• Some stats for our central midfield pairings

Posted: **Fri Apr 22, 2022 10:01 pm**

Had a quick post-it scribble, to look at points picked up by players and their respective combinations, in our 32 games so far, based on those players STARTING games:

Match outcomes and average points

Brownhill and Cork (LDWWDWWW)
2.13 (8)

Westwood and (Cork: LLDDLLD)
0.43 (7)

Westwood Brownhill (DLLDDWDDLDDLLLLWL)
0.76 (17)

Westwood Stephens (D)
1.00 (1)

Westwood, Cork and Brownhill (L)
0.00 (1)

Westwood 0.65 (26 starts)
Brownhill 1.15 (26)
Stephens 1.00* (1)
Cork 1.18 (16)

*only one start

Combinations:
4-4-2 x 31
4-5-1 x 1

Very interesting just how frequently the central midfield pairings were swapped around from one game to the next too.

Hopefully we’ve now found a settled pairing

Goals for and against (and cleansheets)
As of April 22nd 2022

Cork (14 starts)
for: (121131112) ave = 0.93 goals per start

against: (222233121) = 1.29 goals per start

Cleansheets = 4/14 games (28.57%)

Westwood (26 starts)
for: (1112231311131) = 0.81
against: (2131222113133112422221) = 1.62
Cleansheets = 4/26 (15.38%)

Brownhill (25 starts)
for: (112313131132) = 0.88
against: (213121131111242222) = 1.28

Cleansheets = 5/25 (20%)

Stephens (1 start)
for: 0
against: 0
Cleansheets = 1 (100%)

Jack Cork…

And on Jack Cork, who I make absolutely no apologies for singling out…these are the 14 teams he has started against….

Brighton (h)
Liverpool (a)
Man City (a)
Southampton (a)
Wolves (a)
West Ham (h)
Man Utd (a)
Leeds (a)
Brighton (a)
Tottenham (h)
Crystal Palace (a)
Man City (h)
West Ham (a)
Southampton (h)

Jack Cork has started ONLY TWO games against sides in the bottom TEN (Leeds and Crystal Palace)

Jack Cork has started THIRTEEN games against clubs in the top TEN!!!!

Posted: **Fri Apr 22, 2022 10:04 pm**

If Jack Cork were 25 years old and permanently fit we'd be comfortable mid-table and Sean Dyche still at the helm.

Posted: **Fri Apr 22, 2022 10:04 pm**

Interesting stuff jdrobbo

Posted: **Fri Apr 22, 2022 10:11 pm**

Very interesting, however the framework like the computer in Little Britain said NO.

Posted: **Fri Apr 22, 2022 10:31 pm**

Further stats added above….

Posted: **Fri Apr 22, 2022 10:37 pm**

Those Jack Cork stats are most illuminating.

Might end up being one of Dyche's (and our) biggest regret in his time here that he used Jack Cork so fleetingly this season; preferring the contribution of Westwood despite the evidence to the contrary. He was big into his stats on performance as well.

Posted: **Fri Apr 22, 2022 10:43 pm**

I’m absolutely convinced that if Cork had featured in more than two games against sides in the bottom half (naturally, Aston Villa are excluded here), then we’d surely have a significantly more healthy points total.

Posted: **Fri Apr 22, 2022 11:19 pm**

Good stats. Good job too. They are now the only available senior players in that position at the football club.

It was a relief last night that Brownhill came through without a booking and now can’t be suspended under the totting up rule.

Hopefully they can both stay fit.

Edit: I forgot Stephens. That probably says something about him or me.

Posted: **Fri Apr 22, 2022 11:35 pm**

Those of us who live and breathe stats for a job have been baffled about how Dyche didn’t see what was in front of his nose. I’d like to see the goals scored and conceded alongside those numbers. I suspect Cork screens the back four with a bit more nous than Brownhill who is better raiding forward.

There are of course other factors, e.g. on Sunday Wolves have had 2 weeks rest and we have had 2 days. But over a run of games the stats start not to lie.

Back to stats (my big passion, more than the Clarets sadly, and sad is the key word). One of the keys is not to be looking at the wrong stats. Football clubs will be overloaded with stats from every angle. They obviously knew this about Cork and Brownhill but something else persuaded them in another direction. We aren’t sighted on what this is so can’t definitively say it is or is not valid. But my hunch is to keep it simple - play players who when they play, we win more often than lose.

Posted: **Sat Apr 23, 2022 12:00 am**

jdrobbo wrote: ↑
Fri Apr 22, 2022 10:43 pm
I’m absolutely convinced that if Cork had featured in more than two games against sides in the bottom half (naturally, Aston Villa are excluded here), then we’d surely have a significantly more healthy points total.

Me too.

Sadly we might’ve worked this out too late

Posted: **Sat Apr 23, 2022 12:02 am**

I forgot to add - great work in that OP.

Posted: **Sat Apr 23, 2022 12:09 am**

So, theoretically, if we’d played Cork x Brownhill for the 11 games we played Westwood x Brownhill, we’d have 11 points more and we’d all be on the beach by now.

(I know this is a simplistic view and Jack was out for quite a bit)

Posted: **Sat Apr 23, 2022 12:46 am**

Goals for and against now added

Posted: **Sat Apr 23, 2022 12:47 am**

CrosspoolClarets wrote: ↑
Fri Apr 22, 2022 11:35 pm
I’d like to see the goals scored and conceded alongside those numbers. I suspect Cork screens the back four with a bit more nous than Brownhill who is better raiding forward.

Now added above

Posted: **Sat Apr 23, 2022 4:55 am**

He makes short, intelligent passes and keeps us moving forward.
We look better, the forwards are more involved and the results are better........what's not to like?

The Westwood hook forward stopped working long ago.
That's where Dyche messed up.........too stubborn to see what was right under his nose.

Posted: **Sat Apr 23, 2022 6:17 am**

Just to add to that, the only game the Brownhill/Cork partnership lost was Liverpool away, where we also put it a decent performance.

As well, all of Brownhill’s goal contributions (4 assists and 1 goal) have come in that partnership.

Posted: **Sat Apr 23, 2022 7:58 am**

Don’t forget - zero assists for 3 seasons - just to add a bit of balance

Posted: **Sat Apr 23, 2022 9:06 am**

I've been very critical of Cork previously, and have generally been a fan of Westwood. But this season its been pretty clear to me that Brownhill/Cork offers more as a pairing than others do

Posted: **Sat Apr 23, 2022 9:13 am**

agreenwood wrote: ↑
Fri Apr 22, 2022 11:19 pm

Edit: I forgot Stephens. That probably says something about him or me.

Most likely outcome statistically is both

Posted: **Sat Apr 23, 2022 9:19 am**

SalisburyClaret wrote: ↑
Sat Apr 23, 2022 7:58 am
Don’t forget - zero assists for 3 seasons - just to add a bit of balance

While true, you are completely missing the point and purpose of Jack Cork’s role in the team with this statement.

Posted: **Sat Apr 23, 2022 9:23 am**

No argument about Corks’ abilities my concern would be him stringing a run of good performances together when we need him at his very best. Everything crossed he manages.

Posted: **Sat Apr 23, 2022 9:37 am**

It’s a good point. I’ve said all season that we need to upgrade our central midfield and that for me, would likely include Jack Cork. However, right now, I believe he is the best we have in there and that he brings better performances

Is he capable of poor performances? Yes, definitely.

Is he André Pirlo? Definitely not

Will we lose games with him in the side? Probably, but I doubt we’ll lose as many!

Just look at the teams he has come against, yet he still has a points gain that’s much more impressive.

Like you said, can he do it in a string of games? I suspect he can but he may need to be managed in that sense.

Posted: **Sat Apr 23, 2022 9:44 am**

Tricky Trevor wrote: ↑
Sat Apr 23, 2022 9:23 am
No argument about Corks’ abilities my concern would be him stringing a run of good performances together when we need him at his very best. Everything crossed he manages.

I agree here (and with Rowls). One thing the stats show is that Westwood was seen as the senior player we need to get on the field (and the fact that Jackson started him against West Ham supports that it wasnt aimply Dyche being stubborn) so there's something driving that that isn't seen in the stats above. Maybe it's that Westy has been our best midfielder over the last couple of seasons and the belief was he would drive that through this season too?

Posted: **Sat Apr 23, 2022 9:47 am**

Stats can be made to show many things, but on this occasion they show what most people had worked out for themselves.
I feel sorry for Westy, because although I was one of those calling for him to be dropped, who knows how he would have fared if allowed to play with more freedom. Fingers crossed he makes a full recovery.
There have been times over the last couple of years where I have called for Jack to be dropped as well, but he did appear rejuvenated, when he got back from injury in the middle of last season. He's showing the same form at the moment, and we are going to need him if we have a hope of survival.

Posted: **Sat Apr 23, 2022 10:14 am**

Very interesting stats John but I think there are also other factors to consider, such as, our front 2 pairing in each of those games. For, example Wout is much better with the ball played into his feet than Wood was. His link up play with our other forwards and midfield has allowed us to adopt a much improved style of play. Moving Maxwell to the wing has also helped because it’s given JayRod more freedom to express himself and he’s a very intelligent player.Also, one of the opposition centre halves has been more preoccupied in supporting his full back to defend against Max which has provided our midfield pairing with more options and a more pleasing style of play from a spectators perspective. However, I appreciate your sentiment and personally have always been a big fan of Jack’s. Also, Brownhill is a much improved player this season but that shouldn’t be seen as detrimental to Ashley who has contributed much especially playing against the BIG teams, of whom none, have given us a hammering this season apart from Chelsea who managed to score 3 in 8 minutes.

Posted: **Sat Apr 23, 2022 10:40 am**

nig1954 wrote: ↑
Sat Apr 23, 2022 10:14 am
Very interesting stats John but I think there are also other factors to consider, such as, our front 2 pairing in each of those games. For, example Wout is much better with the ball played into his feet than Wood was. His link up play with our other forwards and midfield has allowed us to adopt a much improved style of play. Moving Maxwell to the wing has also helped because it’s given JayRod more freedom to express himself and he’s a very intelligent player.Also, one of the opposition centre halves has been more preoccupied in supporting his full back to defend against Max which has provided our midfield pairing with more options and a more pleasing style of play from a spectators perspective. However, I appreciate your sentiment and personally have always been a big fan of Jack’s. Also, Brownhill is a much improved player this season but that shouldn’t be seen as detrimental to Ashley who has contributed much especially playing against the BIG teams, of whom none, have given us a hammering this season apart from Chelsea who managed to score 3 in 8 minutes.

Absolutely. You’re completely right. I’m not big on stats, I was just bored last night and have been curious for quite some time. I know what I see but even I was shocked at those findings. I would say though that another clear observation is that Jack Cork gets other players playing more effectively.

Posted: **Sat Apr 23, 2022 11:01 am**

It was a very interesting observation and my comments weren’t intended as a criticism. After the Leeds away fixture I thought our season was on a downward slope. However, the players efforts over the last few games have changed my outlook. They’re clearly aligned and up for the fight.The change of personnel has contributed to this and I’m now looking forward to the run in to the end of the season as I think this group of players are capable of getting sufficient points from our remaining games to secure premier league football for another season. Also, the no nonsense approach of the interim manager is refreshing as he trusts the players and gives them a platform from which they have freedom to express themselves and I firmly believe they’re committed to a man to ensure we survive for another season. Really looking forward to Sunday

Posted: **Sat Apr 23, 2022 11:03 am**

nig1954 wrote: ↑
Sat Apr 23, 2022 11:01 am
It was a very interesting observation and my comments weren’t intended as a criticism. After the Leeds away fixture I thought our season was on a downward slope. However, the players efforts over the last few games have changed my outlook. They’re clearly aligned and up for the fight.The change of personnel has contributed to this and I’m now looking forward to the run in to the end of the season as I think this group of players are capable of getting sufficient points from our remaining games to secure premier league football for another season. Also, the no nonsense approach of the interim manager is refreshing as he trusts the players and gives them a platform from which they have freedom to express themselves and I firmly believe they’re committed to a man to ensure we survive for another season. Really looking forward to Sunday

Didn’t take at as criticism: I completely see and rationalise with your comments

Posted: **Sat Apr 23, 2022 11:25 am**

RVclaret wrote: ↑
Sat Apr 23, 2022 9:19 am
While true, you are completely missing the point and purpose of Jack Cork’s role in the team with this statement.

No I was adding some balance to how you can evaluate the performance of a midfielder

Posted: **Sat Apr 23, 2022 11:55 am**

Thank you jdrobbo for adding those goals for and against. This confirms my instinct that it is the goals conceded that Cork predominantly helps. That space in between our lines is space that opponents can run riot in, I feel Cork patrols that area better than Brownhill.

We know we are shipping more, in fact we are shipping more against the bottom sides than the top which I posted last week. Maybe that isn’t strength of opposition, maybe it relates to who we selected for those games looking at Cork’s fixtures above? That position appears key.

Posted: **Sat Apr 23, 2022 11:59 am**

SalisburyClaret wrote: ↑
Sat Apr 23, 2022 11:25 am
No I was adding some balance to how you can evaluate the performance of a midfielder

Well it depends what the role of that midfielder is. Thiago for Liverpool, look at his career goal / assist stats. For a supposed world class midfielder (which he absolutely is) his goal and assist record is pretty shocking. Not saying Cork, or any of our players, are anywhere near that level but there are many factors to consider. Here we are objectively looking at team performance, points per games and goals scored/conceded.

Posted: **Sat Apr 23, 2022 12:01 pm**

CrosspoolClarets wrote: ↑
Sat Apr 23, 2022 11:55 am
Thank you jdrobbo for adding those goals for and against. This confirms my instinct that it is the goals conceded that Cork predominantly helps. That space in between our lines is space that opponents can run riot in, I feel Cork patrols that area better than Brownhill.

We know we are shipping more, in fact we are shipping more against the bottom sides than the top which I posted last week. Maybe that isn’t strength of opposition, maybe it relates to who we selected for those games looking at Cork’s fixtures above? That position appears key.

A pleasure

Posted: **Sat Apr 23, 2022 12:26 pm**

Do just want to put a word in for Westwood here. Its quite clear (well to me anyway) that the litle dinks and blind balls were how he was instructed to play. Ash is a much better passer of the ball IMHO and I think could of done very well in the last two games, of course that's something we'll never know now sadly. Westwood is much more of a playmaker than either Brownhill or Cork and could of seen him florish a bit more under the current temp manager.

Get well soon Ash

Posted: **Sat Apr 23, 2022 12:28 pm**

I kept wondering where his legs had gone to, it was mentioned that often. It appears that he must just have misplaced them, they seem to have been found, wherever they were.

Posted: **Sat Apr 23, 2022 12:47 pm**

buzzclarets79 wrote: ↑
Sat Apr 23, 2022 12:26 pm
Do just want to put a word in for Westwood here. Its quite clear (well to me anyway) that the litle dinks and blind balls were how he was instructed to play. Ash is a much better passer of the ball IMHO and I think could of done very well in the last two games, of course that's something we'll never know now sadly. Westwood is much more of a playmaker than either Brownhill or Cork and could of seen him florish a bit more under the current temp manager.

Get well soon Ash

My thoughts too. Westwood obviously carried out his instructions to a tee. I would have dropped him for Cork a few games ago as he was going through a poor spell and his direct play wasn’t yielding results. Interestingly we created a good chance against Soton from the same ball played by Roberts though.

It’s naive to think that the analysts at the club don’t know these statistics - but what they will know is broadly how much Cork contributes to those wins or defeats. For a club that has won just 5 all season the sample size is far too small to attribute a large part of those wins to the midfield pairing. Particularly as Westwood and Brownhill were the midfield pairing for two of those wins.

I expect we’d have won just as comfortably on Thursday with Westwood and Brownhill. Having said that, I’m happy to have Cork back in the side - he adds some composure and much needed calmness. Let’s not forget though that it wasn’t long ago since ‘his legs had gone’, and it’s likely that we’ll go on another poor run of form with him in the side at some point.

Posted: **Sat Apr 23, 2022 12:58 pm**

Cheeky request JDRobbo but would love to see Charlie Taylor be Erik Pieters too. I’d expect they will tell us we should pick EP when both fit, despite him being less pleasing on the eye / less exciting to watch.

UTC

Posted: **Sat Apr 23, 2022 1:03 pm**

The issue isn’t Westwood, it’s Brownhill who doesn’t have the nous to anticipate and screen the defence. He’s good rampaging forward conversely. I would agree that Westwood was following instructions with his channel balls.

Posted: **Sat Apr 23, 2022 1:16 pm**

A counterpoint to this is up to the Brighton (a) game we hadn't won a single game with a midfield that didn't include Ashley Westwood since the start of the 18/19 season (13 games, drawing 3, losing 10).

But I agree we should have continued starting Cork and Brownhill beyond Spurs.

Posted: **Sat Apr 23, 2022 4:05 pm**

CrosspoolClarets wrote: ↑
Sat Apr 23, 2022 1:03 pm
The issue isn’t Westwood, it’s Brownhill who doesn’t have the nous to anticipate and screen the defence. He’s good rampaging forward conversely. I would agree that Westwood was following instructions with his channel balls.

Got to agree. I was pleased to see Brownhill benched at West Ham, I think he's gives the ball away far too easily. In his time with us, I can count his good games on one hand, but I really hope he can step up to the mark for our run in.

Posted: **Sat Apr 23, 2022 4:11 pm**

I'd be interested to see how this boards view our 3 midfielders, I can't judge Stephens as not seen enough of him to form an opinion.

Westwood:- Playmaker. Sits, gets the ball and can pick a pass, personally the best passer of the 3 listed

Brownhill:- Box to Box man, gets up and down in both boxes and puts a foot in

Cork:- Sits more as a DM, breaks up play and plays simple short pass to more creative player. Job is to break up attacks

Posted: **Sat Apr 23, 2022 6:21 pm**

Mattster wrote: ↑
Sat Apr 23, 2022 1:16 pm
A counterpoint to this is up to the Brighton (a) game we hadn't won a single game with a midfield that didn't include Ashley Westwood since the start of the 18/19 season (13 games, drawing 3, losing 10).

But I agree we should have continued starting Cork and Brownhill beyond Spurs.

Agree. Wish we had Westwood as the option still. His injury weakens us

Posted: **Sat Apr 23, 2022 7:03 pm**

Stop up or go down, I would still like to see an upgrade on Westwood, Stephens,Cork as central midfielders for next season. This is our weak area, though I have to say Cork and Brownhill are performing much better outside of Dyche’s framework.

Posted: **Sat Apr 23, 2022 7:23 pm**

Jack is a big favourite of mine. I thought he played very well vs Southampton.
Dont forget he also was here during Brian Laws days.

I am however curious if the miles he used to cover are now less than they were?

UTC

Posted: **Sat Apr 23, 2022 7:29 pm**

With a stint elsewhere in between...

Posted: **Sun Apr 24, 2022 4:05 pm**

Jack Cork and Josh Brownhill… 2.00 points per game now.

Just saying…

Posted: **Sun Apr 24, 2022 9:06 pm**

These stats probably over amplify the distinction between our midfielders - Westwood hasn't become a terrible player overnight or even in the last 12 months - but, for me, they do highlight the fact that with Cork and McNeil in the same team, we're far, far, far better equipped to keep the ball - and as others have said, the balance between Cork and Brownhill is far better -and not only because Cork holds a bit deeper and mops up defensively.

I think someone has noted on another thread that Cork recycles the ball simply and efficiently. He does. He feeds the full backs better than any of our other midfielders and that helps us rebuild attacks (and draw pressure when we're on the back foot). But more than that, he also looks forward more than he gets credit for, and when he does, he plays to feet.

I didn't see today's game, but I did listen to it, but I suspect that even if we weren't as good as on Thursday this will have continued to influence our play. In each of the past 3 games, we've deployed 3 players ahead of Cork who very much like the ball to feet, and are comfortable receiving with their back to goal or on the half turn in pockets of space: Rodriguez and Weghorst (who have been alternating like Pistons), and McNeil. Certainly on Thursday they provided a focal point for Cork's passing (as well as others because by recycling the ball Cork opens up the channels for those others to also pass forwards). Now that in turn has done something for Brownhill, by allowing him to show that actually, he's got a lot to add to our attacking game and is more than just a destroyer. Brownhill is quick (very quick) and to date we've only really seen that when he's been covering defensively. That's because under Dyche, and alongside Westwood, Brownhill was no doubt instructed to stay a bit deeper - but also the absence of someone like Cork to make us tick meant that we rarely got the ball in but in any event we very rarely set up the sort of opportunity for him to burst beyond that to my mind exploits his greatest attributes. By getting the ball in to feet up the park suddenly we're giving him the base to show that he's a very very good exponent of third-man runs - and when he gets into those positions he invariably finds a pass.

With Cornet and Brownhill deployed as the two men who can break the line, the whole balance looks better. At times on Thursday we essentially ended up in a 4-1-4-1 shape with Rodriguez in particular dropping back to complete that attacking quintet and I daresay the idea today was similar with Vydra. Suddenly, the fact that McNeil doesn't naturally make runs in behind like Cornet doesn't matter so much - because Brownhill is doing, and it actually helps if McNeil holds goalside when he does. Of course, provided someone holds up the counter-attack temporarily, Brownhill is so quick and so fit that he can back himself to be back in the defensive line before the attack develops too far.

I'm sure the balance today was disrupted a bit by the fact Cornet makes those out to in runs better than Rodriguez will, but I imagine the same general principles will have applied. Bringing Cork into the team, and allowing McNeil and Weghorst in particular to get the ball into feet between the lines is a relatively minor tweak, but it completely changes what we're trying to do in the opposition half. It's both better to watch and more effective. And given what a spectacularly good and astute manager Dyche was, the fact he didn't identify it and go with it is what he himself might term a headscratcher.

Posted: **Mon Apr 25, 2022 9:57 am**

Updated:

Westwood and (Cork: LLDDLLD)
0.43 (7)

Brownhill Cork (LDWWDWW)
2.00 (7)

Westwood Brownhill (DLLDDWDDLDDLLLLWL)
0.76 (17)

Westwood Stephens (D)
1.00 (1)

Westwood, Cork and Brownhill (L)
0.00 (1)

Westwood 0.65 (26 starts)
Brownhill 1.08 (25)
Stephens 1.00* (1)
Cork 1.13 (15)

Brighton (h)
Liverpool (a)
Man City (a)
Southampton (a)
Wolves (a)
West Ham (h)
Man Utd (a)
Leeds (a)
Brighton (a)
Tottenham (h)
Crystal Palace (a)
Man City (h)
West Ham (a)
Southampton (h)
Wolves (h)

Jack Cork has started ONLY TWO games against sides in the bottom TEN (Leeds and Crystal Palace)

Jack Cork has started FOURTEEN games against clubs in the top TEN!!!!

Posted: **Mon Apr 25, 2022 10:02 am**

Quite simple, put a cork in it

Indeed.

Posted: **Mon Apr 25, 2022 1:24 pm**

The stats really bring home what is clear to anyone with eyes - we are a better team with Cork in it, plugging (sorry) the hole in front of defence. Does the dirty work none of the other midfielders can, keeps the ball as well as anyone in our team, knows when to make a foul. I kind of understood why SD felt Westwood-Brownhill was worth persisting with - for a bit, at least - but there was absolutely no excuses for reverting to it after Westwood caught Covid and the team suddenly looked functional in his absence. That was probably the single decision that cost him the job more than anything else.

Agree with those noting Westwood is a better passer than we have seen this season and the endless channel balls were simply following instructions.

Posted: **Sat Apr 30, 2022 5:05 pm**

17 points out of a possible 24 with a central midfield of…

Jack Cork and Josh Brownhill

2.13 points per game

Some stats for our central midfield pairings

Some stats for our central midfield pairings

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