The most concerning financial journo article yet!
Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2022 6:54 pm
https://www.uptheclarets.com/messageboard/
https://www.uptheclarets.com/messageboard/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=60148
Is this Kieron Maguire writing in the Mail - or is it their own reporter?Lowbankclaret wrote: ↑Wed Feb 09, 2022 6:54 pmVery concerning.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sport ... -DOWN.html
I think Kieran Maguire said as much in a local newspaper along the lines of "these deals can work" and added the caveat as long as "the owners fulfilled their promises". He says as much in this article in that it has clearly worked for Man Utd albeit many Man Utd fans may disagree.
Not seen the first point discussed before so who is it that is paid less money if Burnley are relegated?Paul Waine wrote: ↑Wed Feb 09, 2022 7:11 pm
The figures the Mail reports are misleading. Yes, £170 million to buy the club - but only if the club remains in the Premier League. A lesser figure is due if the club is relegated.
And, where is the evidence that MSD will require repayment of £60 million if relegated? Would either ALK or MSD have signed those loan terms for Burnley, a club that has often been favourite for relegation.
Not sure who it was that posted that but, if true, Kieran Maguire is now disagreeing with Kieran Maguire.
The point being made was that MSD may not be calling in the loan upon relegation, not that the loan would be written off, which as you say would be bonkers. That was my reading of the comment.Devils_Advocate wrote: ↑Wed Feb 09, 2022 7:41 pmNot seen the first point discussed before so who is it that is paid less money if Burnley are relegated?
On the second point I may have misunderstood but is the suggestion that MSD would lend us £60m and agree for us not to repay it all should we get relegated? I can see why that would appeal to Mr Pace but it sounds a little daft that MSD would provide a secured loan to Burnley, "a club that has often been favourite for relegation" with the loan terms agreeing that they wont get repaid the full amount should said club get relegated. I mean they'd be bonkers to put in loan terms that state the full amount of the loan has to be repaid wouldn't they!
The situation is very likely to be much worse now than had we gone down say three years ago.dougcollins wrote: ↑Wed Feb 09, 2022 7:43 pmNone of this is rocket science.
For me, going down has never been an acceptable option, and we really will be in the sh!t.
No it is currently interest only. I think it highly possible that if we are relegated we would also have to start paying capital back - but as Paul says no one knows the truth of this albeit The Mail have claimed it before so.......!Devils_Advocate wrote: ↑Wed Feb 09, 2022 7:41 pmNot seen the first point discussed before so who is it that is paid less money if Burnley are relegated?
On the second point I may have misunderstood but is the suggestion that MSD would lend us £60m and agree for us not to repay it all should we get relegated? I can see why that would appeal to Mr Pace but it sounds a little daft that MSD would provide a secured loan to Burnley, "a club that has often been favourite for relegation" with the loan terms agreeing that they wont get repaid the full amount should said club get relegated. I mean they'd be bonkers to put in loan terms that state the full amount of the loan has to be repaid wouldn't they!
Which accounts ALKs or Burnley FCs or the consolidated group accounts?GodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 09, 2022 7:49 pmLight on any real new information or detail if we're going to be honest.
Just a fluffer article for the Mail so they can talk about relegation etc.
I'll wait for the accounts to be released.
I dont understand what you are saying with regards to my questions.ClaretPete001 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 09, 2022 7:48 pmNo it is currently interest only. I think it highly possible that if we are relegated we would also have to start paying capital back - but as Paul says no one knows the truth of this albeit The Mail have claimed it before so.......!
I agree it would be bonkers of the club to have to pay it all back; equally, it would be bonkers of MSD not to re-assess the risk to their loan on relegation
1. Currently the loan isn't being repaid - it is interest only (£6 million).Devils_Advocate wrote: ↑Wed Feb 09, 2022 7:58 pmI dont understand what you are saying with regards to my questions.
Are you agreeing with what Paul seems to be suggesting whereby MSD would have built in loan terms to lend us £60m but dont require the £60m to be repaid should we be relegated? If so what would be the logic and benefit for MSD?
Paul says noone knows the truth but is quick to make his own assumptions that are equally unfounded like the above.
Also do you know what Paul was referring too when stating that the price the club was bought for will reduce if we go down? Is the truth and are the details of who gets less known (if so im interested in the answer) or is this Paul just doing what the Mail are doing and claiming something where the truth is unknown?
I think the only safe relegation is the one immediately following promotion, to be honest.ClaretTony wrote: ↑Wed Feb 09, 2022 7:47 pmThe situation is very likely to be much worse now than had we gone down say three years ago.
Paul you need to re-read the share offer letter - The minimum price for the 84% of shares (all 102,852 of them), comes in at less than £500 shy of £170m (relegation almost certainly means it will not be more) - there is also the option to buy the other 12,048 shares from those seven sellers (minimum of another £19.9m) and not forgetting the offer to the small shareholders - 7,578 shares at £1,699 is £12.875mPaul Waine wrote: ↑Wed Feb 09, 2022 7:11 pmIs this Kieron Maguire writing in the Mail - or is it their own reporter?
The figures the Mail reports are misleading. Yes, £170 million to buy the club - but only if the club remains in the Premier League. A lesser figure is due if the club is relegated.
UTC
Not quite - as the article states 3 years ago we had £80 million in the bank and a team largely comprised of players at their peak.duncandisorderly wrote: ↑Wed Feb 09, 2022 8:08 pmI think the only safe relegation is the one immediately following promotion, to be honest.
Once a club has entered it's second year it starts spending money.
By the time it's entered it's 5th year, all of it's players are on top level money.
To make it easier Ive replied under your points but thanks it has helpedClaretPete001 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 09, 2022 8:05 pm1. Currently the loan isn't being repaid - it is interest only (£6 million).
I know this and I was talking about the capital repayment. Reading this response I am now assuming Paul (and you) were talking about a loan term that made the debt immediately repayable. If thats the case then thats the bit I wasnt getting and now get the point and it makes more sense. I thought that Paul was suggesting that the capital amount we would have to repay eventually would reduce if relegated
2. The article infers (in the way journos have) that if we go down we would also have to start repaying capital
As per above but I think that its not so far fetched that in the case of relegation one of the parties might have wanted to reduce some of the loan
3. I don't agree with Paul on anything but in a very respectful way
I was only asking if you agreed with one point. Your response has helped clarify what I was asking Paul and now makes sense
4. Paul is suggesting that the loan will carry on being interest only - like you - I find that unlikely but no one knows.
See #2
5. Paul does say no one knows and but then does make inferences of his own (refer to 3)
number 3 duly referred to
6. The club was bought for £102m with a further £68 million if we stay in the Premiership
Can you clarify please as whose £68m is it if we stay in the Premier League?
7. Paul is correct on No. 6 so please amend No. 3 to I don't agree with Paul 99 % of the time.
I'll defer until #6 is clarified
I hope that helps.
The club's to see if any debt has been loaded onto it.ClaretPete001 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 09, 2022 7:53 pmWhich accounts ALKs or Burnley FCs or the consolidated group accounts?
The interesting thing is how the remaining payments to Garlick are structured, not much detail around it and I don't believe the talk of Garlick retaking over the club if they fail to pay. Maybe Garlick takes back some shares but not control? who knowsDCWat wrote: ↑Wed Feb 09, 2022 7:45 pmThe point being made was that MSD may not be calling in the loan upon relegation, not that the loan would be written off, which as you say would be bonkers. That was my reading of the comment.
It would likely be in MSD’s interest for us to be promoted quickly, should the worst happen.
Where did you get that from and who misses out on the £68m? is that the remaining instalments to be paid to Garlick? I haven't seen anywhere that the instalments end if we're relegated and ALK save £68m.ClaretPete001 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 09, 2022 8:05 pm
6. The club was bought for £102m with a further £68 million if we stay in the Premiership
Nor have I but it's logical if we think about it.
Good ho....Devils_Advocate wrote: ↑Wed Feb 09, 2022 8:21 pmTo make it easier Ive replied under your points but thanks it has helped
Paul has said the purchase price is £102million. Chester said this will rise to £200 million when al the shares are bought and Paul has said (I'm pretty sure on threads you've been on) that on top of the £102 million a further £68 million will go to the former owners but only if we stay in the Premiership. I think Maguire alludes to it in the article.
Yeah but we did stay in the PL under ALK's control? reports recently suggested deadlines had been changed for repayments, I don't believe the Garlick takes back control if we're relegated stuff but nor do I believe Garlick just gives up on the £68m outstanding?GodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 09, 2022 8:36 pmNor have I but it's logical if we think about it.
A championship club is always worth less than a PL one.
The debt won't be on Burnley FCs account - it will be on ALKs because Burnley FC didn't buy itself. The debt is secured on Burnley's assets and that may not be On the accounts either.GodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 09, 2022 8:26 pmThe club's to see if any debt has been loaded onto it.
I doubt we will see ALK's or Calders?
Paul said;ClaretPete001 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 09, 2022 8:40 pmPaul has said the purchase price is £102million. Chester said this will rise to £200 million when al the shares are bought and Paul has said (I'm pretty sure on threads you've been on) that on top of the £102 million a further £68 million will go to the former owners but only if we stay in the Premiership. I think Maguire alludes to it in the article.
Thats what I thought you meant and therefore I disagree with the below statementClaretPete001 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 09, 2022 8:37 pmGood ho....
Point 6 - the £68 million would be paid to the former owners mainly MG / JB not sure about the exact amounts
AN awful lot of money...
Sorry missed your reply but yes this makes more sense and I was indeed not getting it so thanksDCWat wrote: ↑Wed Feb 09, 2022 7:45 pmThe point being made was that MSD may not be calling in the loan upon relegation, not that the loan would be written off, which as you say would be bonkers. That was my reading of the comment.
It would likely be in MSD’s interest for us to be promoted quickly, should the worst happen.
What I have said is in what is considered a legal document (the Share Offer Letter of Oct 4 2021) it is from the club on behalf of CVHL/VSL the equivalent of coming from Alan Pace's mouthClaretPete001 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 09, 2022 8:40 pmPaul has said the purchase price is £102million. Chester said this will rise to £200 million when al the shares are bought and Paul has said (I'm pretty sure on threads you've been on) that on top of the £102 million a further £68 million will go to the former owners but only if we stay in the Premiership. I think Maguire alludes to it in the article.
I don't know whether that is true or not I can only say what I have read in the media and what Paul has said...!Devils_Advocate wrote: ↑Wed Feb 09, 2022 8:46 pmThats what I thought you meant and therefore I disagree with the below statement
" £170 million to buy the club - but only if the club remains in the Premier League. A lesser figure is due if the club is relegated."
If Burnley are relegated then either the £68m can still be paid to them in full or the ALK purchase of the club for £170m does not complete, part if not most of the club goes back to MG / JB and Mr Pace is gone
Thanks for the clarification ChesterChester Perry wrote: ↑Wed Feb 09, 2022 8:48 pmWhat I have said is in what is considered a legal document (the Share Offer Letter of Oct 4 2021) it is from the club on behalf of CVHL/VSL the equivalent of coming from Alan Pace's mouth
CVHL/VSL have committed to the 102,852 shares at a minimum price
they have an option on the remaining 12,048 shares from those same sellers
they have made an offer for 7,578 shares from the small shareholders
there is nothing vague about it it is clear legal fact, that over 1700 shareholders have received in writing (some of which are member entities (Clarets Trust, Earby Clarets etc) and it is likely a few hundred others have seen the letter too.
Where is Paul and Pete getting the less than £170m from if we're relegated, what happens to the £68m owed to Garlick? I haven't seen it reported anywhere to be potentially less than £170m if we're relegated, the only thing reported was the potential for Garlick to regain control.Chester Perry wrote: ↑Wed Feb 09, 2022 8:48 pmWhat I have said is in what is considered a legal document (the Share Offer Letter of Oct 4 2021) it is from the club on behalf of CVHL/VSL the equivalent of coming from Alan Pace's mouth
CVHL/VSL have committed to the 102,852 shares at a minimum price
they have an option on the remaining 12,048 shares from those same sellers
they have made an offer for 7,578 shares from the small shareholders
there is nothing vague about it it is clear legal fact, that over 1700 shareholders have received in writing (some of which are member entities (Clarets Trust, Earby Clarets etc) and it is likely a few hundred others have seen the letter too.
I don't know KRBFC - like everyone on here I'm repeating what is in the public domain. Like you I think these are enormous figures for a club like Burnley but I am conscious of not misrepresenting anyone's points so don't want to conjecture further.KRBFC wrote: ↑Wed Feb 09, 2022 8:44 pmPaul said;
The figures the Mail reports are misleading. Yes, £170 million to buy the club - but only if the club remains in the Premier League. A lesser figure is due if the club is relegated
I don't know where he got the final part from, unless he also believes Garlick regains control if they fail to pay the instalments.
The £68m (if that is wat it is - we are unable to confirm CVHL/VSL having more than £98m on Dec 30 2020 ) is owed to the 7 sellers proportionately to the shareholdings they sold.KRBFC wrote: ↑Wed Feb 09, 2022 8:54 pmWhere is Paul and Pete getting the less than £170m from if we're relegated, what happens to the £68m owed to Garlick? I haven't seen it reported anywhere to be potentially less than £170m if we're relegated, the only thing reported was the potential for Garlick to regain control.
This is where Pauls says it....KRBFC wrote: ↑Wed Feb 09, 2022 8:54 pmWhere is Paul and Pete getting the less than £170m from if we're relegated, what happens to the £68m owed to Garlick? I haven't seen it reported anywhere to be potentially less than £170m if we're relegated, the only thing reported was the potential for Garlick to regain control.
but that potential £68m is just wiped out if we're relegated?Chester Perry wrote: ↑Wed Feb 09, 2022 8:58 pmThe £68m (if that is wat it is - we are unable to confirm CVHL/VSL having more than £98m on Dec 30 2020 ) is owed to the 7 sellers proportionately to the shareholdings they sold.
Hi CP, yes, I've still to get my head around the details in the offer to small shareholders, the details reported in Freight Investors annual accounts and the original reports of the deal.Chester Perry wrote: ↑Wed Feb 09, 2022 8:11 pmPaul you need to re-read the share offer letter - The minimum price for the 84% of shares (all 102,852 of them), comes in at less than £500 shy of £170m (relegation almost certainly means it will not be more) - there is also the option to buy the other 12,048 shares from those seven sellers (minimum of another £19.9m) and not forgetting the offer to the small shareholders - 7,578 shares at £1,699 is £12.875m
Sorry if it’s already been covered on the shareholder thread (or elsewhere) but (and appreciating that our position has become more precarious since the offer) why would ALK be offering to purchase additional shares now?Chester Perry wrote: ↑Wed Feb 09, 2022 8:58 pmThe £68m (if that is wat it is - we are unable to confirm CVHL/VSL having more than £98m on Dec 30 2020 ) is owed to the 7 sellers proportionately to the shareholdings they sold.
Thats not based on anything but Paul making up a scenario that fits his narrative. Thats the problem with his postings on this topic in that he took an ideological position from the offset and rather than looking for new info and facts to reassess his position he just looks to try and use them in a way to support his fixed ideological viewClaretPete001 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 09, 2022 9:03 pmThis is where Pauls says it....
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=58606&p=1732590&hilit=102#p1732590
It is very complex - I have spent the last few days writing a section for the corrected article under the heading The Takeover Acquisition: Separating folklore from fact it is over 2000 words longPaul Waine wrote: ↑Wed Feb 09, 2022 9:09 pmHi CP, yes, I've still to get my head around the details in the offer to small shareholders, the details reported in Freight Investors annual accounts and the original reports of the deal.
I re-read it and realised as much - the position of the club could be much worse than I feared. And I already fear the worstDevils_Advocate wrote: ↑Wed Feb 09, 2022 9:14 pmThats not based on anything but Paul making up a scenario that fits his narrative. Thats the problem with his postings on this topic in that he took an ideological position from the offset and rather than looking for new info and facts to reassess his position he just looks to try and use them in a way to support his fixed ideological view
A lot of what he states is still true and he genuinely has very good knowledge in this area but he is not open minded and does not take an objective view.
Posters like CP and aggi are far better in that they have the same knowledge of this field but go in search of the truth and will change their views based on different and new info becoming available
No link ChesterChester Perry wrote: ↑Wed Feb 09, 2022 9:15 pmIt is very complex - I have spent the last few days writing a section for the corrected article under the heading The Takeover Acquisition: Separating folklore from fact it is over 2000 words long
Why would i need to make it up, why not try to be as smart as you think you are & read his articles & quotes on the deal.
It means any new investor would have to be in VSL not the club, that helps the ALK Three retain overall control, but perhaps more importantly allows any new investor to derive the same benefits and gains from ownership - real partnership. Not necessarily bailing them out like Checketts partner was at Real Salt LakeDCWat wrote: ↑Wed Feb 09, 2022 9:11 pmSorry if it’s already been covered on the shareholder thread (or elsewhere) but (and appreciating that our position has become more precarious since the offer) why would ALK be offering to purchase additional shares now?
In a position where our income could reduce significantly, what is the benefit to ALK or indeed the point of them purchasing additional shares?
Why commit to a £12m(?) outlay at this stage, to people likely not even thinking of their shares? Or, was there an obligation?
that is because it is not finished or published yet - I said I was working on it
No humble pie needed, its a complicated business and you did help me with the original bit I completely misread so thanksClaretPete001 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 09, 2022 9:18 pmI re-read it and realised as much - the position of the club could be much worse than I feared. And I already fear the worst
So, yes a bit of humble pie for me Mr Advocate....!
Burnley FC Holdings accounts for the year end 31st July 2021 are due to be filed at Companies House by 30th April 2022.GodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 09, 2022 8:26 pmThe club's to see if any debt has been loaded onto it.
I doubt we will see ALK's or Calders?