Elizabeth wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 19, 2021 12:16 pm

The fact that neither Brownhill or Westwood can be relied upon to make a threatening forward pass during open play has been a problem this season.

I don’t think replacing either with Cork is the answer but I do believe the more physical presence of Cornet could be.

McNeil on at least a couple of occasions yesterday clearly was unable to control his frustration at not getting a forward pass and that will hopefully be worked on.

Brownhill is a defensive type player and should be judged on that but oh dear his shooting when he gets a chance needs to improve greatly.

Brownhill isn't naturally a defensive player at all. Thats the role he's told to play. If ever you meet him ask him.

Boss Hogg wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 19, 2021 8:53 am

Cork is better on the ball than Briownhill but in reality neither are good enough. Westwood is the best CM but needs someone better alongside him.

There's a lot of truth in this, BUT we have to also remember that Westwood arrived when Defour was first choice and was only really meant to be a squad player/back up and initially wasn't in the starting XI. With Defour's injury woes Westwood became a regular and fair do's he made the shirt his own, but really neither him, Cork or Brownhill are top quality and that gets shown up pretty often.

Rileybobs wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 19, 2021 12:15 pm

The shame was we’d just gone through a 2-3 minute spell of really good defending where Arsenal were probing but getting nowhere. Pope collected the ball and rather than just slowing the game down to alleviate the pressure he tried a daft quick kick that went straight out of play. But we had plenty of opportunity to regroup for the throw in.

Westwood’s challenge may have been unnecessary but had he not made it and Arsenal scored I’m certain some people would be saying he should have brought Saka down.

Now that is just a silly comment.

Stayingup wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 19, 2021 10:55 am

Actually there is a case to play all three and let Brownhill play the attacker, which he prefers and showed some of that in the second half yesterday. Also McNeil behind Wood could work. Worth a try.

Fully agree with this. The best football we've played in all our time in the PL was when we went 451 with Cork, hendrick and defour in the middle. They rotated the press so there was always a man covering, whilst two pushed forward, didn't matter which of them it was. I'd like to see us get back to that as, despite not having anyone quite as good as defour, we do have the options to try it.

McNeil I think could work well there and Brownhill could certainly perform the role the way hendrick did. This squad now has more options than we've had since the season we made Europe. Time to start using them.

Colburn_Claret wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 19, 2021 11:27 am

As for Westwoods idiocy, what was he supposed to do. The defence parted in front of Saka like the Red Sea, from my view he was left with no option.

He was supposed to not deliberately trip Saka, who had taken a heavy touch and overrun the ball. Taylor would have dealt with it. Westwood is like Marney in that he gives away needless fouls in dangerous areas and gets himself booked for it.

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 19, 2021 12:49 pm

He's been dispossessed just 3 times this season, compared to 9 for Barnes.

Overall he's not a bad player for us, stats can be picked up to push any agenda people want, on here it's usually negative.

You have to have the ball to be dispossessed

Not sure there any agenda fans just comment on what they see and we can see it differently. Stats can be misleading. There is a common view though that we are weak in the middle and have been for some time.

Stayingup wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 19, 2021 1:03 pm

You could add McNeil and Westwood to that yesterday.

Yesterday you could but I didn't think we were specifically addressing yesterday

Stalbansclaret wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 19, 2021 8:41 am

Legs is the answer to the OP’s question I would think. I would like to see all 3 play tbh with McNeil and Cornet/JBG either side in a 4-5-1. I actually thought Brownhill was really excellent second half yesterday with massive work rate and some neat passing too.

Yep , agree with this. Cork has never been quick and at 32 yrs old is only going to become slower. This must be showing in training or he would be in the starting eleven.

Cork doesn’t have the legs, our midfield gets torn on the counter if it’s both Westwood and Cork.

Stayingup wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 19, 2021 1:07 pm

Now that is just a silly comment.

In what way?

quoonbeatz wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 19, 2021 1:20 pm

He was supposed to not deliberately trip Saka, who had taken a heavy touch and overrun the ball. Taylor would have dealt with it. Westwood is like Marney in that he gives away needless fouls in dangerous areas and gets himself booked for it.

Not from where I was sat.
Tarks and Mee, both went to block the pass to the guy running in on the left of goal, one of them should have gone to the man with the ball Saka. I was right behind Saka on his run, so the same view as Westy, even though he was closer. One minute he was running at a wall of Claret and Blue, and the next instant they'd all gone. Given the option that it looked like Saka had a clear run, sight of goal, Westy took one for the team. Having said that, as soon as the ref gave it, my guts told me they were going to score, it was just too central for Pope to cover the goal.

Newcastleclaret93 wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 19, 2021 12:18 pm

Last season he scored 3 goals in 28 appearances in the premier league. So yes I would say he is an abysmal goal scorer at this level.

I don’t think it’s a coincidence our worst goal scoring season was when Brownhill and Vydra played a lot of the games. Brownhill one goal contribution in 48 games and Vydra scoring once every 9 games.

Again you are referencing in the 28 appearances the ridiculous 4 minute sub appearances Dyche used to chuck him on for.

Boss Hogg wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 19, 2021 1:25 pm

Not sure there any agenda fans just comment on what they see and we can see it differently. Stats can be misleading. There is a common view though that we are weak in the middle and have been for some time.

Stats are only misleading when people misuse them. The best thing about stats is that they're unbiased, unlike what people see (or more likely what they don't see).

Colburn_Claret wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 19, 2021 1:37 pm

Not from where I was sat.
Tarks and Mee, both went to block the pass to the guy running in on the left of goal, one of them should have gone to the man with the ball Saka. I was right behind Saka on his run, so the same view as Westy, even though he was closer. One minute he was running at a wall of Claret and Blue, and the next instant they'd all gone. Given the option that it looked like Saka had a clear run, sight of goal, Westy took one for the team. Having said that, as soon as the ref gave it, my guts told me they were going to score, it was just too central for Pope to cover the goal.

If you were right behind Saka's run then you didn't have the same view as Westwood as he came in from the side. Saka was moving diagonally and would have been on his wrong foot so, despite the space in front of him, it was a needless foul.

Tall Paul wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 19, 2021 1:44 pm

Stats are only misleading when people misuse them. The best thing about stats is that they're unbiased, unlike what people see (or more likely what they don't see).

Stats are interpreted & interpreted wrongly can be biased with promoting something & neglecting something, stats are broken down into individual parts of the 90mins such as corners & possession etc but whatever the stats say or suggest it can never be used as a substitute for what people see for themselves.

Rileybobs wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 19, 2021 1:33 pm

In what way?

Because its hypothetical.

Boss Hogg wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 19, 2021 1:25 pm

Not sure there any agenda fans just comment on what they see and we can see it differently. Stats can be misleading. There is a common view though that we are weak in the middle and have been for some time.

I don't think anyone would disagree we need to strengthen in CM, and despite a decent window, this is an area of concern, I just hope we can scramble survival this year, and then get reinforcements in the summer, I doubt we'll sign any 1st teamers in January, so we'll just need to manage with what we've got.

Stayingup wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 19, 2021 3:48 pm

Because its hypothetical.

I’m pretty sure had Arsenal scored some people would be saying we should have committed the foul. It’s hypothetical, but also correct.

nothing will ever move quicker than the ball, Brownhill doesn't seem to be good enough so far on the ball at PL level. It's a dilemma because he puts a shift in but I'd bring Cork back also. We need to start picking up points quickly

Vegas Claret wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 19, 2021 4:22 pm

nothing will ever move quicker than the ball, Brownhill doesn't seem to be good enough so far on the ball at PL level. It's a dilemma because he puts a shift in but I'd bring Cork back also. We need to start picking up points quickly

Bring Cork back....he'll no, he's slower than a week in prison, not premier league standard anymore

ClaretMov wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 19, 2021 5:00 pm

Bring Cork back....he'll no, he's slower than a week in prison, not premier league standard anymore

Like I said, nothing moves quicker than the ball

Vegas Claret wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 19, 2021 5:05 pm

Like I said, nothing moves quicker than the ball

I like that Vegas, it's so true. As they say ''let the ball do the work''

Our midfield is so bad at the minute, AblueClaret might have been onto something all along with the Tarkowski back in midfield madness

KRBFC wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 19, 2021 5:23 pm

Our midfield is so bad at the minute, AblueClaret might have been onto something all along with the Tarkowski back in midfield madness

it's an area that needs addressing, just hope we are still in touch come January to be able to attract someone, it's going to be a long season.

Newcastleclaret93 wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 19, 2021 11:47 am

Only Burnley could prioritise pressing over goal scoring for strikers.

Vydra is a handy player but his goal scoring record is abysmal at best for a striker

But he creates room for Wood. Wood was scoring for fun last season playing alongside Vydra. Now Barnes is back he is apparently ‘out of form’. It doesn’t take Sherlock Holmes to figure out why. Barnes would be lucky to make the bench for most teams in the PL.

Tall Paul wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 19, 2021 1:44 pm

Stats are only misleading when people misuse them. The best thing about stats is that they're unbiased, unlike what people see (or more likely what they don't see).

Which they often do. Stats can prove pretty much anything if presented in the right way (or wrong way).

None of them are good enough to play in a 2 anymore. How about trying them all as a midfield 3 with McNeil and Cornet wide, but given license to get up and support Wood? Brownhill would have more freedom to get forward as well.

Brownhill is excellent at disrupting play. The agenda on here is pretty weird. Also people seem to have forgotten that Cork simply can’t do it in a 2 man midfield for 50+ minutes

SGr wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 19, 2021 6:30 pm

Brownhill is excellent at disrupting play. The agenda on here is pretty weird. Also people seem to have forgotten that Cork simply can’t do it in a 2 man midfield for 50+ minutes

Is he though? any evidence to support he’s great at breaking up play? All I ever see him do is chase shadows and make the odd interception

Newcastleclaret93 wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 19, 2021 6:44 pm

Is he though? any evidence to support he’s great at breaking up play? All I ever see him do is chase shadows and make the odd interception

Give it a rest lad.

The odd interception

More and more over the past twelve months we have played the ball early into attacking areas with the hope of holding it up or winning the second ball. Unfortunately the accuracy of these balls has declined and/or our hold up play has regressed. We then work extremely hard to press and set traps to win the ball back, this is an infinite loop that sees our midfield sapped of energy about an hour into the game.

The options to improve this are:-

1. Bring on fresh legs after an hour.
2. Play a shorter more patient passing game that involves better ball retention.
3. Freshen up the central midfield two.
4. Change the formation.

2 and 3 are interlinked, neither of the two combinations in recent months has worked and one of the current two is incapable of retaining possession for long periods, the other two are better but not able to dictate games. The obvious solution is a new signing but we knew this in the summer, I presume there aren't the funds at present to bring in the necessary quality.

I'm not sure playing Dwight in the number 10 role will work as he will have to play far more with his back to goal, that is a skill that isn't easy to teach and I'm not sure it'll suit him. It's worth trying though as if we continue doing what we are at present we are bang in trouble.

Winning the ball back a lot tells you that we spend the whole game trying to do that. If we don't give the ball to the opposition as frequently those stats will change.

The player in question is the weakest of our central midfield options at retaining possession.

There is the conundrum.

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 19, 2021 6:58 pm

Screenshot_20210919-084156.png

The odd interception

Wasting your time. This has been pointed out to Newcastle multiple times before they just choose to ignore it.

In Brownhill we a bought a midfielder getting goals and assists and have converted him into a midfielder that breaks up play. Personally I thought Brownhill would always add more going forwards but the framework is limiting that. Either we need to try a midfield 3 of Cork Westwood and Brownhill enabling him to sit infront, in the old Hendrick role or we need to look at replacing the current box to box type midfielders and target a proper Defensive midfielder or attacking one. I say it with the greatest respect but we are jack of all trades, master of none in the centre of the park.

I think Brownhill comes under the spotlight quite often but I also don't think Westwood is hitting the performances he was a season or two ago.

I agree that Jack Cork would be in my choice for CM but do remember that he was getting a lot of criticism on here last season. Maybe it’s a case of absence makes the heart grow fonder. I predict that Barnes will be dropped and that eventually people will be posting on here for him to be played again.

Having watched the game back. Brownhill and Westwood were both actually pretty good. Especially second half I thought brownhill was excellent.

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 19, 2021 6:58 pm

Screenshot_20210919-084156.png

The odd interception

Yes the odd interception.
Doesn’t that stat equate to just over 2 interceptions a game. That’s the same amount of progressive passes our CM makes a game.

Newcastleclaret93 wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 19, 2021 7:38 pm

Yes the odd interception.
Doesn’t that stat equate to just over 2 interceptions a game. That’s the same amount of progressive passes our CM makes a game.

Yup, but he's also doing more interceptions than the majority of the PL.

I know you're a glass empty kind of person, though, because you'd need to be to complain about how many per game it is.

Newcastleclaret93 wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 19, 2021 7:38 pm

Yes the odd interception.
Doesn’t that stat equate to just over 2 interceptions a game. That’s the same amount of progressive passes our CM makes a game.

You may not think 2 interceptions a game is good enough, but if Brownhill is top of the stat table in the PL with that number, and he was last season as well, it tells you that intercepting mustn’t be an easy thing to do.

The bottom line is, just like Hibsclaret with Charlie Taylor and Papabendi with Dwight McNeil, you have a real dislike of Josh Brownhill that has transpired into an agenda. It stops you from seeing the positives to his game and you attempt to justify this agenda by posting endless rubbish.

Brownhill will divide opinion but the simple fact is without his energy in there (or unless you play all three) Westwood plus Cork just don’t have legs and won’t work. Westwood doesn’t get much flak but he’s been one of our poorest performers so far and if anything, is the one who needs dropping.

As for being a Dyche favourite, far from it, I think Dyche was unsure about Brownhill originally but actually apologised to Rigg and team who sourced him.

Also, if you’re in any doubt ask yourself this; numerous Prem teams have an interest in Browhill but not Cork and Westwood ..do they all know less than the average Burnley fan? I think not.

ksrclaret wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 19, 2021 7:55 pm

You may not think 2 interceptions a game is good enough, but if Brownhill is top of the stat table in the PL with that number, and he was last season as well, it tells you that intercepting mustn’t be an easy thing to do.

The bottom line is, just like Hibsclaret with Charlie Taylor and Papabendi with Dwight McNeil, you have a real dislike of Josh Brownhill that has transpired into an agenda. It stops you from seeing the positives to his game and you attempt to justify this agenda by posting endless rubbish.

I haven’t said it’s not good enough? I am merely highlighting that two interceptions a game is not going to win us games any time soon. I would prefer it if my CM could make more than two progressive passes a game.

It’s not an agenda at all, it’s an opinion. I don’t think he is premier league quality and I think there is a direct correlation between him starting games and our results.

Newcastleclaret93 wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 19, 2021 8:02 pm

I haven’t said it’s not good enough? I am merely highlighting that two interceptions a game is not going to win us games any time soon. I would prefer it if my CM could make more than two progressive passes a game.

It’s not an agenda at all, it’s an opinion. I don’t think he is premier league quality and I think there is a direct correlation between him starting games and our results.

You’ve referred to it as the ‘odd interception’. That, to me, implies you don’t believe he is doing enough in that area.

It becomes an agenda when you can’t even acknowledge the positives to his game. Around the top of the interceptions table this season and last ought to warrant praise. Instead, you’ve looked to turn in into a negative.

ksrclaret wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 19, 2021 8:05 pm

You’ve referred to it as the ‘odd interception’. That, to me, implies you don’t believe he is doing enough in that area.

It becomes an agenda when you can’t even acknowledge the positives to his game. Around the top of the interceptions table this season and last ought to warrant praise. Instead, you’ve looked to turn in into a negative.

Ok I just honestly don’t see it as the massive positive everyone on here does. Taylor has similar interceptions but no one cares because they focus on the fact he gets involved in our attacks.

You don't see anything he does as a positive though, massive or otherwise

You're probably genuinely disappointed when he does something good during a game.

Papabendi wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 19, 2021 7:55 pm

Also, if you’re in any doubt ask yourself this; numerous Prem teams have an interest in Browhill but not Cork and Westwood ..do they all know less than the average Burnley fan? I think not.

That will be more to do with age than ability though won't it?

Will it?

Papabendi wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 19, 2021 8:29 pm

Will it?

Yes. I can't see PL clubs being interested in players such as Cork and Westwood because they are too old.
For my money the three CMs are much of a muchness, but Brownhill is the only one now at all likely to improve.

I don't get all the indifference towards Brownhill,I think he's a good fit for us,and has time on his side to get even better