I know there has been some debate, but it now ends here. Incredible how players become world beaters the more they don’t play.

Hi Papa,

Go on, I’ll bite.

Cork fell over and lost possession and then gave the ball away once needlessly. For me, he was still the best of the three in central midfielders.

All the best

Been finished for a long time… anyone who says any different does not understand football I’m afraid.

Paddy1882 wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:24 pm

Been finished for a long time… anyone who says any different does not understand football I’m afraid.

Interesting observation. That’ll be me and Dande (one of our former club scouts) for starters.

He’s no longer an automatic first choice and his role should be from the sub’s bench. The problem is Westwood and Brownhill are below average PL midfielders.

It was only a week ago that the majority thought Cork was a big influence in the game at City. Still need his experience on the pitch IMO

Paddy1882 wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:24 pm

Been finished for a long time… anyone who says any different does not understand football I’m afraid.

These sort of comments don’t half **** me off.

Because someone might have a different view, they don’t understand the sport that they watch.

Facts are, the huge majority of us don’t truly understand football, we say as we see as fans, not experts, and each viewpoint is as valid as others.

jdrobbo wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:29 pm

Interesting observation. That’ll be me and Dande (one of our former club scouts) for starters.

Really? I never knew that.

Didn’t Dave Whelan break his leg once, too?

jdrobbo wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:29 pm

Interesting observation. That’ll be me and Dande (one of our former club scouts) for starters.

That’s your opinion and your entitled to it, but if you want a CM with no goals and no assists since 2019 I don’t share that view unfortunately

I think he would struggle to get game time at any of the other PL teams. At this moment in time he doesn't cover the ground anywhere near as quickly as he used to, that's either down to lack of game time, lack of agility given his age or the PL has just got too quick for him. I don't know the right answer but unless there is a big improvement from our entire midfield we are only going one way

He hasn't been good enough for almost 3 years, today was comical, midway through the game I was thinking ''even Dale Stephens can't be this bad, can he?'' An absolute comedy performance, everytime the ball came near him, his legs turned to jelly and he fell over.

DCWat wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:34 pm

These sort of comments don’t half **** me off.

Because someone might have a different view, they don’t understand the sport that they watch.

Facts are, the huge majority of us don’t truly understand football, we say as we see as fans, not experts, and each viewpoint is as valid as others.

This has to be the best post I have seen in years, absolutely nailed it, thanks DC for restoring the faith in the board, a pint on me.

Vegas Claret wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:39 pm

I think he would struggle to get game time at any of the other PL teams. At this moment in time he doesn't cover the ground anywhere near as quickly as he used to, that's either down to lack of game time, lack of agility given his age or the PL has just got too quick for him. I don't know the right answer but unless there is a big improvement from our entire midfield we are only going one way

We have far too many players who would need to sign for bottom tier Championship sides like Blackpool to get regular game time. Brady being a good example, he wont get a sniff at Bournemouth, signed due to Brooks' illness. JBG wouldn't get a sniff at a top end Championship side. Lennon the same. Stephens if he ever gets fit again would likely drop to League One (like Marney did). Vokes is in League One right now, I wouldn't say there's a big difference between him and Barnes. Rodriguez another lower end Championship player these days.

You will see at the end of the season when alot of these players leave on free transfers, they wont be going to promotion chasing sides.

jdrobbo wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:29 pm

Interesting observation. That’ll be me and Dande (one of our former club scouts) for starters.

A formidable duo

jdrobbo wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:29 pm

Interesting observation. That’ll be me and Dande (one of our former club scouts) for starters.

Being a former club scout means absolutely nothing.

You can become a scout of a championship/league one side now if you do a course online.

Cork is not our best midfielder and he certainly needs to become 4th choice in January.

KRBFC wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:51 pm

We have far too many players who would need to sign for bottom tier Championship sides like Blackpool to get regular game time. Brady being a good example, he wont get a sniff at Bournemouth, signed due to Brooks' illness. JBG wouldn't get a sniff at a top end Championship side. Lennon the same. Stephens if he ever gets fit again would likely drop to League One (like Marney did). Vokes is in League One right now, I wouldn't say there's a big difference between him and Barnes. Rodriguez another lower end Championship player these days.

You will see at the end of the season when alot of these players leave on free transfers, they wont be going to promotion chasing sides.

I nearly reported this for speaking sense.

Richardsbfc wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:55 pm

I nearly reported this for speaking sense.

I think Marney/Jones when they left were better players than Cork/Stephens are now.
Boyd when he left was considerably better than JBG is now.

If we did a best possible team of Fulham/WBA/Burnley players, only Mcneil from midfield gets in, huge problem.

Vegas Claret wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:39 pm

I think he would struggle to get game time at any of the other PL teams. At this moment in time he doesn't cover the ground anywhere near as quickly as he used to, that's either down to lack of game time, lack of agility given his age or the PL has just got too quick for him. I don't know the right answer but unless there is a big improvement from our entire midfield we are only going one way

If you see my comments under the MIDFIELD topic. CAN IT GET ANY WORSE.Virtually said the same thing

I think any of Cork, Westwood, Brownhill can still hack it at this level IF they're paired with a midfielder who has power and the legs to get about the pitch properly. Unfortunately all, particularly the former two are regularly off the pace and caught out of position - not their fault but we've been crying out for that elusive box to box energetic midfielder for ages. It's a must upgrade position in January for me.

Something seems to have finally clicked re Phillip Billing at Bournemouth. Of course, now the timing is no good.

NickBFC wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 23, 2021 7:42 pm

I think any of Cork, Westwood, Brownhill can still hack it at this level IF they're paired with a midfielder who has power and the legs to get about the pitch properly. Unfortunately all, particularly the former two are regularly off the pace and caught out of position - not their fault but we've been crying out for that elusive box to box energetic midfielder for ages. It's a must upgrade position in January for me.

Spot on

ksrclaret wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:35 pm

Really? I never knew that.

Didn’t Dave Whelan break his leg once, too?

Didn’t know about the Whelan leg

I think a lot of people on here have short memories. Corky is most certainly one of Dyche's best signings and I struggle to think of anyone more industrious for us over the last couple of decades than him.

ashtonlongsider wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:34 pm

I think a lot of people on here have short memories. Corky is most certainly one of Dyche's best signings and I struggle to think of anyone more industrious for us over the last couple of decades than him.

What is Cork being one if his best historic signings (agree btw) got to do with his current form and ability ? Can't beat age unfortunately

Looked like his legs have gone. Do wonder if the bad ankle injury he had has contributed to this. Very poor

Richardsbfc wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:54 pm

Being a former club scout means absolutely nothing.

You can become a scout of a championship/league one side now if you do a course online.

Cork is not our best midfielder and he certainly needs to become 4th choice in January.

Apart from the fact they know what’s needed to a CM, when you lot don’t.

He's a great reader of the game, but he had to be, as he was never quick. Unfortunately he's losing whatever pace he had and being able to read the game is no longer enough to get by. Watching opposing midfielders run past him is becoming embarrassing, I'm sure he must also feel that way.

Lowbankclaret wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:50 pm

Apart from the fact they know what’s needed to a CM, when you lot don’t.

If they think Cork is the answer then no, they don’t.

Not good enough now. Should have replaced him a couple of seasons ago.

Jack Cork 125 Premier League games. 3 goals
Ashley Westwood 143 Premier League games 7 goals
Josh Brownhill 52 Premier League games 0 goals

320 games 10 goals in total for our midfield 3. 1 goal every 32 games. The problems have been there for a number of seasons, age is magnifying them for Cork and Westwood. No pace, no power, no creativity, minimal goal threat. Until this is addressed we are heading in a downward direction.

Herts Clarets wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 24, 2021 8:41 am

Jack Cork 125 Premier League games. 3 goals
Ashley Westwood 143 Premier League games 7 goals
Josh Brownhill 52 Premier League games 0 goals

320 games 10 goals in total for our midfield 3. 1 goal every 32 games. The problems have been there for a number of seasons, age is magnifying them for Cork and Westwood. No pace, no power, no creativity, minimal goal threat. Until this is addressed we are heading in a downward direction.

It’s much worse than this though, the basics of being a CM arnt even being witnessed at the moment.

Look at yesterday as an example

Westwood completed 37 passes
Brownhill 24 passes
Cork 19 passes

With a midfield completing that many passes a game we are always going to struggle to win a game. We are chasing shadows for the majority of games purely down to the fact we can’t retain possession.

I believe the league average is somewhere around 45 completed passes a game for a cm.

Herts Clarets wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 24, 2021 8:41 am

Jack Cork 125 Premier League games. 3 goals
Ashley Westwood 143 Premier League games 7 goals
Josh Brownhill 52 Premier League games 0 goals

320 games 10 goals in total for our midfield 3. 1 goal every 32 games. The problems have been there for a number of seasons, age is magnifying them for Cork and Westwood. No pace, no power, no creativity, minimal goal threat. Until this is addressed we are heading in a downward direction.

Westwood and Cork have been very good for us in large periods of the range of games you refer to above culminating in our significant successes in recent years. I can certainly understand the view that we now need to strengthen central minefield, but I think it's unreasonable to make such criticism over the seasons.

Newcastleclaret93 wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 24, 2021 8:45 am

It’s much worse than this though, the basics of being a CM arnt even being witnessed at the moment.

Look at yesterday as an example

Westwood completed 37 passes
Brownhill 24 passes
Cork 19 passes

With a midfield completing that many passes a game we are always going to struggle to win a game. We are chasing shadows for the majority of games purely down to the fact we can’t retain possession.

I believe the league average is somewhere around 45 completed passes a game for a cm.

That's more about our style of play; the same style of play that has delivered so much.

taio wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 24, 2021 8:49 am

That's more about our style of play; the same style of play that has delivered so much.

It’s not at all, over the last 18 months the number of passes our midfield completes has dropped considerably.

When we finished 10th two seasons ago our average passes completed a game we’re around the 38-42 mark.

What we are witnessing is the mass decline of players due to age.

Newcastleclaret93 wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 24, 2021 8:51 am

It’s not at all, over the last 18 months the number of passes our midfield completes has dropped considerably.

When we finished 10th two seasons ago our average passes completed a game we’re around the 38-42 mark.

What we are witnessing is the mass decline of players due to age.

Where are you getting these stats from?

taio wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 24, 2021 8:52 am

Where are you getting these stats from?

Whoscored - Westwood is the only midfielder at Burnley that meets the league average

Newcastleclaret93 wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 24, 2021 8:53 am

Whoscored - Westwood is the only midfielder at Burnley that meets the league average

Our CMs won't normally meet the league average because of our style of play which is back to my original point.

Stats are interesting, but they can be manipulated to support a particular viewpoint.

For example, Westwood is passing more per game so far this season than is average per game when we finished 7th.

Also, in comparing this season so far to previous full seasons, that doesn't take account of the fact that we typically start poorly.

I would assume that in previous seasons player stats through the season are often on an upwards trajectory.

Lowbankclaret wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:50 pm

Apart from the fact they know what’s needed to a CM, when you lot don’t.

That’s down to opinion same as everybody else, I don’t agree with the concept that football is some sort of a sport where you’ve got experts knowing so much more than anybody else, nobody is a expert just a variety of different opinions doesn’t make anybody right or wrong it’s an opinion, some people do know a lot more than others it doesn’t make them experts the people who don’t know as much only have to read to gain more information to become more knowledgeable, no experts exist in football just people with different opinions & more people might happen to agree with 1 person more than the other it doesn’t make them right or wrong, this is an opinion it doesn’t make me right or wrong.

taio wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 24, 2021 9:14 am

Our CMs won't normally meet the league average because of our style of play which is back to my original point.

Stats are interesting, but they can be manipulated to support a particular viewpoint.

For example, Westwood is passing more per game so far this season than is average per game when we finished 7th.

Also, in comparing this season so far to previous full seasons, that doesn't take account of the fact that we typically start poorly.

I would assume that in previous seasons player stats through the season are often on an upwards trajectory.

To be fair it’s not the best comparison, westwood was a bench player that season he played 1108 mins across 19 appearances. An average of 58 mins a game.

If we compare our CMs that season to this the stats read.

Defour - 42.3 passes per game at 83.8 pass completion.
35.44 completed passes a game.

Cork - 41.6 passes per game at 80.6 pass completion. 33.56 passes completed per game.

2021-22 season

Westwood - 48.4 passes per game at 76% pass completion
36 passes completed per game.

Brownhill - 31.2 passes per game at 77% pass completion
24 passes completed per game.

So in comparison in the 2017-18 we retained the ball considerably better (we gave it away a lot less).

2017-18 we averaged 79 completed passes in CM. We have the ball away on average 14 times a game.

2021-22 we average 60 passes per game. We currently give the ball away 19 times a game.

I think ball retention is a big reason we can’t see out games and score goals

Awful. He’s been great for us. Twice. Unfortunately time catches up with is all.

Lots of mentions about our style of play. We play that way because our midfield are incapable of retaining possession and getting us moving forwards. So we often bypass and go long from back to front.

Newcastleclaret93 wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 24, 2021 9:37 am

To be fair it’s not the best comparison, westwood was a bench player that season he played 1108 mins across 19 appearances. An average of 58 mins a game.

If we compare our CMs that season to this the stats read.

Defour - 42.3 passes per game at 83.8 pass completion.
35.44 completed passes a game.

Cork - 41.6 passes per game at 80.6 pass completion. 33.56 passes completed per game.

2021-22 season

Westwood - 48.4 passes per game at 76% pass completion
36 passes completed per game.

Brownhill - 31.2 passes per game at 77% pass completion
24 passes completed per game.

So in comparison in the 2017-18 we retained the ball considerably better (we gave it away a lot less).

2017-18 we averaged 79 completed passes in CM. We have the ball away on average 14 times a game.

2021-22 we average 60 passes per game. We currently give the ball away 19 times a game.

I think ball retention is a big reason we can’t see out games and score goals

Our stats so far this season won't compare favourably because we have started poorly. I expect in other seasons when we have started poorly the stats have improved through the season. Hopefully that will happen again. Obviously in 2017/18 things will look better because that was a tremendously successful season and way above anyone's expectations. Our team possession I.e. ball retention has always been inferior, again because of our style of play.

Herts Clarets wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 24, 2021 9:43 am

Lots of mentions about our style of play. We play that way because our midfield are incapable of retaining possession and getting us moving forwards. So we often bypass and go long from back to front.

I doubt anyone would deny that our style of play is determined by our inferior technical ability. It's been quite deliberate in order to play to our strengths which has worked well, but I accept that may not be enough this season.

taio wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 24, 2021 9:51 am

I doubt anyone would deny that our style of play is determined by our inferior technical ability. It's been quite deliberate in order to play to our strengths which has worked well, but I accept that may not be enough this season.

True, I also think we've been about long enough for teams to suss us out we haven't radically evolved anything really not enough game changers same old people plodding on going through the motions, cornet seems to offer something different but the rots set in.

Our midfield has always been technically worse than most sides in the division but we made up for it by our relentless approach.

This season looks to be a stretch too far, Cork is not the same player that ran miles and miles in the season we reached Europe, he's older and not as capable of putting in those types of performances.

The whole team appears to have lost the relentless nature that was the blueprint for our success in my opinion. Quite simple I don't think we have the personal to play this way anymore. It works in small pockets of games but as soon as we drop off we get punished. I feel bad for Cork though, he's been a terrific player for us and has been a great signing but I don't think he's up to chasing round the pitch for 90mins anymore.

Jakubclaret wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 24, 2021 9:14 am

That’s down to opinion same as everybody else, I don’t agree with the concept that football is some sort of a sport where you’ve got experts knowing so much more than anybody else, nobody is a expert just a variety of different opinions doesn’t make anybody right or wrong it’s an opinion, some people do know a lot more than others it doesn’t make them experts the people who don’t know as much only have to read to gain more information to become more knowledgeable, no experts exist in football just people with different opinions & more people might happen to agree with 1 person more than the other it doesn’t make them right or wrong, this is an opinion it doesn’t make me right or wrong.

Agreed, but fans complain one week and then can be saying their world beaters the next. He might not be having his best season, but think we should cut him some slack.

Lowbankclaret wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 24, 2021 5:39 pm

Agreed, but fans complain one week and then can be saying their world beaters the next. He might not be having his best season, but think we should cut him some slack.

It's a long season & with the squad & alternatives i don't think we've any other option.

Jakubclaret wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 24, 2021 6:37 pm

It's a long season & with the squad & alternatives i don't think we've any other option.

I just hope we can start picking up some points, no matter who is playing. I think they are all trying their best.

Paddy1882 wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:37 pm

That’s your opinion and your entitled to it, but if you want a CM with no goals and no assists since 2019 I don’t share that view unfortunately

Frightening stats.

Paddy1882 wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:24 pm

Been finished for a long time… anyone who says any different does not understand football I’m afraid.

I just love it when people make a statement then try to shut down the argument by suggesting anyone who disagrees is some kind of fool. I’m sure you’re a believer in free speech and argument but it’s a bit thinly disguised.