• Burnley Football Club

Posted: **Fri Apr 29, 2022 8:40 am**

Just kicking off the thread to discuss the club's accounts for the accounting period ended 31st July 2021.

I feel it's about time we moved on from the original takeover thread, never mind that some want to use that thread to debate their knowledge of NFTs.

Maybe today is the day that the accounts will be filed with Companies House. Or, maybe they will be filed but not viewable until after the bank holiday weekend.

UTC

Posted: **Fri Apr 29, 2022 8:42 am**

I’d just like to know what a NFT is….

Posted: **Fri Apr 29, 2022 8:45 am**

bobinho wrote: ↑
Fri Apr 29, 2022 8:42 am
I’d just like to know what a NFT is….

There are others also asking that question. No one will learn much about NFTs on this thread.

Posted: **Fri Apr 29, 2022 8:48 am**

Exciting times!

Posted: **Fri Apr 29, 2022 8:50 am**

Just hope its not the first signs of the concerns many have about the new ownership.

Posted: **Fri Apr 29, 2022 9:16 am**

So today could be the day where we get actual facts rather than agenda driven opinions based on agenda driven articles.

Posted: **Fri Apr 29, 2022 9:18 am**

I'm looking forward to the Chester Perry/Claret Pete/aggi contributions to this thread

Posted: **Fri Apr 29, 2022 9:21 am**

Let me be the first cynic....

This will only be the first 6 months of the new ownership. It takes 2 or 3 years to really begin to see if there are longer term trends emerging.

The accounts will be part of group accounting and I guess most things will be in the holding accounts and then re-charged as management fees, which may not be in this set of accounts.

We should see the £60 million and the interest fees but I don't think we will see too much else. I suspect there will have been an awful lot of accounting activity on the 1st of August 2021.

Paul will use them to re-assure everyone, and the board will settle back into pondering just how beautiful the football will be under the new manager and whether we should become the Ajax of Lancashire based upon the profits from Ai software someone else owns.

Exciting times

UTC.

Posted: **Fri Apr 29, 2022 9:26 am**

Lancasterclaret wrote: ↑
Fri Apr 29, 2022 9:18 am
I'm looking forward to the Chester Perry/Claret Pete/aggi contributions to this thread

Yes I can’t wait for more of ClaretPete’s doom forecasting, give it to me!

Posted: **Fri Apr 29, 2022 9:30 am**

RVclaret wrote: ↑
Fri Apr 29, 2022 9:26 am
Yes I can’t wait for more of ClaretPete’s doom forecasting, give it to me!

Ignoring experts because we don't want to hear bad news is kinda a thing we really want to avoid one would think*

*this doesn't mean it will be bad news btw!

Posted: **Fri Apr 29, 2022 9:30 am**

bobinho wrote: ↑
Fri Apr 29, 2022 8:42 am
I’d just like to know what a NFT is….

New Fangled Tat.

Posted: **Fri Apr 29, 2022 9:36 am**

ClaretPete001 wrote: ↑
Fri Apr 29, 2022 9:21 am
Let me be the first cynic....

This will only be the first 6 months of the new ownership. It takes 2 or 3 years to really begin to see if there are longer term trends emerging.

The accounts will be part of group accounting and I guess most things will be in the holding accounts and then re-charged as management fees, which may not be in this set of accounts.

We should see the £60 million and the interest fees but I don't think we will see too much else. I suspect there will have been an awful lot of accounting activity on the 1st of August 2021.

Paul will use them to re-assure everyone, and the board will settle back into pondering just how beautiful the football will be under the new manager and whether we should become the Ajax of Lancashire based upon the profits from Ai software someone else owns.

Exciting times

UTC.

Hi Pete, strictly in the interest of accuracy I'd like to point out that the accounts for the year end 31st July 2021 will cover 7 months (plus a day or two, who's counting) under the new ownership.

It will be our first opportunity to see how the balance sheet has changed. Of course, it will also cover the season when there were no fans attending the games, bar the Liverpool game at the end of the season. If memory serves correctly, weren't tickets awarded on a ballot for that game?

We should also look out for what is said about related party transactions.

And, we should also look out for all the post-balance sheet events, which, if the accounts are signed-off by Alan Pace on 28th April 2022 - as he has done for the dormant BFC Women Ltd accounts - should bring us bang up to date with the departure of Sean Dyche.

OK, go on then, I'll also end this post with...

Exciting times.

Posted: **Fri Apr 29, 2022 9:39 am**

Lancasterclaret wrote: ↑
Fri Apr 29, 2022 9:30 am
Ignoring experts because we don't want to hear bad news is kinda a thing we really want to avoid one would think*

*this doesn't mean it will be bad news btw!

1. Not sure Pete is an expert 2. Everything he posts is with an agenda against ALK 3. I’d rather ignore that kinda stuff.

Aggi, Chester and Paul are far more balanced, but whatever floats your boat!

Posted: **Fri Apr 29, 2022 9:46 am**

RVclaret wrote: ↑
Fri Apr 29, 2022 9:39 am
1. Not sure Pete is an expert 2. Everything he posts is with an agenda against ALK 3. I’d rather ignore that kinda stuff.

Aggi, Chester and Paul are far more balanced, but whatever floats your boat!

I think Chester and Pete are a nice balance, and Paul is someone who looks at stuff from a position in which he made up his mind some time ago and he ain't changing it

A full set of accounts will give us a much better idea of where we are though

Posted: **Fri Apr 29, 2022 9:48 am**

RVclaret wrote: ↑
Fri Apr 29, 2022 9:26 am
Yes I can’t wait for more of ClaretPete’s doom forecasting, give it to me!

Well you'll have Paul's optimistic view, Aggi's on the fence tending towards optimism view, Chester's slightly negative view and my apocalyptic it's the end of the known world view.

And then you can have KRBFC telling everyone how stupid they are and various others getting excited about the semantics of nomenclature.

Half the board will expect to Rooney take us into Europe and the other half will start supporting Blackburn Rovers as Sean Dyche becomes their new manager.

What more do you want?

Posted: **Fri Apr 29, 2022 10:06 am**

Paul Waine wrote: ↑
Fri Apr 29, 2022 9:36 am
Hi Pete, strictly in the interest of accuracy I'd like to point out that the accounts for the year end 31st July 2021 will cover 7 months (plus a day or two, who's counting) under the new ownership.

It will be our first opportunity to see how the balance sheet has changed. Of course, it will also cover the season when there were no fans attending the games, bar the Liverpool game at the end of the season. If memory serves correctly, weren't tickets awarded on a ballot for that game?

We should also look out for what is said about related party transactions.

And, we should also look out for all the post-balance sheet events, which, if the accounts are signed-off by Alan Pace on 28th April 2022 - as he has done for the dormant BFC Women Ltd accounts - should bring us bang up to date with the departure of Sean Dyche.

OK, go on then, I'll also end this post with...

Exciting times.

Fair enough, 6 or 7 months the point remains the same but I think it is only fair to explain the context of these accounts. As part of a set of group accounts there is considerable scope to deliver a message that perhaps the club could not do before.

And yes Covid is a factor as are broadcast revenue issues.

Posted: **Fri Apr 29, 2022 10:14 am**

Lancasterclaret wrote: ↑
Fri Apr 29, 2022 9:46 am
A full set of accounts will give us a much better idea of where we are though

I imagine they’ll shed more light but still (very) historic and backward-looking. As with all accounts.

Posted: **Fri Apr 29, 2022 10:17 am**

ClaretPete001 wrote: ↑
Fri Apr 29, 2022 9:48 am
Well you'll have Paul's optimistic view, Aggi's on the fence tending towards optimism view, Chester's slightly negative view and my apocalyptic it's the end of the known world view.

And then you can have KRBFC telling everyone how stupid they are and various others getting excited about the semantics of nomenclature.

Half the board will expect to Rooney take us into Europe and the other half will start supporting Blackburn Rovers as Sean Dyche becomes their new manager.

What more do you want?

Funny post, this

Posted: **Fri Apr 29, 2022 10:32 am**

RVclaret wrote: ↑
Fri Apr 29, 2022 9:39 am
Aggi, Chester and Paul are far more balanced, but whatever floats your boat!

Lancasterclaret wrote: ↑
Fri Apr 29, 2022 9:46 am
I think Chester and Pete are a nice balance, and Paul is someone who looks at stuff from a position in which he made up his mind some time ago and he ain't changing it

Got to agree with Lancaster here RV. Chester and Aggi give a good balanced view and whilst Paul is extremely knowledgeable and offers some good insights he is not balanced and will just look to twist any information to support the view he took 18 months ago which in effect is now an ideological viewpoint.

Posted: **Fri Apr 29, 2022 10:38 am**

ClaretPete001 wrote: ↑
Fri Apr 29, 2022 9:48 am
Well you'll have Paul's optimistic view, Aggi's on the fence tending towards optimism view, Chester's slightly negative view and my apocalyptic it's the end of the known world view.

And then you can have KRBFC telling everyone how stupid they are and various others getting excited about the semantics of nomenclature.

Half the board will expect to Rooney take us into Europe and the other half will start supporting Blackburn Rovers as Sean Dyche becomes their new manager.

What more do you want?

Hahahahah excellent. Should be sent via email to everyone who registers to the messageboard.

Posted: **Fri Apr 29, 2022 10:45 am**

Will the name Garlick appear in 'outgoings'?

Posted: **Fri Apr 29, 2022 10:57 am**

ClaretPete001 wrote: ↑
Fri Apr 29, 2022 9:48 am
Well you'll have Paul's optimistic view, Aggi's on the fence tending towards optimism view, Chester's slightly negative view and my apocalyptic it's the end of the known world view.

And then you can have KRBFC telling everyone how stupid they are and various others getting excited about the semantics of nomenclature.

Half the board will expect to Rooney take us into Europe and the other half will start supporting Blackburn Rovers as Sean Dyche becomes their new manager.

What more do you want?

I think optimism may be overselling my stance, I just resigned myself to what being taken over by American private equity meant quicker than some.

The most interesting things will probably be the cash balance (lots of suggestions that this was stripped for the takeover) and whether there are any disclosures on loans, etc further up the the group. It won't be as clear as many hope though and the same discussions will continue regardless.

Obviously we'll also have the obligatory misunderstanding of some standard disclosures with a complex narrative developed around them that will become gospel for a while.

Posted: **Fri Apr 29, 2022 11:12 am**

I really don't care tbh, as I simply hope and pray we can pull off the biggest miracle since that Bible chappy Lazarus and stay up this season. I'm another who doesn't know what an NFT is, but with everything going on just now I assume they are used for destroying tanks or field guns. Boom!

Posted: **Fri Apr 29, 2022 11:44 am**

The cash flow elements interest me the most, hard to disguise cash flow. The loan details would be interesting but I suspect opaque. Salaries interest me just because I suspect we are about 15th in the player salary table and are thus underperforming rather than punching above our weight.

Posted: **Fri Apr 29, 2022 12:15 pm**

For anyone remotely interested NFT’s is an accounting acronym for non-fungible tokens which are digital assets with blockchain-centric ownership.They’re quite common in the US and are digital proofs of purchase for baseball cards, digital music and can provide access to services like live-streamed concerts. US companies invest in them but there are no specific accounting rules or disclosure requirements for them.

Posted: **Fri Apr 29, 2022 12:20 pm**

ClaretPete001 wrote: ↑
Fri Apr 29, 2022 9:48 am

And then you can have KRBFC telling everyone how stupid they are

What more do you want?

I couldn't think of much better

Posted: **Fri Apr 29, 2022 12:26 pm**

aggi wrote: ↑
Fri Apr 29, 2022 10:57 am
I think optimism may be overselling my stance, I just resigned myself to what being taken over by American private equity meant quicker than some.

The most interesting things will probably be the cash balance (lots of suggestions that this was stripped for the takeover) and whether there are any disclosures on loans, etc further up the the group. It won't be as clear as many hope though and the same discussions will continue regardless.

Obviously we'll also have the obligatory misunderstanding of some standard disclosures with a complex narrative developed around them that will become gospel for a while.

Fair enough, I was just being humorous to an extent.

For the record I think my view represents the mainstream view and does not represent an agenda nor an "end of world" view.

The cash balance will be interesting but it depends whether the cash was used to pay for the club or fund interest only loans held at group level and paid for in management fees.

The actual capital loan is then just held on account pending the sale of the club and the realisation of the asset.

Posted: **Fri Apr 29, 2022 12:31 pm**

there will be nuances
- the accounts of The Burnley Football and Athletic Company Limited are likely to have the most information re the related company loans, this being the entity that has made the loan and the MSD loan as this is the entity we are told in the Offer Letter that has assumed responsibility for the loan and has then (via another related company loan) lent that to VSL (we currently believe that the monies of both these loans combined appeared in Kettering Capital Limited as £88m of share buying capital).
- As has been said the Cash Flows will be particularly interesting

We should also see if the cub are paying for the staged payments to the sellers and it will be interesting to look at the post date events particularly for any mention of that Offer to the small share holders and where the funds came from (not holding my breath for the detail)

FWIW I am predicting
-a loss of £5m - £10m on a turnover of less than £120m maybe as low as £115m
- as for the loans, circa £23m from the club (which may have increased since takeover) and £65m from MSD (which may include a fee roll up) and an MSD interest rate of around 8.14% and interest payments of circa £5.4m a year

Posted: **Fri Apr 29, 2022 1:19 pm**

Pickles wrote: ↑
Fri Apr 29, 2022 10:38 am
Hahahahah excellent. Should be sent via email to everyone who registers to the messageboard.

Thanks but no thanks.
As Sam Goldwyn once said, "Count me out."

Posted: **Fri Apr 29, 2022 2:25 pm**

While we wait, I want to know how many times CP has refreshed CH website today?

Posted: **Fri Apr 29, 2022 2:30 pm**

NewClaret wrote: ↑
Fri Apr 29, 2022 2:25 pm
While we wait, I want to know how many times CP has refreshed CH website today?

I have registered for automated updates on all the related businesses

Posted: **Fri Apr 29, 2022 2:32 pm**

Chester Perry wrote: ↑
Fri Apr 29, 2022 2:30 pm
I have registered for automated updates on all the related businesses

Posted: **Fri Apr 29, 2022 3:44 pm**

As a season ticket holder I am not particularly bothered by who got what or borrowed what or leveraged what to takeover the club. All I am able to do is turn up, or not, to watch whatever style of play by whatever players are put out there for matches.

I and, from what I see, most people on this board have not the necessary means nor influence so can do nothing abut what happens to the finances of the club, or whether the chairman/owner is good or bad except renew my season ticket or not.

Would I stop attending because we got relegated? Even if if that eventually took us back to the bottom of tier 4? Probably not even though I would be hurt and sad - after all I did not stop being a Burnley supporter in the 1980s and even forced my young son to become a Burnley fan aged 4, just in case.

Posted: **Fri Apr 29, 2022 3:49 pm**

bfcmik wrote: ↑
Fri Apr 29, 2022 3:44 pm
As a season ticket holder I am not particularly bothered by who got what or borrowed what or leveraged what to takeover the club. All I am able to do is turn up, or not, to watch whatever style of play by whatever players are put out there for matches.

I and, from what I see, most people on this board have not the necessary means nor influence so can do nothing abut what happens to the finances of the club, or whether the chairman/owner is good or bad except renew my season ticket or not.

Would I stop attending because we got relegated? Even if if that eventually took us back to the bottom of tier 4? Probably not even though I would be hurt and sad - after all I did not stop being a Burnley supporter in the 1980s and even forced my young son to become a Burnley fan aged 4, just in case.

Fair enough if you're not interested in the subject..Personally I can't think of a more important topic and appropriate use of this messageboard, informed by a handful of extremely knowledgeable posters.

Posted: **Fri Apr 29, 2022 4:14 pm**

looks like we are not going to see them today - at least from Companies House, The club has historically posted them on the club site first

that doesn't mean that Companies House has not received them just that they have not yet uploaded them - it can take up to 5 working days to do so, though that is a pretty rare occurrence these days

Posted: **Fri Apr 29, 2022 4:23 pm**

They might have made a coronavirus application to extend the deadline for 3 months.

Posted: **Fri Apr 29, 2022 4:25 pm**

They could still, if they wanted, request the three month filing extension for Covid 19 reasons. Does need to be requested but it’s granted pretty much immediately with no questions asked, though I’d be surprised if they did that at such a late juncture.

Posted: **Fri Apr 29, 2022 4:54 pm**

Swizzlestick wrote: ↑
Fri Apr 29, 2022 4:25 pm
They could still, if they wanted, request the three month filing extension for Covid 19 reasons. Does need to be requested but it’s granted pretty much immediately with no questions asked, though I’d be surprised if they did that at such a late juncture.

I would be disappointed but not surprised - people thought our time under Garlick was one of limited information - the current ownership just seem to see that as a 'hold my non alcoholic beverage moment'

Posted: **Fri Apr 29, 2022 5:07 pm**

Personally I doubt they'll have extended the deadline. Pretty sure accounts would need to be filed with the Premier League regardless so there isn't much benefit. If they do file late fines are pretty minimal (although it is of course a bad look to file late).

I can understand people not being that interested. Personally I have an interest because of my job and have been posting on Burnley finances and stuff for the past 20 years or so but it's only pretty recently that people have become interested. You only need to look at when how no-one knew the ground had been sold to some BVI company until I happened to notice it to see how little the interest was.

Let's be honest, as we are now there's little we can do about it. We're nowhere near doing a Bury or an Oldham, you can see why people don't want to know the minutiae.

Posted: **Fri Apr 29, 2022 5:11 pm**

ClaretPete001 wrote: ↑
Fri Apr 29, 2022 12:26 pm
Fair enough, I was just being humorous to an extent.

For the record I think my view represents the mainstream view and does not represent an agenda nor an "end of world" view.

The cash balance will be interesting but it depends whether the cash was used to pay for the club or fund interest only loans held at group level and paid for in management fees.

The actual capital loan is then just held on account pending the sale of the club and the realisation of the asset.

I think the mainstream view is probably "Are we going bust right now? No, OK when are we making signings?"

Agree on the cash. The widespread reporting was that it was, in part, used to pay for the club (with some hyperbolic "they've taken all the money"). If that isn't the case and it's only interest then that's a very different scenario. (I don't think that will be the case personally.)

Posted: **Fri Apr 29, 2022 5:36 pm**

aggi wrote: ↑
Fri Apr 29, 2022 5:11 pm
I think the mainstream view is probably "Are we going bust right now? No, OK when are we making signings?"

Agree on the cash. The widespread reporting was that it was, in part, used to pay for the club (with some hyperbolic "they've taken all the money"). If that isn't the case and it's only interest then that's a very different scenario. (I don't think that will be the case personally.)

I meant the mainstream view of pundits, talking heads and financial people, which is that this is a problematic deal. My point being that reflecting a general held view does not equate to holding an agenda (not a point you made but others have).

My experience of dealing with finance people who run businesses on the edge is that they are not frightened of leveraging debt but tend to worry a lot about cashflow. Of course, in the end one creates a problem for the other but you are probably right..

Posted: **Fri Apr 29, 2022 5:45 pm**

aggi wrote: ↑
Fri Apr 29, 2022 5:07 pm
Personally I doubt they'll have extended the deadline. Pretty sure accounts would need to be filed with the Premier League regardless so there isn't much benefit. If they do file late fines are pretty minimal (although it is of course a bad look to file late).

I can understand people not being that interested. Personally I have an interest because of my job and have been posting on Burnley finances and stuff for the past 20 years or so but it's only pretty recently that people have become interested. You only need to look at when how no-one knew the ground had been sold to some BVI company until I happened to notice it to see how little the interest was.

Let's be honest, as we are now there's little we can do about it. We're nowhere near doing a Bury or an Oldham, you can see why people don't want to know the minutiae.

Posted: **Fri Apr 29, 2022 5:52 pm**

ClaretPete001 wrote: ↑
Fri Apr 29, 2022 9:21 am
Let me be the first cynic....

This will only be the first 6 months of the new ownership. It takes 2 or 3 years to really begin to see if there are longer term trends emerging.

But by that time, we could lose to Leyton Orient!

Posted: **Fri Apr 29, 2022 6:55 pm**

bfcmik wrote: ↑
Fri Apr 29, 2022 3:44 pm
... I did not stop being a Burnley supporter in the 1980s and even forced my young son to become a Burnley fan aged 4...

In the 1980s?

With the world as it is now, I suspect that if someone did similar today they'd be in bother with the child protection folks; even by the standards of the day taking a young lad to watch Burnley play in the late 80s was pretty cruel, does he show any signs of PTSD?

Posted: **Fri Apr 29, 2022 9:57 pm**

Paul Waine wrote: ↑
Fri Apr 29, 2022 8:40 am
Just kicking off the thread to discuss the club's accounts for the accounting period ended 31st July 2021.

I feel it's about time we moved on from the original takeover thread, never mind that some want to use that thread to debate their knowledge of NFTs.

Maybe today is the day that the accounts will be filed with Companies House. Or, maybe they will be filed but not viewable until after the bank holiday weekend.

UTC

Yawn

Posted: **Sat Apr 30, 2022 1:12 am**

Are they due today or is there a 3 month extension for covid ?

Posted: **Sat Apr 30, 2022 1:24 am**

paulatky wrote: ↑
Sat Apr 30, 2022 1:12 am
Are they due today or is there a 3 month extension for covid ?

Still due today per Companies House but there can be a few days’ delay sometimes. Also they could still activate the extension or simply file late but you’d hope neither of those are viable possibilities now.

Posted: **Sat Apr 30, 2022 9:56 am**

What are people expecting - full or abbreviated accounts ?

Posted: **Sat Apr 30, 2022 10:24 am**

AfloatinClaret wrote: ↑
Fri Apr 29, 2022 6:55 pm
In the 1980s? With the world as it is now, I suspect that if someone did similar today they'd be in bother with the child protection folks; even by the standards of the day taking a young lad to watch Burnley play in the late 80s was pretty cruel, does he show any signs of PTSD?

He'll be with me at Watford this afternoon along with HIS son who was forced to attend his first game aged 4 - slightly different era as we were in the Championship at that time

Posted: **Sat Apr 30, 2022 10:33 am**

Nonayforever wrote: ↑
Sat Apr 30, 2022 9:56 am
What are people expecting - full or abbreviated accounts ?

Full. Too big to file abbreviated.

Burnley Football Club - first accounts under ALK

Burnley Football Club - first accounts under ALK

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