• ARTICLE: Clarets await news after academy concerns

Posted: **Tue May 17, 2022 2:17 pm**

Our academy not received a permanent Cat 1 licence after audit

See link
https://www.uptheclarets.com/clarets-aw ... y-concerns

Posted: **Tue May 17, 2022 2:19 pm**

Does this mean we haven’t allowed for enough coaching staff etc…

Posted: **Tue May 17, 2022 2:21 pm**

Fingers crossed it all works out at appeal.

Posted: **Tue May 17, 2022 2:27 pm**

Newcastleclaret93 wrote: ↑
Tue May 17, 2022 2:19 pm
Does this mean we haven’t allowed for enough coaching staff etc…

No detail with us and Forest, just that there are concerns and will be discussed by the board. Birmingham, however, have been demoted back to Cat 2 and are now dependent on appeal.

Posted: **Tue May 17, 2022 2:36 pm**

It’d be a poor do, to have put all of the work into achieving this level, for it to be taken away from us. We’ve presumably brought in a team of experienced people to get firstly get us to this level and secondly, to ensure that it’s maintained.

A demotion wouldn’t reflect well on some of those in charge and could massively hinder any plans to develop players capable of the first team at the higher levels of the game.

It’ll be interesting to hear just what the reasons for this are.

Posted: **Tue May 17, 2022 2:58 pm**

What is the real difference between Cat 1 and Cat 2? i assuming Dwight came through when we had Cat 2. Given we have had Cat 1 status for 2 years and we don't seem to have any youth players break into the first team squad and from opinions on this board none of the current squad would appear to be good enough at present, is it an issue?

Posted: **Tue May 17, 2022 3:04 pm**

brexit wrote: ↑
Tue May 17, 2022 2:58 pm
What is the real difference between Cat 1 and Cat 2? i assuming Dwight came through when we had Cat 2. Given we have had Cat 1 status for 2 years and we don't seem to have any youth players break into the first team squad and from opinions on this board none of the current squad would appear to be good enough at present, is it an issue?

I'm not 100% sure, but I believe Cat 1 clubs generally play at a higher standard, and in theory if our youngsters are testing themselves against better opposition they should improve.

Whether you consider it an issue or not clearly the club does as they wouldn't have devoted the time and money to gain Cat 1 status otherwise.

Posted: **Tue May 17, 2022 3:13 pm**

brexit wrote: ↑
Tue May 17, 2022 2:58 pm
What is the real difference between Cat 1 and Cat 2? i assuming Dwight came through when we had Cat 2. Given we have had Cat 1 status for 2 years and we don't seem to have any youth players break into the first team squad and from opinions on this board none of the current squad would appear to be good enough at present, is it an issue?

If you're Cat 2 you can't get players from Cat 1 academies but the Cat 1 academies can poach yours. Also allowed to recruit U16s nationally if you are Cat 1. Plus various other things.

Posted: **Tue May 17, 2022 3:17 pm**

brexit wrote: ↑
Tue May 17, 2022 2:58 pm
What is the real difference between Cat 1 and Cat 2? i assuming Dwight came through when we had Cat 2. Given we have had Cat 1 status for 2 years and we don't seem to have any youth players break into the first team squad and from opinions on this board none of the current squad would appear to be good enough at present, is it an issue?

Having a Cat 1 academy for two years and its potential success is not based on youth players breaking into the first team in such a short space of time. We've placed ourselves strategically to give us better options going forward and the games programmes we now have are a major plus for our teams.

Posted: **Tue May 17, 2022 3:19 pm**

tiger76 wrote: ↑
Tue May 17, 2022 3:04 pm
I'm not 100% sure, but I believe Cat 1 clubs generally play at a higher standard

Worth looking at our fixtures at U18 level for example

2021/22 - Cat 1
https://www.uptheclarets.com/u23u18-sta ... lts-202122

2018/19 - Cat 2
https://www.uptheclarets.com/u23u18-sta ... lts-201819

2016/17 - Cat 3
https://www.uptheclarets.com/u23u18-sta ... lts-201617

Posted: **Tue May 17, 2022 3:27 pm**

aggi wrote: ↑
Tue May 17, 2022 3:13 pm
If you're Cat 2 you can't get players from Cat 1 academies but the Cat 1 academies can poach yours. Also allowed to recruit U16s nationally if you are Cat 1. Plus various other things.

Ah thanks Aggi didn't realise that

Posted: **Tue May 17, 2022 3:36 pm**

There’s nowhere near ( not even close ) the quality of players coming through the academy ranks from u9 up. The yrs u14-u16 since cat 1 status have mainly been “ cat 2 level “ players already in the system , with notable exceptions of course . The likes of Bolton, Preston , Blackburn have lads who really should be at Burnley . Then you have the obvious lure of City/Utd/Everton/Liverpool who maintain large development squads . Many opt to stay at a showpiece development squad rather than a lesser ( in their eyes ) academy squad . It’s getting there though.

Posted: **Tue May 17, 2022 4:48 pm**

If only we didn't get rid of Jon Pepper whose previous job was going round auditing academies so knew exactly how to make sure we hit and maintained cat 1 status....

Posted: **Tue May 17, 2022 5:20 pm**

FeedTheArf wrote: ↑
Tue May 17, 2022 4:48 pm
If only we didn't get rid of Jon Pepper whose previous job was going round auditing academies so knew exactly how to make sure we hit and maintained cat 1 status....

I thought that too. It was Jon who rescued us from nearly losing the academy to getting Cat 2 and then on the way to Cat 1.

Posted: **Tue May 17, 2022 5:36 pm**

Shambolic management if we lose Cat One status after parting company with Pepper.

Posted: **Tue May 17, 2022 5:37 pm**

ClaretTony wrote: ↑
Tue May 17, 2022 5:20 pm
I thought that too. It was Jon who rescued us from nearly losing the academy to getting Cat 2 and then on the way to Cat 1.

Why did he go?

Posted: **Tue May 17, 2022 5:43 pm**

If we loose cat 1 status so early after Dr Pepper left not looking good from the club utc

Posted: **Tue May 17, 2022 5:45 pm**

I thought the app, the owners use, would have catapulted us to the top of the list of amazing academies.

Posted: **Tue May 17, 2022 5:45 pm**

boatshed bill wrote: ↑
Tue May 17, 2022 5:37 pm
Why did he go?

The new owners wanted to take the academy in a different direction I assume, they made the decision, not Jon Pepper.

Posted: **Tue May 17, 2022 5:47 pm**

Well the new owners are taking the whole club in a new direction……..

Posted: **Tue May 17, 2022 7:18 pm**

I don't like criticising our new owners, believe it or not. I'd much rather the club be doing well and they do an excellent job.

But this is very concerning. They've made a lot of noise about developing the academy and wanting to bring through young players. I would have thought they'd have made certain we obtain the permanent Cat One licence.

If it goes to appeal what are our odds? Any word on what exactly we're falling short on and how quick/if we can afford to fix it?

Posted: **Tue May 17, 2022 7:34 pm**

From the sounds of things this is based on the first actual physical visit. The upgrade to cat 1 happened during COVID so there wasn't a visit.

It may be an issue that wasn't previously picked up due to this.

Posted: **Tue May 17, 2022 7:46 pm**

there was a significant drop in Football personnel reported in the last accounts (over 20 i seem to recall) from my basic understanding there is a minimum level of staffing required in a cat 1 Academy and budgetary spend allied to it

my speculation
funding has been cut (as in other areas it would seem) to meet the costs of the new administration, given their failure (to date) in attracting new investment

If we do lose the Cat 1 status that will be a keystone of VSL's grand plan for the the club lost (we were going to have a better academy than Southampton a certain person intimated) - Sean Dyche was both the cornerstone and foundation remember

Posted: **Tue May 17, 2022 7:50 pm**

Culmclaret wrote: ↑
Tue May 17, 2022 5:47 pm
Well the new owners are taking the whole club in a new direction……..

South?

Posted: **Tue May 17, 2022 9:51 pm**

Re Jon Pepper I don’t know how good he was as Academy Director or whatever his title was but he was a top bloke.

Myself and a mate went to watch the U23s play at Ipswich one afternoon and we approached a chap with Burnley logos on his kit watching the game near the corner flag well away from the dugouts. Turns out it was Jon Pepper. We had a nice long chat with him and he gave us his phone number and said to contact him if we were coming up to Burnley and he would show us round the Academy if there was a youth fixture in the same morning.

Unfortunately that would mean us having to set off at about five o’clock in the morning so we were not able to take up the offer.

My mate contacted him to wish him all the best when he was jettisoned from the club and he replied implying that it wasn’t his choice to leave. He did remember us as he recalled quite accurately one of my outstanding physical features.

Hopefully the Academy maintains its status particularly when you note how beneficial it has been to Rovers in producing Championship standard players should we sink to that level.

Posted: **Tue May 17, 2022 10:09 pm**

ClaretLoup wrote: ↑
Tue May 17, 2022 9:51 pm
Re Jon Pepper I don’t know how good he was as Academy Director or whatever his title was but he was a top bloke.

Myself and a mate went to watch the U23s play at Ipswich one afternoon and we approached a chap with Burnley logos on his kit watching the game near the corner flag well away from the dugouts. Turns out it was Jon Pepper. We had a nice long chat with him and he gave us his phone number and said to contact him if we were coming up to Burnley and he would show us round the Academy if there was a youth fixture in the same morning.

Unfortunately that would mean us having to set off at about five o’clock in the morning so we were not able to take up the offer.

My mate contacted him to wish him all the best when he was jettisoned from the club and he replied implying that it wasn’t his choice to leave. He did remember us as he recalled quite accurately one of my outstanding physical features.

Hopefully the Academy maintains its status particularly when you note how beneficial it has been to Rovers in producing Championship standard players should we sink to that level.

I met Jon soon after he started and he was like a breath of fresh air after Jason Blake. Having said that, anyone would have been after Blake.

But never had an issue with Jon at all, and I never heard any wrong words about him from anyone else. Hadn’t seen him in some time due to the pandemic but did speak via text after he’d left the club and then again when he started his new job.

Posted: **Tue May 17, 2022 10:11 pm**

aggi wrote: ↑
Tue May 17, 2022 7:34 pm
From the sounds of things this is based on the first actual physical visit. The upgrade to cat 1 happened during COVID so there wasn't a visit.

It may be an issue that wasn't previously picked up due to this.

There’s only been one visit and that was earlier this year. There is no indication as to what the issue is. It could be long standing or a recent issue.

Posted: **Tue May 17, 2022 10:57 pm**

ClaretTony wrote: ↑
Tue May 17, 2022 10:09 pm

Hadn’t seen him in some time due to the pandemic but did speak via text after he’d left the club and then again when he started his new job.

I am very pleased that he has found a new job, would you be kind enough to say what he is doing now, Tony?

Posted: **Wed May 18, 2022 10:14 am**

ClaretLoup wrote: ↑
Tue May 17, 2022 10:57 pm
I am very pleased that he has found a new job, would you be kind enough to say what he is doing now, Tony?

He's working for a club in Nigeria

Posted: **Wed May 18, 2022 8:40 pm**

It would be shocking if we lost our current status!
Can ALK get anything right?

Posted: **Wed May 18, 2022 8:44 pm**

Spike wrote: ↑
Wed May 18, 2022 8:40 pm
It would be shocking if we lost our current status!
Can ALK get anything right?

Hope you missed off the smilie face!

Posted: **Wed May 18, 2022 8:46 pm**

Discovered we play 4-4-2 all age groups.

Posted: **Wed May 18, 2022 9:02 pm**

ClaretTony wrote: ↑
Tue May 17, 2022 10:11 pm
There’s only been one visit and that was earlier this year. There is no indication as to what the issue is. It could be long standing or a recent issue.

There may not have been an indication from those assessing to suggest what the issue was, but we must surely have an idea.

We knew what the criteria were to apply for and achieve Cat 1 status, albeit seemingly without a visiting audit. We should therefore know in what area(s) of the requirements that we may be deemed to be failing.

If we aren’t on top of things like that and ensuring that we are doing what is required to maintain the desired status, we deserve whatever is coming.

If it’s not a positive outcome it won’t reflect well on Pace. The list of worries (that may or may not come to fruition) is certainly not decreasing.

Posted: **Wed May 18, 2022 9:23 pm**

Spike wrote: ↑
Wed May 18, 2022 8:40 pm
It would be shocking if we lost our current status!
Can ALK get anything right?

I doubt ALK are to blame for this.. certain senior management already at the club were told a long time ago of the issues that needed addressing in order to keep it's cat 1 status and they assured the auditor's this would be carried out but chose to ignore it.

Posted: **Wed May 18, 2022 9:28 pm**

BillyHamilton9 wrote: ↑
Wed May 18, 2022 9:23 pm
I doubt ALK are to blame for this.. certain senior management already at the club were told a long time ago of the issues that needed addressing in order to keep it's cat 1 status and they assured the auditor's this would be carried out but chose to ignore it.

That may be the case, I don’t know. IF however, having Cat1 status is seen as being important by the powers that be, it’s ultimately their responsibility.

They may not be directly responsible but they sure as hell should be ensuring that those that they’ve entrusted with the responsibility are doing their jobs.

Posted: **Wed May 18, 2022 10:08 pm**

BillyHamilton9 wrote: ↑
Wed May 18, 2022 9:23 pm
I doubt ALK are to blame for this.. certain senior management already at the club were told a long time ago of the issues that needed addressing in order to keep it's cat 1 status and they assured the auditor's this would be carried out but chose to ignore it.

I don’t think any of us know the issue(s) that are causing concern but we’ve only had the Cat 1 licence for two years and the audit was done this calendar year.

I’m not sure who is left now in the academy from when we first got Cat 1 status.

Posted: **Thu May 19, 2022 6:01 am**

Slightly off topic. But how many are still at the club, staff wise, that were there 18 months ago?

Posted: **Thu May 19, 2022 6:50 am**

Spike wrote: ↑
Wed May 18, 2022 8:40 pm
It would be shocking if we lost our current status!
Can ALK get anything right?

Let's wait for the outcome before we start looking to blame anyone.

Posted: **Thu May 19, 2022 6:55 am**

Spike wrote: ↑
Wed May 18, 2022 8:40 pm
It would be shocking if we lost our current status!
Can ALK get anything right?

We’ve got a chance of staying in this league thanks to their decision to sack Dyche, you should be grateful, we’d already be down otherwise.

Posted: **Thu May 19, 2022 9:28 am**

Spike wrote: ↑
Wed May 18, 2022 8:40 pm
It would be shocking if we lost our current status!
Can ALK get anything right?

Given that 60% of those granted a provisional licence are now being queried over being Cat 1 apportioning blame may not be that straightforward.

Posted: **Thu May 19, 2022 9:50 am**

aggi wrote: ↑
Thu May 19, 2022 9:28 am
Given that 60% of those granted a provisional licence are now being queried over being Cat 1 apportioning blame may not be that straightforward.

Two through, two queried and one out.

Posted: **Thu May 19, 2022 10:11 am**

RVclaret wrote: ↑
Thu May 19, 2022 6:55 am
We’ve got a chance of staying in this league thanks to their decision to sack Dyche, you should be grateful, we’d already be down otherwise.

Maybe, maybe not, but how on earth does that relate to the academy category within EPPP.

Posted: **Thu May 19, 2022 11:35 am**

ClaretTony wrote: ↑
Thu May 19, 2022 10:11 am
Maybe, maybe not, but how on earth does that relate to the academy category within EPPP.

It was in reply to a post which questioned whether ALK could get anything right, not just the academy

Posted: **Thu May 19, 2022 12:37 pm**

Nori1958 wrote: ↑
Thu May 19, 2022 11:35 am
It was in reply to a post which questioned whether ALK could get anything right, not just the academy

Well it appears that the academy has been allowed to slide since Pepper left last summer.

Posted: **Thu May 19, 2022 2:50 pm**

ClaretTony wrote: ↑
Thu May 19, 2022 12:37 pm
Well it appears that the academy has been allowed to slide since Pepper left last summer.

I guess we'll find out when the decision is announced, it's a strange one with covid, and the only real time audit was this year, perhaps if the audit had taken place when it should have done, the same concerns might have been raised then, whilst Pepper was still employed by the club.

Posted: **Thu May 19, 2022 3:16 pm**

Nori1958 wrote: ↑
Thu May 19, 2022 2:50 pm
I guess we'll find out when the decision is announced, it's a strange one with covid, and the only real time audit was this year, perhaps if the audit had taken place when it should have done, the same concerns might have been raised then, whilst Pepper was still employed by the club.

I suspect not

Posted: **Thu May 19, 2022 3:20 pm**

With all due respect, if Pepper was that good, why’s he at a club in Nigeria now? Padiham would be a higher standard.

Posted: **Thu May 19, 2022 3:22 pm**

ClaretTony wrote: ↑
Thu May 19, 2022 3:16 pm
I suspect not

Like you said earlier, none of know the issues involved.

Posted: **Thu May 19, 2022 3:42 pm**

Without knowing too much about these things is it not a case of, this is where you come up short, you'll have a month or two to put it right and if you do you'll stay at Cat 1 if not you'll drop back to Cat 2?
Or is it more a case of, you haven't satisfied the requirements, try again next year?
Seems a bit harsh if so.

Posted: **Thu May 19, 2022 4:21 pm**

ClaretTony wrote: ↑
Thu May 19, 2022 12:37 pm
Well it appears that the academy has been allowed to slide since Pepper left last summer.

I don’t think that’s the case at all and it’s dangerous to say so until you know the findings and action planning coming from the audit.

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