Post by taio » Sat Jul 31, 2021 12:31 am

Nobody is saying they wouldn't welcome a central midfielder. But most people recognise our greatest area of risk and therefore highest priority is a wide player or two. There are different ways of cutting it so a winger and central midfielder would be ok.

Rileybobs
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Re: Two wingers

Post by Rileybobs » Sat Jul 31, 2021 12:32 am

Vino blanco wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 12:30 am
Is that why we were the second lowest scorers in the PL last season then, Riley? "Creating chances through wing play"?
Anyway guys, I've just opened a bottle of Rioja to accompany me through the Olympics, all the best, sleep well.
Kind of proves my point doesn’t it? We don’t have sufficient strength in wide positions. I’m half a bottle of Rioja ahead of you, enjoy!

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Re: Two wingers

Post by Vino blanco » Sat Jul 31, 2021 12:57 am

Gold in mixed triathalon relay, who needs two wingers!!

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Re: Two wingers

Post by Woodleyclaret » Sat Jul 31, 2021 6:39 am

Just nipping out to watch grass growing, its either that or the Olympics

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Re: Two wingers

Post by superdimitri » Sat Jul 31, 2021 7:49 am

If we only sign one then we're putting a lot of faith in Gudmundsson keeping fit. I can only assume the medical team seems confident he will if that's the case.

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Re: Two wingers

Post by Paddy1882 » Sat Jul 31, 2021 7:55 am

Vino blanco wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:29 pm
Disagree, we need a total upgrade in midfield not more wingers.
Never read so much rubbish in my life!! We play with two wingers, we currently have two wingers one of which has a history of getting injured, yet you want him and a young man who at times last year looked physically drained to play every minute of every game including cups? Course we need wingers, two of them which is why the manager wants two!!

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Re: Two wingers

Post by mill hill claret » Sat Jul 31, 2021 8:00 am

Two wingers is an absolute minimum

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Re: Two wingers

Post by SkiptonClaret » Sat Jul 31, 2021 8:39 am

Bards and Erik.

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Re: Two wingers

Post by Bangers&Mash » Sat Jul 31, 2021 8:59 am

6AA0B9A4-B4B2-4207-A130-A195C3E66AC2.jpeg
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Re: Two wingers

Post by warksclaret » Sat Jul 31, 2021 10:16 am

Rileybobs wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:53 pm
We play two central midfielders and have Cork, Westwood, Brownhill and Stephens. Two players for each position.
I doubt if any of these four could command a regular spot in any of the other 19 PL games. Westwood is a player that has grown with us and plays well in the "Burnley system". However here lies our problems. In the past half dozen games last season, teams were running straight through us with ease, and this included a number of sides in the bottom 6. Once this happens even the highly acclaimed Mee/Tarkowski partnership will crumble. It simply does not bode well for the coming season unless the club adds an athletic and quality type midfielder. Brownhill, Cork and Stephens are nothing more than PL squad players, who will give their all if called upon, however the PL bar has been lifted significantly in the past 2-3 years

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Re: Two wingers

Post by warksclaret » Sat Jul 31, 2021 10:22 am

superdimitri wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 7:49 am
If we only sign one then we're putting a lot of faith in Gudmundsson keeping fit. I can only assume the medical team seems confident he will if that's the case.
JBG is too far off the pace now, and when played on the right then 99% of the time he stops, checks then has to get it back on his left by which time the attack has slowed down. At best he is back up for Dwight. Now get James on Man Utd in on loan and you instantly change the dynamics of our attack, and then you might just get away with two CM's

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Re: Two wingers

Post by Rileybobs » Sat Jul 31, 2021 10:23 am

warksclaret wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 10:16 am
I doubt if any of these four could command a regular spot in any of the other 19 PL games. Westwood is a player that has grown with us and plays well in the "Burnley system". However here lies our problems. In the past half dozen games last season, teams were running straight through us with ease, and this included a number of sides in the bottom 6. Once this happens even the highly acclaimed Mee/Tarkowski partnership will crumble. It simply does not bode well for the coming season unless the club adds an athletic and quality type midfielder. Brownhill, Cork and Stephens are nothing more than PL squad players, who will give their all if called upon, however the PL bar has been lifted significantly in the past 2-3 years
You’re doing an enormous disservice to the players who keep us in this division season after season. Whether they would get into any other side (they would) is irrelevant as they only need to fit into our system. And to claim that Brownhill, Cork and Westwood aren’t athletic is just plain wrong.

As I said in a previous post, the midfielder with the attributes that you are looking for is more than likely out of our financial reach. And with 4 capable midfielders on our payroll to fill 2 positions we are unlikely to see an additional incoming player unless we sell one, which in itself is a challenge.

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Re: Two wingers

Post by Gordaleman » Sat Jul 31, 2021 10:23 am

Still nearly five weeks of the window left and even the dimmest of us know that most deals are done in the last couple of days every time.

What's all the panic about? Sean and the board know better than any of us the sort of players we need, and I'm sure that they are making every effort to address the situation. Why not just let them do their jobs? Panic after the window closes if we are still in the same situation as now.

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Re: Two wingers

Post by warksclaret » Sat Jul 31, 2021 10:35 am

Rileybobs wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 10:23 am
You’re doing an enormous disservice to the players who keep us in this division season after season. Whether they would get into any other side (they would) is irrelevant as they only need to fit into our system. And to claim that Brownhill, Cork and Westwood aren’t athletic is just plain wrong.

As I said in a previous post, the midfielder with the attributes that you are looking for is more than likely out of our financial reach. And with 4 capable midfielders on our payroll to fill 2 positions we are unlikely to see an additional incoming player unless we sell one, which in itself is a challenge.
Gallagher has just gone out on loan to Palace. A tremendous midfielder. WBA could afford him last year and their wages were amongst the lowest in the PL. Do you now if we even thought of approaching him. I suspect he would have got more game time with us than Palace can offer. I see your loyalty to our midfielders but at the endo of the day quality shows. How many assists and PL goals did Brownhill Cork and Stephens gain for us last season
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Re: Two wingers

Post by ClaretMov » Sat Jul 31, 2021 10:35 am

Gordaleman wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 10:23 am
Still nearly five weeks of the window left and even the dimmest of us know that most deals are done in the last couple of days every time.

What's all the panic about? Sean and the board know better than any of us the sort of players we need, and I'm sure that they are making every effort to address the situation. Why not just let them do their jobs? Panic after the window closes if we are still in the same situation as now.

The panic is the season starts in two weeks, we needed players in early to bed in and get Dyche fit and know the system, bringing in players at the last minute with no pre season will take them until at least 1/3rd of the season played to make an inpact and points wise good hit us hard, we've got away with it for a few season's now it's only a matter of time before it catches up with us, JBG is not good enough and will be lucky to play 20 full or part games all season and god help us if McNeil gets injured
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Re: Two wingers

Post by Rileybobs » Sat Jul 31, 2021 10:41 am

warksclaret wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 10:35 am
Gallagher has just gone out on loan to Palace. A tremendous midfielder. WBA could afford him last year and their wages were amongst the lowest in the PL. Do you now if we even thought of approaching him. I suspect he would have got more game time with us than Palace can offer. I see your loyalty to our midfielders but at the endo of the day quality shows. How many assists and PL goals did Brownhill Cork and Stephens gain for us last season
Of course I don’t know if we were in for him or not, do you? Are you confident that Gallagher has the attributes to fit into our system and our group? I find the way people throw names around as ‘must sign’ incredibly simplistic.

It’s not loyalty I have to our players, maybe a little bit of respect for what they achieve season after season combined with a sense of reality about the level that we are at and the difficulty for us to improve on that within our financial constraints.

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Re: Two wingers

Post by jrgbfc » Sat Jul 31, 2021 10:44 am

warksclaret wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 10:35 am
Gallagher has just gone out on loan to Palace. A tremendous midfielder. WBA could afford him last year and their wages were amongst the lowest in the PL. Do you now if we even thought of approaching him. I suspect he would have got more game time with us than Palace can offer. I see your loyalty to our midfielders but at the endo of the day quality shows. How many assists and PL goals did Brownhill Cork and Stephens gain for us last season
Problem is Gallagher would have probably sat on our bench until February. We all know how loyal Dyche is to his favourites, no way he'd drop Cork or Westwood for a loan player.

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Re: Two wingers

Post by Rileybobs » Sat Jul 31, 2021 10:45 am

The lack of edit function is v frustrating…

Brownhill, Cork and Stephens aren’t in our team to score goals and get assists. They’re not attacking players. As I keep repeating, a player who has those attributes alongside the physical and defensive attributes that Dyche requires from our midfielders will most likely be financially out of our reach.

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Re: Two wingers

Post by Rileybobs » Sat Jul 31, 2021 10:48 am

Obviously Gallagher’s outrageously impressive 2 goals and 2 assists would outweigh anything else. Sod it, let’s sign him and give him a free role.

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Re: Two wingers

Post by taio » Sat Jul 31, 2021 10:53 am

warksclaret wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 10:35 am
Gallagher has just gone out on loan to Palace. A tremendous midfielder. WBA could afford him last year and their wages were amongst the lowest in the PL. Do you now if we even thought of approaching him. I suspect he would have got more game time with us than Palace can offer. I see your loyalty to our midfielders but at the endo of the day quality shows. How many assists and PL goals did Brownhill Cork and Stephens gain for us last season
I'd say very good potential rather than a tremendous midfielder. I'm not sure if we approached Chelsea for him. But I do know he rejected Leeds United because he preferred to stay in London.

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Re: Two wingers

Post by warksclaret » Sat Jul 31, 2021 11:06 am

Rileybobs wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 10:48 am
Obviously Gallagher’s outrageously impressive 2 goals and 2 assists would outweigh anything else. Sod it, let’s sign him and give him a free role.
It actually outweighs Cork, Brownhill and Stephens who between them had a grand total of one assist and no goals between all three . Some midfield contribution. Gallagher was playing in a relegated side.

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Re: Two wingers

Post by Quickenthetempo » Sat Jul 31, 2021 11:08 am

We do need at least one very good winger signing.

As for CM, an upgrade would be nice, but we get over run in that area because they are outnumbered. Can anyone point out us getting over run when it was 2 Vs 2 in there? We were all over Everton at home for the first 20 minutes until their injury forced a sub and formation change.

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Re: Two wingers

Post by Rileybobs » Sat Jul 31, 2021 11:20 am

warksclaret wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 11:06 am
It actually outweighs Cork, Brownhill and Stephens who between them had a grand total of one assist and no goals between all three . Some midfield contribution. Gallagher was playing in a relegated side.
But why are you judging defensive players such as Cork and Brownhill on their goal and assist contributions? Interestingly you’ve left Westwood out of your argument, no idea why that might be.

Glad that you pointed out that Gallagher was playing in a relegated side, it hardly strengthens your case.

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Re: Two wingers

Post by Tall Paul » Sat Jul 31, 2021 11:21 am

warksclaret wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 11:06 am
It actually outweighs Cork, Brownhill and Stephens who between them had a grand total of one assist and no goals between all three . Some midfield contribution. Gallagher was playing in a relegated side.
I wonder why you've chosen those three players to make your comparison and omitted Westwood...

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Re: Two wingers

Post by Gordaleman » Sat Jul 31, 2021 11:22 am

ClaretMov wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 10:35 am
The panic is the season starts in two weeks, we needed players in early to bed in and get Dyche fit and know the system, bringing in players at the last minute with no pre season will take them until at least 1/3rd of the season played to make an inpact and points wise good hit us hard, we've got away with it for a few season's now it's only a matter of time before it catches up with us, JBG is not good enough and will be lucky to play 20 full or part games all season and god help us if McNeil gets injured
We all know that getting players in early would be preferred, but most of us realise that that's unlikely to happen. Players and agents always wait until the last minute to get what they consider, the best deal. That isn't going to change any time soon, no matter how much you panic.

Chill for goodness sake. I think Sean and co know how to run a football club a lot better than you or I.

warksclaret
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Re: Two wingers

Post by warksclaret » Sat Jul 31, 2021 11:38 am

Tall Paul wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 11:21 am
I wonder why you've chosen those three players to make your comparison and omitted Westwood...
If you look at the top of this page you will see I have singled Westwood out for playing well within our system and praised him. I have no problems with him, but I dont think the other three can provide on a regular basis whats required from a PL midfield. I would ask you to see what Cork offered us when he joined, strong consistent performances-enough to get an England cap. His legs are not what they were and he gets dispossessed so often. Its a fact-no one on earth has come up with something to slow down the ageing process. It comes to us all sadly

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Re: Two wingers

Post by Tall Paul » Sat Jul 31, 2021 11:48 am

Jack Cork was dispossessed 0.8 times per game last season. Conor Gallagher - 1.32.

Rileybobs
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Re: Two wingers

Post by Rileybobs » Sat Jul 31, 2021 12:02 pm

Tall Paul wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 11:48 am
Jack Cork was dispossessed 0.8 times per game last season. Conor Gallagher - 1.32.
People see what they want to see. I’d be interested to know how much more distance Gallagher covers in a game than the ‘unathletic’ Jack Cork.

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Re: Two wingers

Post by taio » Sat Jul 31, 2021 12:03 pm

warksclaret wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 11:38 am
If you look at the top of this page you will see I have singled Westwood out for playing well within our system and praised him. I have no problems with him, but I dont think the other three can provide on a regular basis whats required from a PL midfield. I would ask you to see what Cork offered us when he joined, strong consistent performances-enough to get an England cap. His legs are not what they were and he gets dispossessed so often. Its a fact-no one on earth has come up with something to slow down the ageing process. It comes to us all sadly
Cork has only just turned 32. He's got plenty left in him. In any case I'm not sure why you are pursuing the Gallagher comparisons given he wouldn't have come here even if we wanted him.

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Re: Two wingers

Post by DCWat » Sat Jul 31, 2021 12:34 pm

I thought that part of why we were overrun last season, was that our wide players didn’t come as narrow to make up the numbers. Certainly not as effectively as I’ve seen from us in recent seasons.

Playing two in the middle requires more support that I thought they got.

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