!

Rise from the ashes Lol.

option 1: Keep Dyche next four seasons if we are really lucky we will be mid table championship side - where we belong.
option 2: Young progressive manager yo-yo club always in the play offs some good cup runs for the next 5 seasons.

brexit wrote: ↑

Sun Apr 10, 2022 4:15 pm

Rise from the ashes Lol.

option 1: Keep Dyche next four seasons if we are really lucky we will be mid table championship side - where we belong.
option 2: Young progressive manager yo-yo club always in the play offs some good cup runs for the next 5 seasons.

What's a cup run?

Agree on a young progressive manager, and even if we had to endure a couple of seasons in the Championship, as long as we were rebuilding, and moulding a more youthful squad, I think must fans would tolerate that, similar to Bournemouth when they went down and moved some big names on, my worry is SD will revert to signing even more experienced pros, and that's the last thing we need next season, we're crying out for youth and creativity, not more old heads on large wages with no sell-on value.

I worry we will never get into the Premier league again,bigger clubs then us can't do it why do we assume we can. How do we rise ? Wholesale squad changes and fresh tactics either with or without Dyche.

Poor man’s Ablueclaret.

With difficulty.

We all know how football works, as the rest of society. WITH MONEY. We are a poor Club with lots of heart and no cash.

It would be an interesting exercise to view the Premier League, and even Leagues below, with the cost of their squad alongside.

I'll start with Citeh. £1billion plus squad. Compete with that !

Start by scoring sitters like the one Maxwel missed on Saturday. We might have won had he notched there.

Let's just stay up this season.

Bordeauxclaret wrote: ↑

Sun Apr 10, 2022 10:12 pm

Poor man’s Ablueclaret.

Ouch!

No ashes here.

Stayingup wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 11, 2022 12:55 pm

Start by scoring sitters like the one Maxwel missed on Saturday. We might have won had he notched there.

Yep he's missed a couple of sitters recently, mind you he's not alone in that, Jay and Weghorst have been equally guilty of not being clinical, and as poor as we've been playing it's moments like those that can make the difference in winning games or not.

I know it's not original but how about we win the next game and see what happens after that. We have earned 10 points from the last 9 games and if we can repeat that ratio in the last 8 games and add one more win we might stay up

The sad truth is relegation could be a blessing.
We need to get rid of a lot of older players, we couldn't afford to, or risk it if we stayed up, too many players to replace in one window.
In the championship if we can build a team around our newer, younger players, blood a few youngsters, and buy a couple of midfielders, we could potentially come up a lot stronger than if we stayed up.

Of course losing any of our 'star players' could affect us negatively , it depends who wants to go, and who wants to fight for the cause.

With Dyche as the manager we are only going in one direction. He has had his day at this club.
We will not get promoted with him as manger I am sure of that. If you can’t motivate your players to try and stay up how can we expect him to motivate players in a promotion battle?
The problem is Dyche will be here for 3 more years at least and Dyche knows it. The fact is we can’t afford to sack him. We are in debt and honestly, look at Bolton, Derby etc. and baring a miracle before we known it we will be in the position. You can kiss Dyche and paces rear ends all you want but them are the facts and the don’t change.
The next decade for Burnley football club looks bleak.

Elizabeth wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 11, 2022 7:18 pm

I know it's not original but how about we win the next game and see what happens after that. We have earned 10 points from the last 9 games and if we can repeat that ratio in the last 8 games and add one more win we might stay up

On the assumption that no other club in the bottom 4 does at least as well if not better?
That's a very thin straw to grab on to.

Can’t argue with that bill.

A spell in the Championship would not be a bad thing for me

Take the Captaincy away from Joe Root

Some proper reactive, bedwetting going on here.

Suggestion we can't bounce back is nonsense, Norwich amd Watford bounced right back, Fulham will bounce back this season most likely with Bournemouth who will have taken 2 seasons to do it.

Suggestion we can't do it with Dyche is nonsense too. He's done it once before, for one. Farke did it at Norwich last season.

The Championship could be a good reset opportunity that allows us to finally move on some of the old guard that are on high wages and refresh with younger players on the way up. Dyche can do that as he showed in our last promotions but maybe needs the push from Pace, from a business prospective, to do it.

I really can't fathom how anyone can think relegation is a good thing to happen.

We need to hit the bottom first, what is to stop us doing a Sunderland?

Oh dear oh dear, they’re all out tonight

Relegation good thing / bad thing. It’s irrelevant.. ….. it’s happening. We’ve been clutching at straws since Christmas, hoping that A loses this game, B gets a draw at best in that game. FACTS are we can’t even help ourself. We are so poor it’s shocking, it really doesn’t matter what your view on relegation is, but you WILL have to deal with it.

Have we been relegated yet? Only when we are relegated are we relegated and if we don't get relegated there will be some whining on here then.

CnBtruntru wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 12, 2022 8:31 pm

Have we been relegated yet? Only when we are relegated are we relegated and if we don't get relegated there will be some whining on here then.

Well of course not,the season ain’t over, and mathematically we can stay up. We won’t, but dream on mate.

Colburn_Claret wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 11, 2022 8:20 pm

The sad truth is relegation could be a blessing.
We need to get rid of a lot of older players, we couldn't afford to, or risk it if we stayed up, too many players to replace in one window.
In the championship if we can build a team around our newer, younger players, blood a few youngsters, and buy a couple of midfielders, we could potentially come up a lot stronger than if we stayed up.

Of course losing any of our 'star players' could affect us negatively , it depends who wants to go, and who wants to fight for the cause.

Some good points there CC, but can we trust SD to ditch the old guard? and exactly how much do we have to rebuild in the event of the drop?

Definitely agree we have to lower the average age of our squad, and the likes of Collins and Roberts should be ready to step in after a season of fleeting appearances, perhaps some of the development squad can make their case for at least a place on the bench, and surely we'll sign at least 1 new CM in the summer won't we.

It’s likely that if we go down then we’ll sign older, experienced Pro’s - it worked for us last time so no reason to think we’ll do anything differently this time.

SalisburyClaret wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 12, 2022 10:01 pm

It’s likely that if we go down then we’ll sign older, experienced Pro’s - it worked for us last time so no reason to think we’ll do anything differently this time.

True! but the problem then is if we do make it back to the Prem we'll still have exactly the same issues as we're facing now, an ageing squad on big contracts with little resale value, I simply don't see how ALK'S model can work unless we develop and sell players on now and then.

Mattster wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 12, 2022 2:15 pm

Some proper reactive, bedwetting going on here.

Suggestion we can't bounce back is nonsense, Norwich amd Watford bounced right back, Fulham will bounce back this season most likely with Bournemouth who will have taken 2 seasons to do it.

Suggestion we can't do it with Dyche is nonsense too. He's done it once before, for one. Farke did it at Norwich last season.

The Championship could be a good reset opportunity that allows us to finally move on some of the old guard that are on high wages and refresh with younger players on the way up. Dyche can do that as he showed in our last promotions but maybe needs the push from Pace, from a business prospective, to do it.

Has any team ever done it with as big of a rebuild as we have?

Change our name to Phoenix United.

tiger76 wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 12, 2022 10:11 pm

True! but the problem then is if we do make it back to the Prem we'll still have exactly the same issues as we're facing now, an ageing squad on big contracts with little resale value, I simply don't see how ALK'S model can work unless we develop and sell players on now and then.

That’s it - we could easily get caught in a loop and end up yo-yoing. At some point we need to break the cycle but that needs to happen gradually rather than a sudden wholesale change which would be too big a gamble

SalisburyClaret wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 12, 2022 10:01 pm

It’s likely that if we go down then we’ll sign older, experienced Pro’s - it worked for us last time so no reason to think we’ll do anything differently this time.

Ah yes, those famous "older, experienced pros" like Andre Gray (24), James Tarkowski (23), Matthew Lowton (26), Tendayi Darikwa (23).

We did sign Paul Robinson (36) and Lloyd Dyer (33) for the bench, Barton (32) was the next oldest. Then you had the likes of Vossen (26) and Hennings (27) who flopped along with Chris Long (20).

Average age of 27 for the signings made for the first team. And it's worth noting of the two oldest Robinson didn't make a single appearance and Dyer made 3 sub appearances.

Newcastleclaret93 wrote: ↑

Wed Apr 13, 2022 4:34 am

Has any team ever done it with as big of a rebuild as we have?

Last time we went down we lost Jason Shackell (our captain), Danny Ings (our top goalscorer) and Kieran Trippier (our best player).

And Fulham this season lost 5 of their regular first 11 in the PL in Zambo-Anguissa, Lookman, Areola, Joachim Andersen, Ola Aina plus Josh Maja who started half the games he was there. So half their starting squad left and they've bounced back comfortably.

Mattster wrote: ↑

Wed Apr 13, 2022 10:26 am

Last time we went down we lost Jason Shackell (our captain), Danny Ings (our top goalscorer) and Kieran Trippier (our best player).

And that is similar to losing 11 players in 2 months?

Newcastleclaret93 wrote: ↑

Wed Apr 13, 2022 11:09 am

And that is similar to losing 11 players in 2 months?

So all 11 out of contract players are leaving?
Do you have definite knowlege of that or are you presuming?

Targetman wrote: ↑

Wed Apr 13, 2022 11:13 am

So all 11 out of contract players are leaving?
Do you have definite knowlege of that or are you presuming?

is it a fact that right now them players are out of contract in 2 months yes or no?

Or are you presuming that some will be staying

Newcastleclaret93 wrote: ↑

Wed Apr 13, 2022 11:09 am

And that is similar to losing 11 players in 2 months?

Obviously more than that left but I was focusing on the key players.

How many that leave this Summer are regular starters? Cork? No. Barnes? No. Bardsley? No. Vydra? No. Pieters? No. Tarkowski? Yes. Rodriguez? Yes (recently). Lennon? Yes (recently).

Then say we sell McNeil, Weghorst and Cornet.

That's 4 regular starters with 2 kind of regular.

This also assumes all of those leave, 1 or 2 probably stay. I would hope we keep Jay and I can see Dyche trying to keep Pieters and one of McNeil, Weghorst or Cornet.

I think Mr Dyche is the best manager to get us back into the premier league, maybe not keep us there. Either way, it's a squad overhaul and I'd rather have a manager who has done it before, than take a risk.

Mattster wrote: ↑

Wed Apr 13, 2022 11:20 am

Obviously more than that left but I was focusing on the key players.

How many that leave this Summer are regular starters? Cork? No. Barnes? No. Bardsley? No. Vydra? No. Pieters? No. Tarkowski? Yes. Rodriguez? Yes (recently). Lennon? Yes (recently).

Then say we sell McNeil, Weghorst and Cornet.

That's 4 regular starters with 2 kind of regular.

This also assumes all of those leave, 1 or 2 probably stay. I would hope we keep Jay and I can see Dyche trying to keep Pieters and one of McNeil, Weghorst or Cornet.

But can’t you see how massive that is?

This is a team that has struggled for the last 18 months. To the point where we can’t even do the Dyche basics (IE keep clean sheets).

You take Tarks, Mee, McNeil, Weghorst, Cornet, Rodriguez, Lennon, Cork out of it and what we are we left with?

I genuinely believe the target for next season has got to be mid table. Give Dyche (or whoever is in charge) a realistic target and time to bed in. You would like to think our starting eleven has at least 5-6 fresh faces. That is a seriously big challenge for whoever comes in. I don’t think it’s fair for you to compare it to the likes of Fulham and Norwich

Newcastleclaret93 wrote: ↑

Wed Apr 13, 2022 11:25 am

But can’t you see how massive that is?

This is a team that has struggled for the last 18 months. To the point where we can’t even do the Dyche basics (IE keep clean sheets).

You take Tarks, Mee, McNeil, Weghorst, Cornet, Rodriguez, Lennon, Cork out of it and what we are we left with?

I genuinely believe the target for next season has got to be mid table. Give Dyche (or whoever is in charge) a realistic target and time to bed in. You would like to think our starting eleven has at least 5-6 fresh faces. That is a seriously big challenge for whoever comes in. I don’t think it’s fair for you to compare it to the likes of Fulham and Norwich

I can assure you the club wouldn’t be setting a mid-table target and nor would the vast majority of fans. That would be ridiculous lack of ambition.

taio wrote: ↑

Wed Apr 13, 2022 11:40 am

I can assure you the club wouldn’t be setting a mid-table target and nor would the vast majority of fans. That would be ridiculous lack of ambition.

Fair enough, I think that would be crazy ambitious though after the rebuild required

Newcastleclaret93 wrote: ↑

Wed Apr 13, 2022 11:25 am

But can’t you see how massive that is?

This is a team that has struggled for the last 18 months. To the point where we can’t even do the Dyche basics (IE keep clean sheets).

You take Tarks, Mee, McNeil, Weghorst, Cornet, Rodriguez, Lennon, Cork out of it and what we are we left with?

I genuinely believe the target for next season has got to be mid table. Give Dyche (or whoever is in charge) a realistic target and time to bed in. You would like to think our starting eleven has at least 5-6 fresh faces. That is a seriously big challenge for whoever comes in. I don’t think it’s fair for you to compare it to the likes of Fulham and Norwich

It's big but I don't think all of those leave.

I'm pretty sure we keep Mee. I'd be very surprised if we don't also keep Rodriguez, one of Lennon/Pieters and one of McNeil/Cornet/Weghorst.

So I anticipate we'd need to sign maybe 4 or 5 new starters - which isn't far off what we did last time and fewer changes to our starting lineup than Fulham needed to make this season, so not sure why you think that's an unfair comparison.

Mattster wrote: ↑

Wed Apr 13, 2022 12:03 pm

It's big but I don't think all of those leave.

I'm pretty sure we keep Mee. I'd be very surprised if we don't also keep Rodriguez, one of Lennon/Pieters and one of McNeil/Cornet/Weghorst.

So I anticipate we'd need to sign maybe 4 or 5 new starters - which isn't far off what we did last time and fewer changes to our starting lineup than Fulham needed to make this season, so not sure why you think that's an unfair comparison.

4 or 5 new starts but still leaves us with a squad of 18. I am expecting 9 out (Mee the only one to stay). Then 8 or 9 new faces in either from recruitment or the academy.

I think that takes it to the next level on from Fulham and Norwich.

Both them kept the cores of there squad for there promotion pushes.

Newcastleclaret93 wrote: ↑

Wed Apr 13, 2022 12:08 pm

4 or 5 new starts but still leaves us with a squad of 18. I am expecting 9 out (Mee the only one to stay). Then 8 or 9 new faces in either from recruitment or the academy.

I think that takes it to the next level on from Fulham and Norwich.

Both them kept the cores of there squad for there promotion pushes.

Did you not read the list of players I gave that left Fulham.

Areola, first choice keeper.
Andersen - best defender
Zambo-Anguissa - best midfielder
Lookman - best winger

On top of that Aina - first choice wingback, Loftus-Cheek - started the majority of games, Maja - started majority of games from when he joined.

How is that keeping the "core of there squad" if us having...

Pope
Roberts/Lowton-Collins-Mee-Taylor
Brownhill-Westwood

...is not?

Mattster wrote: ↑

Wed Apr 13, 2022 12:16 pm

Did you not read the list of players I gave that left Fulham.

Areola, first choice keeper.
Andersen - best defender
Zambo-Anguissa - best midfielder
Lookman - best winger

On top of that Aina - first choice wingback, Loftus-Cheek - started the majority of games, Maja - started majority of games from when he joined.

How is that keeping the "core of there squad" if us having...

Pope
Roberts/Lowton-Collins-Mee-Taylor
Brownhill-Westwood

...is not?

The majority of the players you listed were just loans, they kept the majority of the squad that got them promoted before.

The 6 players you listed genuinely concerns me going into the championship.

If you genuinely believe we will be chasing promotion next season does Dyche get sacked if mid table half way through?

If we stay up I expect us to seek to retain Mee, and possibly Lennon or Vydra purely as a stopgap to keep enough bodies. Maybe Pieters as an outside bet. We have a famously small squad.
If we drop, I think we are more likely to seek to retain more out of contract players for a year on the basis it buys time for the rebuild and they can possibly still do a job at that level. Tradeoff is we will lose more first teamers.
Lots of clubs will be looking at Pope and Cornet if we go, Weghorst may well have some suitors and McNeil certainly will even with his season form due to his age. It's also possible some clubs would look at Taylor or Roberts but I think we would expect to hold onto them.
If we stop up I expect us to retain Mee, if we don't I think we might struggle but still put up a good chance. I've seen stuff that we have a year option in our favour and expect us to take it if true.
If we drop I see us setting out to keep Mee, Rodriguez, Lennon, probably Pieters, possibly Cork and Vydra, probably none for more than a year offer which probably costs us Vydra given his age compared to the rest.
This leaves us to replace:
Tarkowski (will probably be Collins, definitely if Championship, meaning we need 2 backup CBs)
Long (2nd backup CB)
Bardsley (already have 2 RBs, can discount)
Stephens (nonentity, can discount but useful to have 4 CM options)
Barnes (past it, only need a backup striker)
Gudmundsson (would be surprised if we keep due to injury, requires a RM squad player)
Bear in mind if we don't retain the others it leaves us needing:
-2x PL squad striker/good championship striker
-PL backup midfield/ decent championship CM
-PL squad RM/ good championship RM
-PL backup LB/ decent championship LB

Assuming outgoing we're also looking at first choice LM, first choice LM/RM/ST (Corner), first choice striker, first choice goalkeeper.
This is before we even consider the central midfield which needs an upgrade anyway.
Worst case could be looking at needing to replace a first team GK, CB, LM, RM, 1-2 ST and backup CB, 2x CM, LB, 2x RM, 2x ST.
I think likely even with retention its first team GK, CB, LM, 1-2ST (Inc Cornet), backup CB, CM, ST, same CM as now.
That's still an ask and one that will weaken us.
Priority in the Championship I think unfortunately shifts therefore from replacing central midfield, to having to make do there, recruit 1-2 wingers and 1-3 strikers for the first team, and replenish our defensive backups. Goalkeeper wise we're probably looking at asking BPF to step up.

Newcastleclaret93 wrote: ↑

Wed Apr 13, 2022 12:21 pm

The majority of the players you listed were just loans, they kept the majority of the squad that got them promoted before.

The 6 players you listed genuinely concerns me going into the championship.

If you genuinely believe we will be chasing promotion next season does Dyche get sacked if mid table half way through?

They lost over half their favoured 11 from the season they went down, matters little if they were loans or not. And then you say it's OK because they had most of the players that got promoted the previous season (deemed not good enough to play regularly in the EPL) whilst our players that have kept us in the EPL for seasons are a worry to you in the Championship?

That defence would comfortably be one of, if not, the best in the Championship. As good of a core to build on as anything.

And I still don't agree with you that we only retain Mee.

Newcastleclaret93 wrote: ↑

Wed Apr 13, 2022 12:08 pm

4 or 5 new starts but still leaves us with a squad of 18. I am expecting 9 out (Mee the only one to stay). Then 8 or 9 new faces in either from recruitment or the academy.

I think that takes it to the next level on from Fulham and Norwich.

Both them kept the cores of there squad for there promotion pushes.

I'd be stunned if we only retained one of our out of contract players and wouldn't agree with it at all unless of course the other nine simply chose to leave.