We can’t go on with this turgid static formation.
SD really needs to think laterally and envisage using his playing resources in a new way.
Somehow he has to get Collins into the side and release Tarkowski for a more attacking role.
He needs to get Roberts Brownhill and Westwood working to provide energy and dynamic going forward.
Stay as we are and there’s only one direction of travel.
We have to make the opposition think rather than handing it on a plate.
Back to the drawing board and getting our best players on the pitch and that means experimental formations, throwing caution to the wind, and using strength and passion to bring our season back to life.
Fortune favours the brave at present we are cowering in a corner and we really don’t need to be.

Not sure offering alternative opinions to Dyches 442 is allowed on here sorry

Totally agree with the opening post!

It isn’t the tactics really. It’s just a tired old team full of players that simply can’t do it anymore.

£44m profit in 17/18 and the first XI didn’t improve. “But we finished 7th last season”…

I think it’s very much time for a change to 3-5-2. The definition of madness is repeating the same thing and expecting it to change, I.e, 4-4-2 with this team that has one win all season.

The other definition of madness is being a Burnley fan, but I doubt I’ll ever find the cure for that.

jedi_master wrote: ↑

Sat Feb 05, 2022 10:46 pm

I think it’s very much time for a change to 3-5-2.

Last time we tried 3 at the back we lost 5-1 at home.

No need to overthink it. Just sign good footballers next time you’re in the strongest financial and competitive positive in four decades.

My impression was that 'blue sky' thinking was rather difficult last night.

Pope
Lowton Tarks Mee Taylor
Roberts Brownhill Collins Mc Neil
Wout Max
442 works lots of teams are switching
We need pass and move with forward fast passes no back or sideways passes that kills forward momentum
Roberts and McNeil both can provide decent crosses.

Woodleyclaret wrote: ↑

Sun Feb 06, 2022 7:08 am

Pope
Lowton Tarks Mee Taylor
Roberts Brownhill Collins Mc Neil
Wout Max
442 works lots of teams are switching
We need pass and move with forward fast passes no back or sideways passes that kills forward momentum
Roberts and McNeil both can provide decent crosses.

Don't get Burnley fans obsession with putting players out of position. Never in a million years is Dyche going to play a young, talented CB in CM.

If Collins, Tarks and Mee play together then its as 3 CBs.

If he didn't chose to play it after the break we have just had, allowing time to work on it in training, along with our lack of wingers, then he isn't going to play it any time soon.

Must admit though, he is saying we need to change the narrative but other than Lowton being dropped I'm not sure what Dyche is changing about our performances.

jedi_master wrote: ↑

Sat Feb 05, 2022 10:46 pm

I think it’s very much time for a change to 3-5-2. The definition of madness is repeating the same thing and expecting it to change, I.e, 4-4-2 with this team that has one win all season.

The other definition of madness is being a Burnley fan, but I doubt I’ll ever find the cure for that.

Didn't we play 5 in midfield against Huddersfield? It didn't work then. It really was turgid. Its about quality of players and we haven't got much in that department.

Players are a little more multi dimensional than some would have us believe, and I’m far from convinced that Collins or Tarkowski could not add something to our midfield.
What does this team lack ?
Well some might ask where do you start but that would be unfair.
There are five main areas of weakness, strength on the ball, passing skill, pace, quickness of thought and clinical execution.
So can any of those be improved.
Maybe part of the answer is to get Brownhill further up the park, a strengthened midfield of
Collins/ Tarkowski, Westwood and Brownhill might enable that.
Or if you’re a horses for courses type
Westwood, Roberts and Brownhill.

We need more pace strength and character in midfield, a strong spine and until we address that we probably only have relegation to look forward to.
Players love a challenge, change often brings the best out of them
Now is the time to be adventurous because we have nothing to lose.

I like this:

Pope,
Collins, Tarkowski, Mee,
Roberts, Westwood, Brownhill, Taylor,
Cornet, Weghorst, McNeil.

boatshed bill wrote: ↑

Sun Feb 06, 2022 9:48 am

I like this:

Pope,
Collins, Tarkowski, Mee,
Roberts, Westwood, Brownhill, Taylor,
Cornet, Weghorst, McNeil.

Definitely a case for something like this.

The only penetrative run of note from Burnley the entire game last night was from Tarkowski. Says a lot.

jedi_master wrote: ↑

Sun Feb 06, 2022 9:51 am

The only penetrative run of note from Burnley the entire game last night was from Tarkowski. Says a lot.

And only two serious crosses, both from Roberts, the second Jay Rod headed wide

boatshed bill wrote: ↑

Sun Feb 06, 2022 9:48 am

I like this:

Pope,
Collins, Tarkowski, Mee,
Roberts, Westwood, Brownhill, Taylor,
Cornet, Weghorst, McNeil.

I have been pushing for that line up for a few weeks now. It is madness to continue with 442. How anyone can't see that is beyond belief, especially someone paid what Sean is.

McNeil has become next to useless as an attacking threat. Every other team just put 2 or 3 men on Dwight and he goes backwards or sideways. He needs to be given freedom to move inside etc. and not be too concerned about tracking back. That would also make space for a more freed up Taylor to push on to the bye-line.

Indeed pretty much what I would go for, except as I can’t see SD moving very dramatically away from 4-4-2, I fancy the best chance of seeing it might be to play Collins or Tarkowski in a fluid type of holding role.
Get your best players on the pitch is never a bad policy to follow.
Yes it might take time to gel, and time at present isn’t our friend but it would I think offer us a springboard from which to attack, give us more potency from set pieces, provide us with more physical presence and one would hope fluidity.
SD always takes some budging from route 1 but in the past he has when pushed in a corner been more inventive.
Let’s hope he takes this opportunity to re-invent himself and the team.
Fortune favours the brave.

I’m not sure we need much blue sky thinking.

Whether we play 3,4 or 5 of at the back, we won’t start looking more competent in possession until weve got ourselves a method of getting our most technically gifted players into the game in positions when they can be effective. At present we’ve got McNeil stuck on the left side whenever we get the ball back, and Cornet stuck up top with his back to goal, and we’re hoping some how the ball magically transfers itself through the thirds to them in those roles.

They both need to be more involved, earlier. Cornet is a midfielder by trade and whenever we’ve used him in a deeper,wider role so that he’s facing the defence when he gets the ball and can carry it, he’s looked more effective than he ever has as a centre forward with his back to goal. McNeil is increasingly starved of space on the left because teams know he’s our only effective conduit to the front line, and that burden is itself affecting him.

Play Cornet in a position when he can create chances as well as get on the end of them so he’s sharing the creative burden with McNeil, preferably whilst playing McNeil as a third midfielder in the role he’s always looked naturally suited to and give him freedom, but at the very least giving him the freedom to come out of the framework more and earlier in our build up, and we might stop feeding on scraps and look a more coherent football team. We might be a bit more exposed in wide areas defensively but something’s got to give and frankly if we can keep the ball better we might do less defending.

Square pegs in square holes. It might not be enough because we’re short of quality and pace. But it might give us a better chance.

claretspice wrote: ↑

Sun Feb 06, 2022 11:30 am

I’m not sure we need much blue sky thinking.

Whether we play 3,4 or 5 of at the back, we won’t start looking more competent in possession until weve got ourselves a method of getting our most technically gifted players into the game in positions when they can be effective. At present we’ve got McNeil stuck on the left side whenever we get the ball back, and Cornet stuck up top with his back to goal, and we’re hoping some how the ball magically transfers itself through the thirds to them in those roles.

They both need to be more involved, earlier. Cornet is a midfielder by trade and whenever we’ve used him in a deeper,wider role so that he’s facing the defence when he gets the ball and can carry it, he’s looked more effective than he ever has as a centre forward with his back to goal. McNeil is increasingly starved of space on the left because teams know he’s our only effective conduit to the front line, and that burden is itself affecting him.

Play Cornet in a position when he can create chances as well as get on the end of them so he’s sharing the creative burden with McNeil, preferably whilst playing McNeil as a third midfielder in the role he’s always looked naturally suited to and give him freedom, but at the very least giving him the freedom to come out of the framework more and earlier in our build up, and we might stop feeding on scraps and look a more coherent football team. Square pegs in square holes.

I don't think Dyche trusts Cornet to do the defensive side of things, which is why he's stuck him upfront. I agree we need to try and get more out of Dwight, he's a shadow of the player he was when he burst on the scene.

SGr wrote: ↑

Sat Feb 05, 2022 10:50 pm

Last time we tried 3 at the back we lost 5-1 at home.

You see. Guaranteed a goal already.

I updated my post to address that point. At present, a very high proportion of the chances we concede come from the fact the back 6 aren’t good enough to ball to move the ball to McNeil/Cornet and so we turn over possession in dangerous areas. I’d take giving us more technical options in the middle area of the pitch to help us get through the thirds even if it came at the expense of us being a bit more vulnerable to raids by opposing full back.

Cornet played left back for Lyon. I know it’s different but he’s not a complete mug defensively, and if Dyche is so concerned about his defending (given he’s publicly acknowledged Cornet will likely settle on the flank) then that’s probably a more damning indictment of our mindset than anything else. We can’t keep sticking our best players high and wide and hoping that the ball gets to them without any discernible plan which plays to their strengths.

I definitely wouldn't move from a back 4 but our best football at this level came when we were 451 with Hendrick, Defour and Cork playing in an interchangeable central 3. Obvs we haven't got anyone if Defour's calibre but McNeil playing centrally with any of Cork, Westwood or Stephens sitting behind him, would be the way to go. Cornet on the left and either Jay or Weghorst up top. Right side is a problem but as long as we're not wasting McNeil out there, it doesn't really matter who plugs that gap.

That should give us more solidity, more movement and more options in the areas we need them.

5 at the back with Lowton and Taylor to mirror what Chilwell and James were doing earlier in the season for Chelsea. Collins, Tarks and Mee. Leaves you 5 to pick, Cornet and WW are shoe ins, leaves 3 to pick, Westwood, Brownhill & McNeil. I guess if I was trying to pick my outfield players that is my 11 and formation 3 5 2 or 5 3 2 in defence.

jrgbfc wrote: ↑

Sun Feb 06, 2022 11:33 am

I don't think Dyche trusts Cornet to do the defensive side of things, which is why he's stuck him upfront. I agree we need to try and get more out of Dwight, he's a shadow of the player he was when he burst on the scene.

Trying 4-3-3/4-5-1 would allow for an extra central midfielder to cover Cornet's defensive duties. It would also push him wider where he looked more effective yesterday. McNeil playing in a three up front would allow him a more free role and when he drifts inside, it opens space for Taylor.

quoonbeatz wrote: ↑

Sun Feb 06, 2022 11:47 am

I definitely wouldn't move from a back 4 but our best football at this level came when we were 451 with Hendrick, Defour and Cork playing in an interchangeable central 3. Obvs we haven't got anyone if Defour's calibre but McNeil playing centrally with any of Cork, Westwood or Stephens sitting behind him, would be the way to go. Cornet on the left and either Jay or Weghorst up top. Right side is a problem but as long as we're not wasting McNeil out there, it doesn't really matter who plugs that gap.

That should give us more solidity, more movement and more options in the areas we need them.

Forgot Brownhill existed

Watching Leeds against West Ham a couple of week back and the talent they have in their youth set up. We, churn out nothing...no one ever gets near the pitch for game time...and there lies the problem...he doesn't trust anyone who can't put a shift in...I hardly even noticed Stephens and Westwood were on the pitch...offered nothing.

I fancy Weghorst might do best as an impact sub at present. Jay starting gives us more mobility and I fancy would make it harder for teams to combat us, with Cornet McNeil and Brownhill breaking from midfield. We really haven’t seen anything of Brownhill as a striker but you just don’t lose that ability. If we can get 4 sources of goals plus Mee Collins and Tarkowski making life difficult in the box from set pieces and throw ins we might just see a goal or two.