Today is further proof that using this ‘clear and obvious ‘ to
explain the need for VAR has to be removed.
VAR has become a vehicle of stealth by the decision makers

Always has been. Just another tool to ensure the prem can engineer desired outcomes, when required.

The league is so scripted it’s unreal.

The thing is, VAR bottled it and passed it to the referee to make the decision.

What's the point ?

Funkydrummer wrote: ↑

Sun May 15, 2022 2:58 pm

The thing is, VAR bottled it and passed it to the referee to make the decision.

What's the point ?

Not bottled. Searched for possible opportunity to break deadlock in Spurs favour.

That is more puppetry

Oooo, you are so cynical Ian !!!!!!

Funkydrummer wrote: ↑

Sun May 15, 2022 2:58 pm

The thing is, VAR bottled it and passed it to the referee to make the decision.

What's the point ?

The thing is VAR didn't actually bottle it and pass the decision to the ref. That's how it "appears" in these situations, but the reality is if VAR tells the ref to go to the monitor, they are telling him he's got it wrong and needs to change his mind, even if he looks at it and actually thinks he got it right. The ref's sometimes need to have the guts to stick with what they believe was correct, because after all, they're the guy refereeing the game.

My point is that these tight decisions on the field are not clear and obvious and as such should not be changed by VAR.
Today we are talking about the ball hitting the arm , it could easily have been a goal ruled out for offside by a fraction of an inch.

This is not the VAR the supporters wanted , it’s the game being stolen from the fans by the agenda and finance driven decision makers

Funkydrummer wrote: ↑

Sun May 15, 2022 3:02 pm

Oooo, you are so cynical Ian !!!!!!

It is in plain sight, whenever it is 'required'.

Prem is a world leading product run by businessmen.
What is in the interest of the product, is what is required for the business.

If you wished to improve it, you would do your utmost to achieve that end.

I almost want to get relegated so we can stop the utter loons thinking this is a fix to get us relegated

VAR will give an accidental handball but gladly ignores blatant shirt pulls. It's ****

Vegas Claret wrote: ↑

Sun May 15, 2022 5:07 pm

VAR will give an accidental handball but gladly ignores blatant shirt pulls. It's ****

Its ****, but its not biased against us

Lancasterclaret wrote: ↑

Sun May 15, 2022 5:08 pm

Its ****, but its not biased against us

I think it has a heavy bias towards the big teams. Anyone out of the big six get so many poor decisions imho

Lancasterclaret wrote: ↑

Sun May 15, 2022 4:58 pm

I almost want to get relegated so we can stop the utter loons thinking this is a fix to get us relegated

Can you explain why weve seen more obvious handballs than today not given by VAR
No agenda I would just like to kmow

Take a look at Royal dragging Collins to the floor late in the second half. An indisputable penalty. Not even checked by Var. I wonder why ?

Lancasterclaret wrote: ↑

Sun May 15, 2022 4:58 pm

I almost want to get relegated so we can stop the utter loons thinking this is a fix to get us relegated

You almost want us to get relegated because of what some fans think. A bit weird.

Vegas Claret wrote: ↑

Sun May 15, 2022 5:10 pm

I think it has a heavy bias towards the big teams. Anyone out of the big six get so many poor decisions imho

I think its much better in that respect tbh


I have my issues with VAR (mainly over the time taken to resolve them) but one of the things it has done is stop dodgy goals from the big teams

There was a similar incident in the 2nd half when the ball struck the arm of a Spurs defender and went out for a corner. No check was made. Don’t believe there’s an agenda against us but there is incompetence and inconsistency.

Just adds insult to injury when they score in the time allowed to treat Cornet’s injury after he’d been elbowed

Just an all round bad day

AwayClaret wrote: ↑

Sun May 15, 2022 5:13 pm

You almost want us to get relegated because of what some fans think. A bit weird.

"Almost"

Not as weird as thinking that we are somehow being conspired against to be relegated, no?

Stacky_claret wrote: ↑

Sun May 15, 2022 5:11 pm

Can you explain why weve seen more obvious handballs than today not given by VAR
No agenda I would just like to kmow

No I can't

But that isn't the same as thinking there is a global conspiracy to see us relegated

Lancasterclaret wrote: ↑

Sun May 15, 2022 5:15 pm

"Almost"

Not as weird as thinking that we are somehow being conspired against to be relegated, no?

I'm not actually sure which is weirder tbh.

People need to understand that VAR is something that has been invented to accommodate advertising breaks mid match day some point in the future ( world Cup)
The rights and wrongs are irrelevant.

Unfortunately common sense has gone out of the game now with this VAR. The standard of refereeing is appalling too.

Lancasterclaret wrote: ↑

Sun May 15, 2022 5:16 pm

No I can't

But that isn't the same as thinking there is a global conspiracy to see us relegated

But why cant it be explained as we have VAR
I could understand if it was down to the referee alone but there has to be an explanation where VAR is used surely
If you can explain to.me why a penalty is given when no one claims and yet our centre forward is nearly punched into next week and nothing is given by said official perhaps people will stop the theories lol
There is no logical explanation?
Ps not just us affected also arsenal who must be fuming with the decision

Its ajuged to be handball and eventually a penalty is given. Yet when Wood is clearly pulled down by the last man for Southampton and not even a free kick.is given, when it was a clear red card sums up the dire state of english refereeing and VAR which never even looked at the foul.

FCBurnley wrote: ↑

Sun May 15, 2022 5:13 pm

Take a look at Royal dragging Collins to the floor late in the second half. An indisputable penalty. Not even checked by Var. I wonder why ?

Don’t suppose anyone has a link to this? Can’t find it on any of the highlights.

Stayingup wrote: ↑

Sun May 15, 2022 5:46 pm

Its ajuged to be handball and eventually a penalty is given. Yet when Wood is clearly pulled down by the last man for Southampton and not even a free kick.is given, when it was a clear red card sums up the dire state of english refereeing and VAR which never even looked at the foul.

It's worse than dire it's an absolute shambles

Stacky_claret wrote: ↑

Sun May 15, 2022 5:42 pm

But why cant it be explained as we have VAR
I could understand if it was down to the referee alone but there has to be an explanation where VAR is used surely
If you can explain to.me why a penalty is given when no one claims and yet our centre forward is nearly punched into next week and nothing is given by said official perhaps people will stop the theories lol
There is no logical explanation?
Ps not just us affected also arsenal who must be fuming with the decision

But they are different offences

Look, we'd have to see exactly the same offence to compare the two

I still have no idea why we didn't get a pen v Norwich btw!

Lancasterclaret wrote: ↑

Sun May 15, 2022 5:51 pm

But they are different offences

Look, we'd have to see exactly the same offence to compare the two

I still have no idea why we didn't get a pen v Norwich btw!

Rules are rules and with the application of VAR there should be no wrong decisions made hence people are always gunna have conspiracy theories
TBH it's very hard not to see conspiracies when looking at some of the decisions made
It's as if different officials have a different rule book
As someone said earlier thrre was a ball hit arm incident against spurs but no VAR review
Just why was there one for spurs and not one for us ???

What is clear and obvious?
Not clear on this meself

Stacky_claret wrote: ↑

Sun May 15, 2022 6:16 pm

Rules are rules and with the application of VAR there should be no wrong decisions made hence people are always gunna have conspiracy theories
TBH it's very hard not to see conspiracies when looking at some of the decisions made
It's as if different officials have a different rule book
As someone said earlier thrre was a ball hit arm incident against spurs but no VAR review
Just why was there one for spurs and not one for us ???

Your claim that there should be no wrong decisions is the crux of the matter here.

It does however contradict the ' clear and obvious ' element of VAR .

The whole point of my thread is that if these officials and the powers that be continue to strive for every decision to be correct then take out the ' clear and obvious' error because it's redundant.

I don't want this as I'd rather only penalise incidents that the on field ref and assistant
linespersons have clearly missed. Disallowing offside goals on fraction of inches for example is not a clear and obvious mistake. However it will end up with the correct decision.

A bit of a conundrum that needs an answer if the spirit of the game is to return.

VAR is replacing one person making a subjective decision with another person making a subjective decision. It was always going to be terrible.

He didn't even look like he'd made his mind up when he turned back round from the monitor.

It looked like he flipped an imaginary coin in his head to decide.

Either that or the first person he saw when he turned around was Barnes, so he thought, f*** that, it's a penalty.

Bin Ont Turf wrote: ↑

Sun May 15, 2022 10:21 pm

He didn't even look like he'd made his mind up when he turned back round from the monitor.

It looked like he flipped an imaginary coin in his head to decide.

Either that or the first person he saw when he turned around was Barnes, so he thought, f*** that, it's a penalty.

I thought the same. He looked like his arse had fallen out, with a vacant look on his face, then thought F**K it, Spurs are at home chasing points for ECL qualification, it’s a pen!! He certainly took his time. Tosser!!

Stacky_claret wrote: ↑

Sun May 15, 2022 5:42 pm

But why cant it be explained as we have VAR
I could understand if it was down to the referee alone but there has to be an explanation where VAR is used surely
If you can explain to.me why a penalty is given when no one claims and yet our centre forward is nearly punched into next week and nothing is given by said official perhaps people will stop the theories lol
There is no logical explanation?
Ps not just us affected also arsenal who must be fuming with the decision

The logical explanation is that referees make mistakes. They make fewer mistakes when they have video assistance but they still make them.

If one team is affected more than another by these mistakes it's because of randomness, not a conspiracy.

Really amazes me that some articulate people have a blind spot about this.

There are about half a dozen well known types of subconscious cognitive biases in common psychology that would all disadvantage a smaller team over a season. There is also a possibility of conscious bias, due to strength of media and big team outcry affecting career progression for officials. That is probably patchy but is bound to occur.

A psychologist would probably say it isn’t possible for a human to be truly impartial and bias free in this situation. VAR takes all transparency out of this because nobody else sees the feed and there is no way to know if bounces in both boxes are scrutinised equally. Transparency is vital. We don’t have any.

[posted in error]

dsr wrote: ↑

Mon May 16, 2022 12:03 am

[posted in error]

Is that you Kevin?

Elizabeth wrote: ↑

Sun May 15, 2022 6:49 pm

Your claim that there should be no wrong decisions is the crux of the matter here.

It does however contradict the ' clear and obvious ' element of VAR .

The whole point of my thread is that if these officials and the powers that be continue to strive for every decision to be correct then take out the ' clear and obvious' error because it's redundant.

I don't want this as I'd rather only penalise incidents that the on field ref and assistant
linespersons have clearly missed. Disallowing offside goals on fraction of inches for example is not a clear and obvious mistake. However it will end up with the correct decision.

A bit of a conundrum that needs an answer if the spirit of the game is to return.

Leaving aside the offside query - because for one thing I have never agreed that thirty years ago the lawsmakers change of offside law (level is onside) was to give the forwards the benefit of an extra hundredth of an inch. They clearly said it was to give a significant advantage that would lead to more goals. Also offside by a fraction of an inch isn't going to end up with the correct decision because they don't have the technology to measure the positions to the nearest thousandth of an inch; quite apart from the total lack of definition in the rules as to when the ball is deemed to be played. When it first touches the boot, when it last touches the boot?

But in this case, the ref would argue that there was a clear and obvious mistake. The ball touched Barnes' arm, and he missed it. Clear and obvious. All he then had to do was look at the screen to confirm that Barnes wasn't standing rigidly at attention with his arms by his side, and the penalty is a given. It's a fault in the laws, not in the referee - referees now are taught that in terms of shirt pulling at corners, it's basically anything goes and they must use common sense not to give penalties; but in the case of handball, common sense is irrelevant and the law must be applied to the letter. So if, like today, Barnes' position is in any way affected by being fouled a fraction of a second earlier, that's just tough. Which is why Friend didn't even consider why Barnes had got to where he was, it simply wasn't relevant in his mind. He had the chance to give a penalty, the powers-that-be want him to give penalties for handball, he took the chance to do what they wanted.

dsr wrote: ↑

Mon May 16, 2022 12:03 am

UP THE BLACKBURN ROVERS!!

I should think you posted that in error too

Funkydrummer wrote: ↑

Sun May 15, 2022 2:58 pm

The thing is, VAR bottled it and passed it to the referee to make the decision.

What's the point ?

VAR didn't bottle it - just thought it hit Barnes on the arm (which it did) and gave the ref another opportunity to view it as he had clearly missed the incident when it happened

I agree, they don't like to be seen to overturn a decision made by "one of their own" so give the ref the time to go back for another look

What all this does, however, is put the pressure right back on the ref

I have never seen a ref go to the screen and say "I'm sticking with my original decision f*** you"

The ref knows by this time that every man and his dog have seen the incident many times over and we all know what the outcome will be

VAR is not the best thing in the world but helps to get the right decisions made in more cases than not

The Bournemouth "disallowed goal" against us a couple of years back being a good example

We have to accept the rough with the smooth

VAR should only be used to check offside goals… it’s as simple as that for me.

dsr wrote: ↑

Mon May 16, 2022 12:13 am

Leaving aside the offside query - because for one thing I have never agreed that thirty years ago the lawsmakers change of offside law (level is onside) was to give the forwards the benefit of an extra hundredth of an inch. They clearly said it was to give a significant advantage that would lead to more goals. Also offside by a fraction of an inch isn't going to end up with the correct decision because they don't have the technology to measure the positions to the nearest thousandth of an inch; quite apart from the total lack of definition in the rules as to when the ball is deemed to be played. When it first touches the boot, when it last touches the boot?

But in this case, the ref would argue that there was a clear and obvious mistake. The ball touched Barnes' arm, and he missed it. Clear and obvious. All he then had to do was look at the screen to confirm that Barnes wasn't standing rigidly at attention with his arms by his side, and the penalty is a given. It's a fault in the laws, not in the referee - referees now are taught that in terms of shirt pulling at corners, it's basically anything goes and they must use common sense not to give penalties; but in the case of handball, common sense is irrelevant and the law must be applied to the letter. So if, like today, Barnes' position is in any way affected by being fouled a fraction of a second earlier, that's just tough. Which is why Friend didn't even consider why Barnes had got to where he was, it simply wasn't relevant in his mind. He had the chance to give a penalty, the powers-that-be want him to give penalties for handball, he took the chance to do what they wanted.

It took a very long time to be decided for a clear and obvious mistake. I'd suggest that anything that takes 4 or 5 minutes to decide can't be that clear and obvious.

And obviously if it was clear and obvious it doesn't require the ref to look at the monitor, if it's clear and obvious then there is no way the ref could disagree with the new decision.

aggi wrote: ↑

Mon May 16, 2022 9:18 am

It took a very long time to be decided for a clear and obvious mistake. I'd suggest that anything that takes 4 or 5 minutes to decide can't be that clear and obvious.

And obviously if it was clear and obvious it doesn't require the ref to look at the monitor, if it's clear and obvious then there is no way the ref could disagree with the new decision.

That's a good point and I'd add that if the players, team officials and fans don't go up in arms that is also a good indication that what we are looking at is not clear and obvious.

Dark Cloud wrote: ↑

Sun May 15, 2022 3:02 pm

The thing is VAR didn't actually bottle it and pass the decision to the ref. That's how it "appears" in these situations, but the reality is if VAR tells the ref to go to the monitor, they are telling him he's got it wrong and needs to change his mind, even if he looks at it and actually thinks he got it right. The ref's sometimes need to have the guts to stick with what they believe was correct, because after all, they're the guy refereeing the game.

This is absolutely spot on. It's the weaknesses of the Premier league Refs.

I have watched quite a bit of the Bundesliga on Sky Sports and on numerous occasions, i have seen the Ref stick with his original decision after looking at the screen.

Elizabeth wrote: ↑

Mon May 16, 2022 11:04 am

That's a good point and I'd add that if the players, team officials and fans don't go up in arms that is also a good indication that what we are looking at is not clear and obvious.

That (its devotees might claim) is the beauty of VAR. It can turn a trivial incident that no-one even noticed into a game-changing event. Spotting and changing obvious errors is easy, but the people running VAR have higher ambitions than that - they want to change the game.