• HS2

Posted: **Thu Nov 18, 2021 10:15 am**

Rail link set to be scrapped.Why not scrap it all and have done with it..What an absolute waste of money it is..

Posted: **Thu Nov 18, 2021 10:17 am**

conyoviejo wrote: ↑
Thu Nov 18, 2021 10:15 am
Rail link set to be scrapped.Why not scrap it all and have done with it..What an absolute waste of money it is..

I think the idea of a huge national infrastructure revamp connecting the major cities is massively over due (France TGVs have been running for over 40 years)

But just building it between London, Birmingham and then to a village outside Leicester is a complete waste of time

And we desperately need investment in the infrastructure in the north, and I fear that we are going to be let down again on that one

Posted: **Thu Nov 18, 2021 10:21 am**

Getting places quicker is always good - but what will the pricing be? I imagine it will be ludicrous, like every single train fare in this country already is.

Posted: **Thu Nov 18, 2021 10:24 am**

Expert talking about how bad this decision is on LBC now

Fascinating listen

Posted: **Thu Nov 18, 2021 10:26 am**

Scrapping a huge portion of it, suggests that the people opposed to it all along were right.

Posted: **Thu Nov 18, 2021 10:28 am**

Lancasterclaret wrote: ↑
Thu Nov 18, 2021 10:24 am
Expert talking about how bad this decision is on LBC now

Fascinating listen

Experts, pah.

Posted: **Thu Nov 18, 2021 10:31 am**

dushanbe wrote: ↑
Thu Nov 18, 2021 10:26 am
Scrapping a huge portion of it, suggests that the people opposed to it all along were right.

To be honest, I was against it, but if we are ever going to get more people on to trains, then we need huge investment in a national high speed rail network

London-Bristol, London-Glasgow, London-Edinburgh, Leeds-Manchester, Birmingham-Leeds etc etc etc

But it would cost trillions

This expert really is not pulling any punches on the radio btw

Posted: **Thu Nov 18, 2021 10:31 am**

Will they rebuild the "Bree Louise"????

Posted: **Thu Nov 18, 2021 10:32 am**

I wonder how much has already been spent (now wasted) on the link to Leeds?

And the people who have been impacted? I worked with two people who had houses on a new estate east of Rotherham (could have been Mexborough) who were part of a compulsory purchase do to the proposed line going straight through the estate. One of the houses was still being built so building work was die to stop, she paid a deposit but had nothing for her money. I left the job while all this was going on (2016) so I don't know how it panned out.

Posted: **Thu Nov 18, 2021 10:33 am**

conyoviejo wrote: ↑
Thu Nov 18, 2021 10:15 am
Rail link set to be scrapped.Why not scrap it all and have done with it..What an absolute waste of money it is..

Missed out it's the link to Leeds they are scrapping.

Posted: **Thu Nov 18, 2021 10:53 am**

Haven't they said they're going to invest £98 billion improving other rail links across the north instead of connecting HS2 up to Leeds?

Isnt that a better idea?
People were banging on about that link to Manchester's needing to be reopened for years, so aren't more of those things needed?

Posted: **Thu Nov 18, 2021 10:55 am**

"COS I DUNT USE IT ITS A RIAGHT WAISTE A'R MUNNEY!"

Posted: **Thu Nov 18, 2021 10:56 am**

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑
Thu Nov 18, 2021 10:53 am
Haven't they said they're going to invest £98 billion improving other rail links across the north instead of connecting HS2 up to Leeds?

Isnt that a better idea?
People were banging on about that link to Manchester's needing to be reopened for years, so aren't more of those things needed?

I guess we will wait and see

But the impression that I got from the expert is that HS2 was all about increasing capacity by the new line allowing better services due to less trains on the other lines

If you did that nationwide, you'd have a huge nationwide boost

the point he was making is that local improvements won't have the same effect

Posted: **Thu Nov 18, 2021 10:58 am**

jedi_master wrote: ↑
Thu Nov 18, 2021 10:21 am
Getting places quicker is always good - but what will the pricing be? I imagine it will be ludicrous, like every single train fare in this country already is.

The increase in rail fares is obscene

Posted: **Thu Nov 18, 2021 11:08 am**

The rail network is well overdue improvements, the current state is a disgrace. Proper investment years ago would have allowed more freight to be handled by rail instead of relying on heavy goods vehicles. This would have probably saved £millions of repairs on our motorways, eased traffic congestion and alleviated over reliance on hgv drivers today. This would of course require a government to be able to plan long term without a hatred of the rail unions.

Posted: **Thu Nov 18, 2021 11:11 am**

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑
Thu Nov 18, 2021 10:53 am
Haven't they said they're going to invest £98 billion improving other rail links across the north instead of connecting HS2 up to Leeds?

Isnt that a better idea?
People were banging on about that link to Manchester's needing to be reopened for years, so aren't more of those things needed?

I think thats a fudged number. It includes a chunk of the money already spent on HS2 to Crewe. But if it was the case that it was better to upgrade, then it surely undermines the case for HS2 in the first place, because that was certainly one option on the table.

Posted: **Thu Nov 18, 2021 11:15 am**

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑
Thu Nov 18, 2021 10:53 am
Haven't they said they're going to invest £98 billion improving other rail links across the north instead of connecting HS2 up to Leeds?

Isnt that a better idea?
People were banging on about that link to Manchester's needing to be reopened for years, so aren't more of those things needed?

They have but some of that money has already been "announced" so isn't new investment. And some of the original plans have already been downgraded - a high-speed link from Leeds to Bradford has been scrapped in favour of upgrading the existing line.

Posted: **Thu Nov 18, 2021 11:32 am**

TheFamilyCat wrote: ↑
Thu Nov 18, 2021 11:15 am
They have but some of that money has already been "announced" so isn't new investment. And some of the original plans have already been downgraded - a high-speed link from Leeds to Bradford has been scrapped in favour of upgrading the existing line.

Can't edit this now - i meant to write the line from Leeds to Manchester via Bradford.

Posted: **Thu Nov 18, 2021 11:32 am**

I think we'll have to find out what exactly is in and what is already promised

I guess there will be a lot of disappointed people either way

Posted: **Thu Nov 18, 2021 11:44 am**

“the danger of selling perpetual sunlight and then leaving it for others to explain the arrival of moonlight”

From a Tory MP.

Posted: **Thu Nov 18, 2021 11:45 am**

There is a new line Warrington to Manchester apparently

Is HS2 still going to link up with that, or does it stop at Birmingham?

Posted: **Thu Nov 18, 2021 11:47 am**

Lancasterclaret wrote: ↑
Thu Nov 18, 2021 10:56 am
But the impression that I got from the expert is that HS2 was all about increasing capacity by the new line allowing better services due to less trains on the other lines

This is my understanding in that freeing up existing line capacity with the introduction of HS2 links would really help improve the local services. There's an article somewhere Ive seen which shows how the Trains have to enter into Leeds station with some of them having to loop round the city and come in the wrong direction because there is such minimal line capacity to handle everything coming through the station in an effective way.

Posted: **Thu Nov 18, 2021 11:51 am**

They spent billions on ensuring the already over indulged and spoilt Londoners weren't inconvenienced when going from one side of London to the other, in the form , what was the largest engineering project in Europe in CrossRail.. But that wasn't enough. Hence CrossRail 2. Yet, when the North asks for the desperately needed electrification of the line to help millions get from one side of ENGLAND to the other it's a big fat London centric "No!" The tories are going to pay for this at the ballot box.

Boris has written in the Yorkshire Post today boasting of speeding up travel times from Leeds to London. What he and the London centric establishment don't realise is that one of the biggest concentrations of people in Europe live 60 miles north and south of the M62 corridor . They want to get from Liverpool to Newcastle, from Carlisle to Sheffield, from Hull to Stoke. Believe it or not Boris, for millions of Northerners, London is not the epicentre of the world! He and the Establishment simply don't get it.

Read in the guardian an article by their northern correspondent. Who'd previously travelled into London from Reading subsequently, travelling from Blackburn to Manchester. She said the trains from Reading were plush , had WiFi and were approximately every 10/15 minutes. The ones from Blackburn were diesel spewing boxes on rails that were cast offs from the south. One an hour.....

Read somewhere that public spending on transport -

London- £570 per person

Yorkshire - £ 170 per person

Similar figures for per pupil spending in education.....

Posted: **Thu Nov 18, 2021 11:51 am**

: Screenshot_20211118-114858_Twitter.jpg (356.53 KiB) Viewed 4827 times

Posted: **Thu Nov 18, 2021 11:57 am**

And Leeds isn't the epicentre of the North
Why isn't a direct link to Liverpool from Crewe and then up to Preston a plan?

Posted: **Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:00 pm**

RingoMcCartney wrote: ↑
Thu Nov 18, 2021 11:51 am
They spent billions on ensuring the already over indulged and spoilt Londoners weren't inconvenienced when going from one side of London to the other, in the form , what was the largest engineering project in Europe in CrossRail.. But that wasn't enough. Hence CrossRail 2. Yet, when the North asks for the desperately needed electrification of the line to help millions get from one side of ENGLAND to the other it's a big fat London centric "No!" The tories are going to pay for this at the ballot box.

Boris has written in the Yorkshire Post today boasting of speeding up travel times from Leeds to London. What he and the London centric establishment don't realise is that one of the biggest concentrations of people in Europe live 60 miles north and south of the M62 corridor . They want to get from Liverpool to Newcastle, from Carlisle to Sheffield, from Hull to Stoke. Believe it or not Boris, for millions of Northerners, London is not the epicentre of the world! He and the Establishment simply don't get it.

Read in the guardian an article by their northern correspondent. Who'd previously travelled into London from Reading subsequently, travelling from Blackburn to Manchester. She said the trains from Reading were plush , had WiFi and were approximately every 10/15 minutes. The ones from Blackburn were diesel spewing boxes on rails that were cast offs from the south. One an hour.....

Read somewhere that public spending on transport -

London- £570 per person

Yorkshire - £ 170 per person

Similar figures for per pupil spending in education.....

That's what you voted for.

Posted: **Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:05 pm**

Was there a logistical reason for starting in the south and working on the northern sections later?

Posted: **Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:06 pm**

I personally don't think the rail infrastructure in Leeds is bad.

I can get to any other northern and southern city without much fuss.

The issue i have is the price and capacity. I once had to get the train at rush hour to Liverpool to catch a flight. It was standing room only for the whole journey.

Then there is the price. When you can fly to Spain from Leeds, and return to Newcastle cheaper than it cost to get a train to Newcastle then clearly the system is broken

As a country we need to strive to lower our carbon footprint. Using rail is an excellent way to do this if the price is right, but its just not affordable.

Why does rail travel cost so much in this country. A sleeper train across half of Australia is cheaper than a train from Leeds to London. How is that right?

Why is rail travel so expensive in the UK compared to other countries?

Posted: **Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:11 pm**

I’m surprised anyone is surprised

Posted: **Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:18 pm**

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑
Thu Nov 18, 2021 10:53 am
Haven't they said they're going to invest £98 billion improving other rail links across the north instead of connecting HS2 up to Leeds?

Isnt that a better idea?
People were banging on about that link to Manchester's needing to be reopened for years, so aren't more of those things needed?

The trouble with improving the existing infrastructure is that it will lead to years and years of delays and closures due to ongoing engineering works.

A new Leeds-Manchester line (which is probably a more important line for the north) and the HS2 link could have been built without too much impact on existing services and would then add the extra capacity that is the real reason for HS2 (the faster train times are a nice headline but most industry experts seem to agree that it's really required to increase capacity rather than speed things up).

(And obviously, in the now traditional manner, a lot of that £98bn is spending and upgrades that had already been announced, it's not all new money.)

Posted: **Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:22 pm**

RingoMcCartney wrote: ↑
Thu Nov 18, 2021 11:51 am
They spent billions on ensuring the already over indulged and spoilt Londoners weren't inconvenienced when going from one side of London to the other, in the form , what was the largest engineering project in Europe in CrossRail.. But that wasn't enough. Hence CrossRail 2. Yet, when the North asks for the desperately needed electrification of the line to help millions get from one side of ENGLAND to the other it's a big fat London centric "No!" The tories are going to pay for this at the ballot box.

Boris has written in the Yorkshire Post today boasting of speeding up travel times from Leeds to London. What he and the London centric establishment don't realise is that one of the biggest concentrations of people in Europe live 60 miles north and south of the M62 corridor . They want to get from Liverpool to Newcastle, from Carlisle to Sheffield, from Hull to Stoke. Believe it or not Boris, for millions of Northerners, London is not the epicentre of the world! He and the Establishment simply don't get it.

Read in the guardian an article by their northern correspondent. Who'd previously travelled into London from Reading subsequently, travelling from Blackburn to Manchester. She said the trains from Reading were plush , had WiFi and were approximately every 10/15 minutes. The ones from Blackburn were diesel spewing boxes on rails that were cast offs from the south. One an hour.....

Read somewhere that public spending on transport -

London- £570 per person

Yorkshire - £ 170 per person

Similar figures for per pupil spending in education.....

Looks like reality may be starting to bite.

Posted: **Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:23 pm**

TheFamilyCat wrote: ↑
Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:00 pm
That's what you voted for.

No it's not.

I voted for one thing , I'm getting another.

In 1997 I voted for a left wing government. I got Tony Bliar......

Posted: **Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:23 pm**

aggi wrote: ↑
Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:22 pm
Looks like reality may be starting to bite.

The ballot box will do that.

Posted: **Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:24 pm**

Somebody needs to inform Mr Pace that the ‘Northern Powerhouse’ nonsense that was supposedly a key part of ALK’s takeover of Burnley FC probably now isn’t going to happen.

Posted: **Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:24 pm**

Was there a logistical reason for starting in the south and working on the northern sections later?
- I would guess so that if any part of the project had to be cancelled, it would be the North that missed out and not London

Why is rail travel so expensive in the UK compared to other countries?
- Because most of our railways are owned by the other countries, so the profit they make from UK rail can subsidise rail travel in their own countries.

Posted: **Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:28 pm**

RingoMcCartney wrote: ↑
Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:23 pm
No it's not.

I voted for one thing , I'm getting another.

If only we’d warned you!

Posted: **Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:32 pm**

martin_p wrote: ↑
Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:28 pm
If only we’d warned you!

You did.

The alternative was worse.....

Posted: **Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:39 pm**

I think rail nationalisation is supported by something like 75% of the population

But its like everything that was sold off back in the day, the long term consequences are now being felt

Posted: **Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:44 pm**

RingoMcCartney wrote: ↑
Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:32 pm
You did.

The alternative was worse.....

You'll be told the same thing at the next election. You'll be encouraged to think that any alternative to this rotten lot will be worse. Only you can decide whether you think that's actually true or not.

Posted: **Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:48 pm**

The problem with things like this is it often goes over multiple parliaments and costs a lot of money. Its easy for an incoming party, or even a new leader within a party to scrap/ change to suit which ever direction the winds blowing.

When you compare our network to other countries its shambolic

We need a high speed rail network connecting all major cities in the UK. It would cost trillions but it would save trillions, like all decent infrastructure projects. The motorways would cost trillions to build from scratch now but it would cost a lot more to not have them.

We are over reliant on road freight which is being highlighted at the moment. The motorways are rammed with lorries and apparently thats not enough.

Things like a proper high speed rail network which will benefit the whole country need cross party agreement. It should be signed off by all parties and then put into action without the ability to change or cancel.

Its the same with the NHS. A cross party organisation would be far more beneficial when long term investment is needed.

Will never happen though because most of these morons with power love the power more than doing the right thing

Posted: **Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:51 pm**

JohnMcGreal wrote: ↑
Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:44 pm
You'll be told the same thing at the next election. You'll be encouraged to think that any alternative to this rotten lot will be worse. Only you can decide whether you think that's actually true or not.

It's almost as if I can't think for myself.

I can, and do.

As can be evidenced by my criticising a government that I voted for.

Posted: **Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:52 pm**

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... e-midlands

There's a link on here to the new proposals.
162 pages long, so I'll have a read of it later.

Posted: **Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:55 pm**

Looks like - belatedly - some people are finally waking up to what obscenely wealthy politicians think of the North. Probably still doff their caps to them though.

Anyway, back on trains, we went to Norfolk in the summer. The trains were like something from Japan. Punctual, clean, loads of them.. state of the art. Just to service some nice villages on their trips to Norwich. We're proper third world up here and we're even voting to stay that way. Born to be serfs, unfortunately.

Posted: **Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:58 pm**

RMutt wrote: ↑
Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:05 pm
Was there a logistical reason for starting in the south and working on the northern sections later?

Yes. If they'd done it the other way round they'd have had to do it all

Interestingly a tory MP has pointed out that it wasn't a case of HS2 OR the massive investment in the northern powerhouse rail project, it was supposed to be both. So the £96 billion still leaves the North way short of where it would have been.

I know there has been a lot of opposition to HS2, but it has been compared to the initial installation of sewers. Looking back, this was historically a key decision, and the country wouldn't be recognisable today without it. If you don't keep your infrastructure ahead of the game, then you will never catch up, and people won't want to invest. It's essentially a massive investment over decades and decades. We are already miles behind with national rail infrastructure, and the current decision doesn't do anything to balance this.

Posted: **Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:59 pm**

What worries me more is that there were a lot of promises made at the last election (not just to do with infrastructure) and its looking like none of them are actually going to happen

That does far more damage to democracy for everyone, and I just wish I could hold my hands up and say that I was wrong about it, but sadly I can't

Posted: **Thu Nov 18, 2021 1:00 pm**

It's only 2 hrs 10 mins form London Euston to Preston as things stand.

It's quick enough and expensive enough.

It's an hour to Birmingham now, more or less.

HS2 knocks 10 minutes off the journey time.

Those in favour of the whole expense I hope the toilets don't work and the train breaks down when they're on it.

Posted: **Thu Nov 18, 2021 1:05 pm**

HS2 isn't just about travel times. It also takes strain off the current lines, and frees up capacity

Posted: **Thu Nov 18, 2021 1:07 pm**

Roosterbooster wrote: ↑
Thu Nov 18, 2021 1:05 pm
HS2 isn't just about travel times. It also takes strain off the current lines, and frees up capacity

Yeah, I only really started getting that once I'd looked into it a bit more

Posted: **Thu Nov 18, 2021 1:09 pm**

Before anyone else is thinking of posting on the subject may I suggest you set aside 30 minutes to listen to this chap who seems to know what he's talking about.

I found him very well informed on the subject of HS2 indeed.

Scroll down to the bottom for the interview:

https://www.railtechnologymagazine.com/ ... eth-dennis

Posted: **Thu Nov 18, 2021 1:09 pm**

RingoMcCartney wrote: ↑
Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:23 pm
No it's not.

I voted for one thing , I'm getting another.

In 1997 I voted for a left wing government. I got Tony Bliar......

You voted for a Tory government, you got a Tory government.

RingoMcCartney wrote: ↑
Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:51 pm
It's almost as if I can't think for myself.

I can, and do.

As can be evidenced by my criticising a government that I voted for.

So what was your "thinking" when you voted for a party that has a history of shitting on the northern working classes?

No need to answer btw, let's not make this thread about you. I should have known better than to reply to you in the first place.

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