In the first half yesterday Brownhill struggled somewhat, although he improved after half time.

However, I think Cork is a far better passer and like at Everton there are certain games where he would be the better option in the side.

Personally I thought Westwood was poor yesterday

Burnley1989 wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 19, 2021 7:53 am

Personally I thought Westwood was poor yesterday

He was,but still improved on his Everton performance....which was a shocker,the worst game I've ever seen him have for us.

Dyche loves a grafter, simple as that really.

There was a stat on Twitter yesterday, Brownhill is one of 2 CMs in the league that receives more progressive passes than he makes. I think that stat nails him to a tee for me, does the stuff without the ball well but when he has the ball he struggles.

Jack will start v Rochdale so chance to impress

Whoever plays in centre midfield, be it Westwood and Brownhill, will improve when they have more passing options available to them, which hopefully they will start to have if Vydra and Cornet start from here. As the OP mentions, Brownhill improved in the second half due to this.

Jack Cork, despite sometime labouring on the ball and despite very occasionally under hitting a pass and losing us possession, is by far and away our best central midfielder. He absolutely should start.

Legs is the answer to the OP’s question I would think. I would like to see all 3 play tbh with McNeil and Cornet/JBG either side in a 4-5-1. I actually thought Brownhill was really excellent second half yesterday with massive work rate and some neat passing too.

Sadly yesterday the silly foul committed by Westwood cost us at least a point. Pope had little to do in terms of saves

The problem is his labouring on the ball.

Cork is better on the ball than Briownhill but in reality neither are good enough. Westwood is the best CM but needs someone better alongside him.

warksclaret wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 19, 2021 8:42 am

Sadly yesterday the silly foul committed by Westwood cost us at least a point. Pope had little to do in terms of saves

Westwood was at fault for giving the FK away, but the major blame lies with Pope and the wall not doing their jobs correctly, if you're in the wall then bloody well jump and take one in the face if you have too, otherwise what's the point of you being there.

Regarding the OP CM has been an issue for a long time now, and it was only Ash Westwood carrying us in this area that ensured we weren't swamped by teams last season, now he's not quite hitting those same heights our lack of options is laid bare for all to see, I'm not against Cork replacing Brownhill, although Josh has been one of our better performers this season given the role he's selected to do, which is disrupt the opposition, and provide us with energy in the middle of the park.

And CM simply has to be upgraded, if not in January then definitely next summer, I just hope we'll still be a PL club by then.

Cornet seemed to provide the whole team with a spark, as did Vydra, and if we play these two from the start our entire midfield might be more effective as a unit, and perhaps finally provide an assist or two, or dare I whisper it even a goal or two, so we aren't totally reliant on our CB'S scoring from set-pieces, or Wood bagging regularly.

Jack Cork dithers Scottie Arfield style too much
Josh Brownhill is the future Jack the past simple

The foul from Westwood was necessary because Arsenal had a great chance of scoring with a man over. Was a classic professional foul tbh. If they score the free kick, so be it because they were just as likely to score during the move.

Jack Cork has been brilliant for us, but he reminds me of David Jones when he was coming to the end of his time with us, he gets caught in possession far too often. Brownhill just looks a lot sharper.

I don't get the witch hunt against Brownhill, why do we always have to single out a player each season, Brownhill does the dirty stuff, tackles, breaks up play he's not a flair player that's not his game, if Brownhill had give away the freekick that resulted in the goal jesus christ we would of been banging on about all season, Westwood did it nothing is said, some people need give their head a massive wobble and look closer at Brownhill's game ffs

Absolute grafter, he is everywhere, and did start being more positive looking for give and goes and forward probing passes.

If there was a midfielder thst looked a bit off form and poor yesterday, I can assure you he wasn't called Brownhill.

I'd suggest McNeil being higher up in the tackles stats as a bigger issue than Brownhill playing.

Don’t understand the anti brownhill comments. It’s after every game. He is our only centre mid with athleticism and he’s absolutely everywhere. Yesterday he was involved in some good stuff going forward as well.

Brownhill wins the ball a very impressive amount and can play a bit too. Yes he’s frustrating at times but cork is probably even more frustrating when he dithers on the ball and loses it a few times a game.

I can see a case for Cork returning in centre midfield, but it wouldn’t be Brownhill who I’d be dropping.

Reposted because you can't edit (come on sort it out)

I don't get the witch hunt against Brownhill, why do we always have to single out a player each season, Brownhill does the dirty stuff, he tackles, he breaks up play he's not a flair player that's not his game, if Brownhill had given away the freekick that resulted in the goal then jesus christ we would of been banging on about it all season, because Westwood did it yet nothing is hardly said, Pope's positioning for the free kick was crap and at that hight should of got his hand to it but again nothing is said like it would of been if Brownhill had made a similar mistake, some people need give their head a massive wobble and look closer at Brownhill's game ffs

Iloveyoubrady wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 19, 2021 9:48 am

Don’t understand the anti brownhill comments. It’s after every game. He is our only centre mid with athleticism and he’s absolutely everywhere. Yesterday he was involved in some good stuff going forward as well.

Brownhill wins the ball a very impressive amount and can play a bit too. Yes he’s frustrating at times but cork is probably even more frustrating when he dithers on the ball and loses it a few times a game.

Brownhill is top 5 for interceptions this season, but no one wants to mention that on here, goes against certain agendas.

Brownhill and Westwood are slightly quicker than Cork and get up the pitch to press a bit quicker. Cork is the best of the 3 positionally, so it's Cork +either of the other 2 rather than the other 2 together as they're too similar.

Westwood's idiocy cost us the game yesterday, completely unnecessary foul as Saka had overrun the ball.

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 19, 2021 9:50 am

Brownhill is top 5 for interceptions this season, but no one wants to mention that on here, goes against certain agendas.

Excellent point and this is probably the main reason SD selects him, he's not going to play defence splitting passes, or beat 2/3 men on a mazy run as that's simply not his game, but for winning the ball, and breaking up the other sides play he's invaluable for a team like us.

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 19, 2021 9:50 am

Brownhill is top 5 for interceptions this season, but no one wants to mention that on here, goes against certain agendas.

While being in the top five for giving the ball away.

quoonbeatz wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 19, 2021 9:50 am

Brownhill and Westwood are slightly quicker than Cork and get up the pitch to press a bit quicker. Cork is the best of the 3 positionally, so it's Cork +either of the other 2 rather than the other 2 together as they're too similar.

Westwood's idiocy cost us the game yesterday, completely unnecessary foul as Saka had overrun the ball.

Totally agree, Cork has to play for me and my choice would be Westwood to play alongside him.

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 19, 2021 9:50 am

Brownhill is top 5 for interceptions this season, but no one wants to mention that on here, goes against certain agendas.

What about his passing stats etc…

Interceptions are great but completely pointless unless you do something when you win the ball back.

He’s a good grafter but that’s about it. He reminds of David Jones.

Newcastleclaret93 wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 19, 2021 10:06 am

What about his passing stats etc…

Interceptions are great but completely pointless unless you do something when you win the ball back.

He’s a good grafter but that’s about it. He reminds of David Jones.

Yeah lots of fans didn't understand what David Jones offered to the team, so it's no surprise to see the same happen with Brownhill.

He does a job, he's getting better, but if he can recycle the ball to the better attacking players then I can live with that.

A bigger concern is McNeil being high in the tackles stats in the PL, top 5.
He's meant to be a creative outlet but he's 2nd only to Taylor for Burnley in tackles made.

I think the answer to this thread is that Dyche has put a premium on our ability to press the opposition. The four that started yesterday in midfield do that better than anyone else (And Barnes presses better than our other there forwards). There was a star put up the other day about the top speeds if our players- Cork was very low and Brownhill very high.

I can understand that logic, but I do worry about what it means for our play with the ball. With Westy and Brownhill, and then Barnes playing off Wood, I reckon our set up is less concerned with retaining possession than any other team Dyche has set up. He's always had a midfielder who is very good at keeping the ball moving under pressure- Cork, Defour, Barton, and before that Jones (I see a comparison between Brownhill and Jones but I don't get that- Brownhill is more Marney and Cork more Jones; in a sense Westy is also in the Marney mould so for me the balance isn't right).

Jones like Cork used to get slated for being ponderous on occasions but that ability to hold the ball and slow things down at times was essential to us playing controlled balls forwards. At the moment it's all a but frenetic when we look to play forwards, and when we do build attacks too often they break down because we lack composure and try and force things too much from the middle of the park - not helped by the fact both centre forwards offer fixed targets and scrap for the ball rather than manipulating it. It also means that, as in the minutes before arsenal scores yesterday, we struggle to draw the other team's momentum and we end up ragged as a result. No coincidence we had a wonderful run of away results 4 years ago with Cork and Defour in harness, even if it meant we pressed less.

Cork might be an answer, and I reckon he's still got loads to offer, but for me the immediate answer might be Dwight centrally ahead of the existing two so we can marry pressing with a bit more quality. That should help us get more good ball to JBG and, hoping he's ready, Cornet, and make us a more rounded proposition.

Are you proposing the set up we had with Hendrick sat there to recycle the balls forward?

It has merits and we were better at pressing teams with that style

quoonbeatz wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 19, 2021 9:50 am

Brownhill and Westwood are slightly quicker than Cork and get up the pitch to press a bit quicker. Cork is the best of the 3 positionally, so it's Cork +either of the other 2 rather than the other 2 together as they're too similar.

Westwood's idiocy cost us the game yesterday, completely unnecessary foul as Saka had overrun the ball.

Actually there is a case to play all three and let Brownhill play the attacker, which he prefers and showed some of that in the second half yesterday. Also McNeil behind Wood could work. Worth a try.

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 19, 2021 10:45 am

Are you proposing the set up we had with Hendrick sat there to recycle the balls forward?

It has merits and we were better at pressing teams with that style

Roughly yes - but with the balance slightly different- the playmaker slightly further forwards (Defour/McNeil) and the real energy/legs coming from slightly deeper (Brownhill bursting beyond vs Hendrick playing off Wood). But clearly McNeil has more legs that Defour and is capable of offering a lot of what Hendrick did whilst also giving us a ball manipulator in the centre of the system. Just said on another thread, McNeil's problem yesterday seemed to be he got frustrated on the periphery and started trying to be too ambitious when he got the ball - and then he got down on himself as a result.

Non of them are good enough, I think i'd start Cork and Brownhill next game though. The lack of composure from Westwood is simply appalling, panic footballer.

They'd both benefit from sharing each others attributes.
Jack is a better passer, but weak as dish water in the tackle.
Josh is the future, and I'm more than happy to see him continue in the team. Could he do better, of course he could, but the same can be said about all XI bar Mee and Tarks.
I've always thought McNeil is best out wide where he does the damage, but with Cornet's introduction yesterday perhaps it is time to move Dwight inside. At least to see if he can provide the same influence from in there.

As for Westwoods idiocy, what was he supposed to do. The defence parted in front of Saka like the Red Sea, from my view he was left with no option. The biggest issue with midfield yesterday was their poor use of the ball, they put in lots of effort, but the nous to pick the right pass was missing, almost as if we were trying to play too fast. They need to keep the urgency without overplaying it.

I've been saying for ages that McNeil should be moved into the middle, behind the striker. Now we have Cornet, it should be happening if Dyche can wrestle himself away from his comfort blanket.

As for Brownhill, I think he brings something to the side that we don't have much of - energy, dynamism, and ball-winning - but he does also lack composure at certain times and turns the ball over when others, like Cork, would find a way to keep it.

To that end, especially away from home, I'd like to see the following:
Pope
Lowton-Tarkowski-Mee-Taylor
Westwood-Cork
Brownhill-McNeil-Cornet
Wood

claretspice wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 19, 2021 10:33 am

I think the answer to this thread is that Dyche has put a premium on our ability to press the opposition. The four that started yesterday in midfield do that better than anyone else (And Barnes presses better than our other there forwards).

Myth that Barnes presses better than our other forwards. I will try and find the stats that show Vydra is actually our most effective presser.

First attempt at adding an image on here… these stats are last season.

But here you can see Vydra is by far our most effective presser. Jay makes more presses and wins the ball more but as a team Vydra is on another level.

warksclaret wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 19, 2021 8:42 am

Sadly yesterday the silly foul committed by Westwood cost us at least a point. Pope had little to do in terms of saves

Sadly, what cost us yesterday was the ridiculous kick from pope. Its a big pitch.. If he'd have found any part of the pitch, no foul would have required making. Absolutely pathetic from a professional footballer

RVclaret wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 19, 2021 11:44 am

First attempt at adding an image on here… these stats are last season.

But here you can see Vydra is by far our most effective presser. Jay makes more presses and wins the ball more but as a team Vydra is on another level.

Only Burnley could prioritise pressing over goal scoring for strikers.

Vydra is a handy player but his goal scoring record is abysmal at best for a striker

Newcastleclaret93 wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 19, 2021 11:47 am

Only Burnley could prioritise pressing over goal scoring for strikers.

Vydra is a handy player but his goal scoring record is abysmal at best for a striker

Depends which way you want to spin it. Last season, with his first ever run in the side, he scored at rate of almost 1 in 4 and assisting another 3. Here I’m not including the 4 minute at the end of a game sub appearances, just his starts. That’s 6 goal involvements so around 1 goal involvement every 3 games, not bad. Plus Wood scored 9 in 9 games they were paired.

In the Championship his goal scoring record is pretty outstanding too so I think your rating of ‘abysmal’ is a bit off.

Newcastleclaret93 wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 19, 2021 11:47 am

Only Burnley could prioritise pressing over goal scoring for strikers.

Vydra is a handy player but his goal scoring record is abysmal at best for a striker

You could look at it that way, or you could make the point that by being more successful with our pressing, we get more opportunities to create chances.

3 goals in 15 starts for both Vydra and Barnes last year, I don't think you could argue it was good enough from either.

Wood scored 8 in the 11 games he started with Vydra. Interestingly Vydra has never provided Chris Wood an assist but a lot of the goals came from improved pressing by the team generally.

Jacks energy levels are in decline when you need it .
Brownhill defensive player at best our midfielders don’t score goals and we need find somebody that does easier
said than done when you don’t money to burn .

Grumps wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 19, 2021 11:44 am

Sadly, what cost us yesterday was the ridiculous kick from pope. Its a big pitch.. If he'd have found any part of the pitch, no foul would have required making. Absolutely pathetic from a professional footballer

The shame was we’d just gone through a 2-3 minute spell of really good defending where Arsenal were probing but getting nowhere. Pope collected the ball and rather than just slowing the game down to alleviate the pressure he tried a daft quick kick that went straight out of play. But we had plenty of opportunity to regroup for the throw in.

Westwood’s challenge may have been unnecessary but had he not made it and Arsenal scored I’m certain some people would be saying he should have brought Saka down.

The fact that neither Brownhill or Westwood can be relied upon to make a threatening forward pass during open play has been a problem this season.

I don’t think replacing either with Cork is the answer but I do believe the more physical presence of Cornet could be.

McNeil on at least a couple of occasions yesterday clearly was unable to control his frustration at not getting a forward pass and that will hopefully be worked on.

Brownhill is a defensive type player and should be judged on that but oh dear his shooting when he gets a chance needs to improve greatly.

RVclaret wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 19, 2021 11:59 am

Depends which way you want to spin it. Last season, with his first ever run in the side, he scored at rate of almost 1 in 4 and assisting another 3. Here I’m not including the 4 minute at the end of a game sub appearances, just his starts. That’s 6 goal involvements so around 1 goal involvement every 3 games, not bad. Plus Wood scored 9 in 9 games they were paired.

In the Championship his goal scoring record is pretty outstanding too so I think your rating of ‘abysmal’ is a bit off.

Last season he scored 3 goals in 28 appearances in the premier league. So yes I would say he is an abysmal goal scorer at this level.

I don’t think it’s a coincidence our worst goal scoring season was when Brownhill and Vydra played a lot of the games. Brownhill one goal contribution in 48 games and Vydra scoring once every 9 games.

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 19, 2021 9:50 am

Brownhill is top 5 for interceptions this season, but no one wants to mention that on here, goes against certain agendas.

Be interested to see his other ‘stats’.

Boss Hogg wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 19, 2021 12:37 pm

Be interested to see his other ‘stats’.

He's been dispossessed just 3 times this season, compared to 9 for Barnes.

Overall he's not a bad player for us, stats can be picked up to push any agenda people want, on here it's usually negative.

DCWat wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 19, 2021 12:04 pm

You could look at it that way, or you could make the point that by being more successful with our pressing, we get more opportunities to create chances.

That’s true, but you would more & likely concede space with ball retention due to the close proximity player to player thus encouraging the opposing counter initiative if non retention occurred during a phase

ClaretTony wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 19, 2021 10:02 am

While being in the top five for giving the ball away.

You could add McNeil and Westwood to that yesterday.