It was in our own hands...or was it....

[Goddy]

I've been thinking about all the psychology of the final few days of last season and how everyone at Burnley (after the Villa game) were banging on about the outcome 'being in our own hands'.

Then the last game happened and we set up defensively and with players playing out of position to accommodate that defensive set-up. Essentially, it struck me, we were trying not to lose. At that point, it was no longer in our own hands. We were saying to Leeds 'go out and win, then and if you do get ahead (and we're not losing) we'll go and try and win too'. Essentially, we'd given the initiative away and it wasn't in our own hands as we were going to be looking at what Leeds were doing and reacting accordingly.

Now, before everyone gets on my case and gives me the 'get over it' crass stuff, I am over it. I'm actually interested in the whole psychology of it all and, indeed, happy to hear from those with more knowledge about these things than my layman's (relatively) uninformed view.

Were we almost doomed once the 'don't lose' mentality was our chosen way forward? I have to say if we did go with that attitude, that's disappointing. There were 20,000 people there for the Newcastle game who would have still been gutted had we lost but if we'd given it a right go from the off, no-one would have gone away thinking we hadn't given it everything.

[Rowls]

Quite right. Although we got a little uplift from the change in manager, we paid for not having a good manager in the end.

We were set up with the wrong formation and the wrong mindset.

[Hbclaret007]

I agree completely. I never bought into any of the 'playing with the shackles off’ nonsense. A different voice gave us a short boost, but we just weren’t good enough in the end. We were unlucky with injuries which reduced our limited options, however last season was a warning and we didn’t heed it.

The silence from our management is worrying, but I’m hoping for some good news soon about VK. If we can get him and get commitments from some key players, with some imaginative loans and new signings, we could be in for an enjoyable season.

[CoolClaret]

In the last few games I feel that the pressure really got to MJ - it was clear he started overthinking it.

I recall one of his press conferences where he stated that he has learnt through experience that ‘being a manager isn’t necessarily about the Xs & Os’ , ‘which are important but there’s more to management than tactics’ (sic) - which btw I wholeheartedly agree with.

Seems like the last few games he reverted to type and tried to come up with these innovative solutions to get results - gone from round pegs in round holes to square pegs in round holes (Collins at right back anyone?)

Newcastle were given far too much respect, when Joelinton went off we were playing against Murphy and Longstaff in midfield and we treated them as though they were Xavi & Inniesta.

I guess that’s what happen when one has an inexperienced manager that let the hype and pressure get to him.

Hopefully MJ/ Pace/board/staff learn from this

[Tricky Trevor]

We relegated ourselves after throwing 5 points away in the first 2 home games. That first victory is vital every season.

[Woodleyclaret]

We didn't expect for several players nor to turn up
Dwight, Connor and Josh Brownhill were all not up for the challenge and you need everyone up to win the most important game in years
In the end we got a gutless surrender against a very average Newcastle team.

[ClaretPete001]

We did get an uplift but it probably wasn't as significant as it seemed?

From January to March we got 10 points from 7 games including wins against Spurs, away at Brighton and a point against Manchester United.

And promptly lost 4 beat Everton lost to Norwich and then went on a run again only to get 1 point from the last 4.

In the end, MJs brief reign in charge began to look a lot like SDs prior to him.

[Lancasterclaret]

All our good run did was put us into a position where we had a chance to survive

And we played well v Villa (but made bad defensive mistakes and didn't take our chances), well v Spurs (but got nothing), okay v Villa (but again, poor goal to concede) and absolutely terribly for 60 minutes v Newcastle

We had it in our own hands, and we didn't do enough, and the formation, the selection and the half time substitution in the Newcastle game left a lot to be desired

Injuries and COVID also played a huge part as well, but at the end of the day, the teams that get relegated are the teams that deserve to be relegated sadly

[ClaretPete001]

All our good run did was put us into a position where we had a chance to survive

And we played well v Villa (but made bad defensive mistakes and didn't take our chances), well v Spurs (but got nothing), okay v Villa (but again, poor goal to concede) and absolutely terribly for 60 minutes v Newcastle

We had it in our own hands, and we didn't do enough, and the formation, the selection and the half time substitution in the Newcastle game left a lot to be desired

Injuries and COVID also played a huge part as well, but at the end of the day, the teams that get relegated are the teams that deserve to be relegated sadly

Equally, the good run from Jan to March did the same only to end (eventually) in defeats at Norwich and Brentford.

The squad wasn't good enough - not enough money spent and what was spent was done so poorly in 2018/19 to 2019/20.

And then the decision not to invest at all because of Covid in 2020/21 and then a distracting takeover.

As you say, the worst 3 squads went down and the reasons why are crystal clear.

Smaller clubs can't afford to take their eye off the ball or invest unwisely for 3 years - the manager, interim manager and playing staff did brilliantly to keep it going for so long.

[daveisaclaret]

We had it in our own hands and frankly even though MJ got it wrong on the last day I think it's a bit unfair to say we went out not to lose.

If Collins had kept his hands to himself (I don't blame him, he's a young lad and it seems very out of character, but it was a real stinker of a mistake) and we went in at 0-0 half time it would have given us a great platform to win the game.

[CrosspoolClarets]

We put ourselves through errors in a position where we could get stitched up, then we got out of it, them we got in it again.

No doubts the “powers” wanted the huge city clubs to make up the Prem but we made it easy for them. So it was kind of in our hands, but kind of wasn’t.

The Richarlison delayed charge this morning for that flare that I’ve separately posted is a good example of where we put ourselves in a position where other clubs would start benefitting from favourable decisions due to their size and we, in coming from behind, couldn’t do much to stay above it in the table.

[Lancasterclaret]

We put ourselves through errors in a position where we could get stitched up, then we got out of it, them we got in it again.

No doubts the “powers” wanted the huge city clubs to make up the Prem but we made it easy for them. So it was kind of in our hands, but kind of wasn’t.

The Richarlison delayed charge this morning for that flare that I’ve separately posted is a good example of where we put ourselves in a position where other clubs would start benefitting from favourable decisions due to their size and we, in coming from behind, couldn’t do much to stay above it in the table.

I'm still struggling at how many people believe its rigged

We weren't good enough, and didn't invest (for whatever reason) and we went down

[Colburn_Claret]

In the kead up to the match the common opinion on this mb, was to attack and go for it.
It was sad to see the starting XI, and as hindsight shows we were right.

I would think it would be a lot more difficult decision for MJ, than for us fans. He did a great job considering, and I for o e can forgive him for the last game.
As someone wise once said, **** happens.

[CrosspoolClarets]

I'm still struggling at how many people believe its rigged

We weren't good enough, and didn't invest (for whatever reason) and we went down

Agree and agree. We made a rod for our own backs like I suggested. But I still struggle how anyone can see it isn’t a level playing field.

It’s like swimming against a tide. Not just us but all little clubs, Huddersfield are hard done by too. It isn’t rigged, it’s a tide, the big clubs have the influence to affect things, like Richarlison’s charge being delayed or just the pressure put on referees by managers with media high profiles claiming they never get decisions (Frank) or by a huge crowd (Forest).

I thus have sympathy to our people who contributed to our downfall, this tide can be draining and affects decision making. Arguably (back to the OP) we should have retained a siege mentality to the end, because it was never entirely in our hands, that underdog attitude helps us.

[Lancasterclaret]

Agree and agree. We made a rod for our own backs like I suggested. But I still struggle how anyone can see it isn’t a level playing field.

It’s like swimming against a tide. Not just us but all little clubs, Huddersfield are hard done by too. It isn’t rigged, it’s a tide, the big clubs have the influence to affect things, like Richarlison’s charge being delayed or just the pressure put on referees by managers with media high profiles claiming they never get decisions (Frank) or by a huge crowd (Forest).

I thus have sympathy to our people who contributed to our downfall, this tide can be draining and affects decision making. Arguably (back to the OP) we should have retained a siege mentality to the end, because it was never entirely in our hands, that underdog attitude helps us.

Its not a level playing field because we are one of the smallest clubs in the division, with one of the smallest budgets

Eventually yuo will get 20 clubs, all with £100 million war chests, and all of them convinced that they are too big or too rich to finish 18th, 19th or 20th

Logically, there is only one solution when it gets to that stage, and I don't think I really need to point it out what that is

[CrosspoolClarets]

Agreed Lancs.

While the Richarlison story is ‘live’ another example is that Everton got him released by Brazil for that comeback against us in September. A smaller club wouldn't have that influence. But on the flip side, we left Cornet on the bench for that game - knowing what we know now, we were too passive, and let some of these games get away from us.

[RVclaret]

Injuries to Jay Rod and Vydra didn't help. We were playing really well as a team with Jay and Wout up top, Cornet left, Dwight right, Cork and Brownhill in the middle. That's when we looked our most fluid going forwards. Cornet got injured first, then Jay then Vydra. Losing three big attacking players like that would hurt any team. Starting the game against Villa with Wout and Barnes up top and no Cornet really left us in the mud. Tarky going off early in that second half added insult to injury.

Then you've got the huge chance / miss from Wout at Villa, which led into the Newcastle game, where to be honest, management and players bottled it - as you say, they went into it overly worried about ASM. I remain convinced if we'd have started with Barnes and Wout up top, Cornet left, Dwight right and Roberts RB, it would have been a different game.

[bfcjg]

We were not good enough all season.

[RVclaret]

We were not good enough all season.

Still collected 35 points, which would be enough to keep you up most seasons.

The thread is specifically talking about the run in and particularly the final day, when it was very much in our hands to stay up, before kick off.

[Elizabeth]

This really was a season that despite our obvious weaknesses we could have survived. That disappoints me.
No one should deny that Michael Jackson and his team did a wonderful job getting us to that last game. Neither should anyone deny that Sean Dyche was the architect for our demise on the field with his poor tactics and team selection.
The psychology in the last few days? Good enough to get us a point in a difficult away game at Villa. This suggested that the players were in the right zone. However the celebrations by the players after that Villa game worried me at the time.
I think the reality of the occasion on the last day got to some of the players and nerves took over. The obvious evidence being the panic handball just after the dithering in our box that led to the corner.
Newcastle’s second goal released the nerves but by then it was too late for a team with limited goal scoring qualities.

[Neil]

It really was fine margins. Villa cut us open at home so he corrected it at Spurs and it worked well and carried onto the Villa away game, which we should have won. I was worried about the Newcastle game but I just couldn't see Leeds getting anything at Brentford. So I can understand a more defensive set up against Newcastle. Then there's all the individual moments over a season. Off the top of my head, no pen against Norwich at home, pen conceded at Spurs, missed pen at West Ham, Cornet miss at Norwich.....
Everton 5th minute of injury time winner against Newcastle, countless points for Leeds in injury time and even Brentford seeing that last game out with 9 men.
Then there's the fact we would have stayed up if there was no VAR.
Even with all that, I think we deserved to go down.
The whole place was stale from top to bottom.
I was devastated up until this time last week but I'm slowly coming round to looking forward to the new season.
Once this announcement is finally made, I reckon I'll be well up for it.

[Dark Cloud]

Numerous little things made a difference on the final day, but Lowton's unfortunate absence barely gets mentioned, yet I feel it meant Jackson couldn't play the team/formation as he would have really wanted and I definitely think it proved crucial. Collins playing behind Roberts didn't work in the first half and obviously we looked better in the second when we changed things, but still not great. Having said that, Jackson was juggling what was available to him, but I still feel he definitely got his tactics and selection wrong. I also feel (like virtually everyone else) that this season Brentford would beat Leeds 19 times out of 20, especially at home and they simply chose that day of all days to totally mess it up.

[CaptJohn]

I agree wholeheartedly with the OP and would go as far as to say that the reason some players "didn't turn up," was because they were confused at the system employed. Ben Mee must take a fair share of the blame for that because he knows the squad, their abilities and expectations.

[Superjohnnyfrancis]

Jacko was doing really well until he played Collins right back and put Long central defence last game. Then inexplicably put Roberts into the right wing role in a 4-4-2 when he was playing 5-3-2 for the previous few games.

We weren't going to beat Newcastle though whatever happened that final game, they are too good a team for us.

Losing away to Norwich was where our season ended, unforgivable performance. Very poor first game against Brighton too, got done by two carbon copy goals.

[Tricky Trevor]

If Collins had kept his hands to himself (I don't blame him, he's a young lad)

Neither do I. He, wrongly, thought the Mag was going to head it in. Haven’t seen anybody comment on Nick Pope. If he’d left it alone Collins would have cleared it or it would have cleared all of them.

[corporal jones]

Neither do I. He, wrongly, thought the Mag was going to head it in. Haven’t seen anybody comment on Nick Pope. If he’d left it alone Collins would have cleared it or it would have cleared all of them.

please tell me you are not going to level blame at Nick Pope! without him we would have been down 4 games previous to the Newcastle one.

[Belgianclaret]

Seems conjecture to me.

MJ did a wonderful job in gaining more than expected points after the Norwich disaster. That at least put us in with a chance of survival in the final game.

I could pick out the failure to double up on St Maximim, but all in all nerves got the better of the players, and the handball at the start of the game proved pivotal.

As stated above, we failed to gain sufficient points all season long

[warksclaret]

What I will remember from the season was that we looked to be in danger after drawing at home to Watford .The sacking of SD was a shock in terms of timing but not in view of results. MJ managed to revitalise the team and we got some great initial results and our level of football improved. MJ was faced with some horrendous injury issues but was imaginative with his team and subs and the results continued to improve. I think MJ then felt his tweaks would continue to work, but at the end he tinkered too much and we lost the vital Newcastle game. It was never in our hands because we were short on the necessary calibre to secure wins. The other thing I will remember about the season is the performance of our forwards (Cornet excepted). The total goals of Wood, VW, Vydra, Barnes and Rodriguez was appalling. I know there was little service but boy did we miss some sitters that could have ensured safety. VAR was cruel at the end but we dont tend to talk about decisions that went our way

[vinrogue]

I think I have watched enough games in the PL to get a sense of some clubs are lucky and some are not. We fall into the 2nd category. It would therefore follow that it was never truly in our own hands. How we could have laughed at the moment Tim Krull punched Vydra and the ref said nothing doing and VAR said nothing to see here. Now if you are a Huddersfield fan you will no doubt be upset that the ref has retired after one game too many and be on the unlucky step with quite a few other teams. There are so many lucky and unlucky calls that it forms a pattern and so you can predict the outcome of VAR decisions, I got both the Notts Forest calls correct, I got the Vydra one wrong. Just unlucky?

[BurnleyFC]

The way we set up for the final game, knowing a win would keep us in the Premier League, was shocking.

[Tricky Trevor]

please tell me you are not going to level blame at Nick Pope! without him we would have been down 4 games previous to the Newcastle one.

Agree totally but apportion blame where it belongs.

[evensteadiereddie]

The other struggling teams always seemed to make things happen when they needed to.
We never seemed strong, good or assured enough to do that ourselves.
A pity but we can't complain.

[boatshed bill]

I agree wholeheartedly with the OP and would go as far as to say that the reason some players "didn't turn up," was because they were confused at the system employed. Ben Mee must take a fair share of the blame for that because he knows the squad, their abilities and expectations.

They played with freedom when they thought we were down, froze when we had something to play for.
Nick Pope has earned us a lot of points, and not just this season.

[Herts Clarets]

No matter who we played up front, we didn't score enough. Let's face it we could have played a forward 3 of Kane, Son and Vardy and we still wouldn't have scored enough. Until we address the midfield of Cork, Westwood, Stephens and Brownhill it will continue to be the case. No pace. No creativity. No ability to pick a pass through to a forward. We have profligated on the middle 4 for long enough and this season was the one it finally cost us. Its been coming for years and Stans man on his galloping horse could see it. Sadly those with the ability to deal with it didn't.

[Dark Cloud]

No matter who we played up front, we didn't score enough. Let's face it we could have played a forward 3 of Kane, Son and Vardy and we still wouldn't have scored enough. Until we address the midfield of Cork, Westwood, Stephens and Brownhill it will continue to be the case. No pace. No creativity. No ability to pick a pass through to a forward. We have profligated on the middle 4 for long enough and this season was the one it finally cost us. Its been coming for years and Stans man on his galloping horse could see it. Sadly those with the ability to deal with it didn't.

This! Whilst Collins, Roberts and Cornet were clearly excellent business last summer, the issue of central midfield was left to fester and it is imo the biggest single reason why we got relegated. Very, very poor from us and from Pace/ALK and absolutely nothing to do with Garlick or anyone else, as they had whole summer window there and blew it.

[DCWat]

This! Whilst Collins, Roberts and Cornet were clearly excellent business last summer, the issue of central midfield was left to fester and it is imo the biggest single reason why we got relegated. Very, very poor from us and from Pace/ALK and absolutely nothing to do with Garlick or anyone else, as they had whole summer window there and blew it.

It baffled me that the last summer window was lauded by plenty on here. It showed signs of improvement but ultimately, and obviously, it was way off the mark in terms of addressing what we needed.

We’ve also regularly started seasons poorly - I lay much of that at our apparent inability to get deals done quickly enough.

[Burnley1989]

This really was a season that despite our obvious weaknesses we could have survived. That disappoints me.
No one should deny that Michael Jackson and his team did a wonderful job getting us to that last game. Neither should anyone deny that Sean Dyche was the architect for our demise on the field with his poor tactics and team selection.
The psychology in the last few days? Good enough to get us a point in a difficult away game at Villa. This suggested that the players were in the right zone. However the celebrations by the players after that Villa game worried me at the time.
I think the reality of the occasion on the last day got to some of the players and nerves took over. The obvious evidence being the panic handball just after the dithering in our box that led to the corner.
Newcastle’s second goal released the nerves but by then it was too late for a team with limited goal scoring qualities.

I honestly don’t think the players over celebrated at all and I was on row 3, if anything I was wanting to see more passion, it was fairly muted. Just shows how fans see things differently

[claret59]

Leeds had a focus. Only a win would do. For us there were a number of possibilities. I had to make do with watching the game on MOD and managed to go the whole day without hearing any of the results or how teams weer doing but when I saw the team sheet at the start of MOD and how we were lined up I just expected us to lose and Leeds to win. MJ did a good job in the timescale he had but did not have the experience to see it through. Burnley should have had the same focus as Leeds viz. a win at all costs and start that way.

[Goddy]

This thread has become a bit more of a review of the season (claret59 most recently excepted)

My point, at the start, was that despite everything, we still had the outcome in our own hands with one game to go.

I'm wondering what the mentality might have been that thought doing anything else other than going all out for the win against Newcastle, was the right way to go?

Just win (or at least go for the win) surely was the only way to go?

[beddie]

However good or bad we set up you can’t legislate for someone trying to defend the ball by throwing his hand towards it, especially in such a crucial match, having said that unless MJ and his team could have got through to half time at 0-0 and then changed the system we were doomed anyway. In MJ’s defence he had very little to pick from up front.

[Claret Toni]

Is it just me who thinks the biggest mistake was allowing Cornet to take the penalty at West Ham?

[NL Claret]

Not sure if previously mentioned but thought for a large part of the season the late goal Leeds scored at TM could have been costly. A game we should have won if took our chances or simply seen the game out.

[dougcollins]

The Richarlison delayed charge this morning for that flare that I’ve separately posted is a good example of where we put ourselves in a position where other clubs would start benefitting from favourable decisions due to their size and we, in coming from behind, couldn’t do much to stay above it in the table.

It was basically how the govt dealt with the Grey report - declare there's an ongoing police investigation, so any action is delayed until most people don't care any more.

[boatshed bill]

Is it just me who thinks the biggest mistake was allowing Cornet to take the penalty at West Ham?

No,
i'd say the biggest mistake was giving Sean Dyche a four year contract.

[elwaclaret]

No,
i'd say the biggest mistake was giving Sean Dyche a four year contract.

It is hard to argue. He came across less edgy and more carefree, once he was on a long contract. In hindsight that was possibly the edge.

[boatshed bill]

It is hard to argue. He came across less edgy and more carefree, once he was on a long contract. In hindsight that was possibly the edge.

I'm not saying hat he shouldn't have had another contract offer (he may well have deserved one), just that 4 years is a bit much.

[Healeywoodclaret]

We didn't expect for several players nor to turn up
Dwight, Connor and Josh Brownhill were all not up for the challenge and you need everyone up to win the most important game in years
In the end we got a gutless surrender against a very average Newcastle team.

I agree it was a very average Newcastle Team and display from them. Based on our performance that last day we did deserve to go down. Gutless no, more burnt out with tough games at Tottenham and Villa Sunday and Thursday night. I watched our team troop off after 95 minutes at Villa and I just knew they couldn't find that again by Sunday afternoon.

[Healeywoodclaret]

I'm still struggling at how many people believe its rigged

We weren't good enough, and didn't invest (for whatever reason) and we went down

Not rigged but we were throughout our time in the Premier League treated like the Ginger Step Kids. Always the Premier League Gatecrashers.

[Newcastleclaret93]

Unfortunately big moments define seasons and we lost nearly every big moment.

From pope dropping a sitter at newcastle, Cornet missing the penalty at West Ham, Weghorst missing that great chance at Villa, Collins trying to catch the ball against newcastle.

To put it simply we lost our strong chin and that’s why we went down.

(Along with the usual poor recruitment etc…)