I've seen some grievances expressed on the approach to build-up play VK most likely hopes to apply to the team, with some on here outright dismissing it — namely, building up from the back, or 'tippy-tappy'. We've been having this discussion in football since Spain and Barcelona of a decade ago popularised it, and it seems we're committing to this approach. This approach is a bit of a culture shock for Burnley. We attempted it for a short while, unsuccessfully, under Howe, but in the history of our club, and especially in recent times, this is relatively novel to us. So with that in mind, and without saying anything those who are more patient and amenable towards the approach don't already know, I wonder if I could make a case on here for faffing about at the back and building up attacks from the goalkeeper, and why the obvious and inevitable frustrations that come with it are sort of 'priced-in' to the approach. This is a plead for patience.

As you know, this is all about control of possession. Let's take some arbitrary possession numbers. 40% of 90 minutes is 36 minutes. 60% of 90 mins is 54 minutes. So if we take a 60/40% split in possession, a possession split I feel is reasonable for teams that commit wholly to a possession based approach, the team that dominates possession controls the ball for an extra 18 minutes, or one-fifth of the duration of the game, more than its opponent. Let's say we're this team. This is 18 minutes more where we dictate the pace of the game, where we force the opposition to defend. Where we dictate the shape of the pitch, its width. To a significant degree we dictate the effort required of the opposition by targeting its weakest players, cleaving open its defensive shape when the moment is right. We control when sprints are made, when then best suits us, and who they best suit. We force sprints from the opposition. This is more than ball possession. In basic terms, we have a degree of control over opposition energy. We can wear them down, as indeed happened to Burnley almost every time we played a high-possession team in the PL.

Team aptitude in possession doesn't only allow you more control over your attacks, it doesn't only allow you to dominate the ball: you have control over the opposition plyers' lungs and legs.

This is the long-game approach. If we can't batter down gate, we'll deplete a team of its energy then walk the ball in. It gives us a contingency against stubborn defences.

So this approach first requires ball control. As everyone knows, this is the justification for tippy-tappy goalkeepers and defenders, but it's worth reiterating, because it's not a fashion, it's a component in a machine. Mistakes cost goals. This is indisputable. But these mistakes (because all footballers make them) need to be balanced and weighted against the physical control we're able to exert over games. We often think of having high possession as giving a team tactical control, which is true, but not enough is made, I feel, of the physical advantages it gives. Domination of possession conduces to higher-intensity attacks. Energy is used wisely. Sprints are intelligent and done on our terms. The physical advantages it gives a team cannot be overstated.

And so for this to work most effectively, every part of this approach needs to be committed to unapologetically. It's tempting to demand safe, long kicks from the goalkeeper, but this is a halfway house approach. This exposes us to contested aerial dues, which is to say, makes us subordinate to the physicality of the opposition. To compete in these moments we need physical athletes to win these battles. But the kind of players who can reliably win these battles while also possessing the technical skills to retain and move the ball well are rare, and certainly not often found at clubs like ours. If our strategy to dominate games is reliant on technical players and not physical beasts (because rarely do you get both in one player), it means we need to reduce the number of instances during a game of these contested balls, especially so in the aerial duels where the ball can still be loose after it hits the ground. To limit these duels we must control the ball as much as we can on every square inch of the pitch, including the 18 yard box (which we will use as bait/traps to invite pressure and stretch teams).

Mistakes will happen, we'll concede stupid goals. But when sat in your seat, understandable frustrated at watching us build up from deep areas, I'd make an appeal to remember these few things: firstly, this approach, when it works, dominates physically, and this is not stated enough. Secondly, for this to work effectively, we need to commit wholly. if you don't commit wholly to a tactical style, you don't commit at all. Think what can be done with those extra 18 minutes I talked about above. This time is what goalkeeper based build-up attains to.

Better then just tw@t1ng up to Woods.

I'd agree with most of what you said. I think in practice we will concede more goals than we are used to, but that *should* be balanced out by scoring more than we're used to.

I just know the moaning git behind me in the Bob Lord is going to have kittens if we do play this way

"Noooooo!"

"Bloody hell (insert player)"

11 minutes, not 18 minutes in the original calculation.

And Howe’s football wasn’t that progressive. It was possession in none dangerous areas. I’d be all for a passing progressive style, less for possession for possessions sake in non threatening areas.

The meltdown on here the first time it goes wrong will really be something to see.

bfcjg wrote: ↑

Fri Jul 15, 2022 5:03 pm

Better then just tw@t1ng up to Woods.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ all day long. I know these young lads will make mistakes but I'd rather that than aimless hoofing

I'm really looking forward to it.

As you say, mistakes will be made, but hopefully patience will be showed and we'll make it a success.

I'm already dreading reading the posts on here after a mistake, though. "Stop fannying about with it and whack it up there".

Surely the aim of professional sport is to achieve the best results possible? Mixed football has been the best way for Burnley FC to achieve that over the last decade. I continue to be surprised, and intrigued, at the complete abandonment of approaches that have delivered for the club.

if anyone thinks we'll be playing tippy tappy stuff then they haven't watched many Anderlecht games

Personally I think variations on "mixed football" are what we should be aiming for. The problem with Dyche at times was that he reverted into the safe confines of the more direct approach. The season we finished 7th and the 2 promotion seasons we played some really good stuff.

dandeclaret wrote: ↑

Fri Jul 15, 2022 5:19 pm

I continue to be surprised, and intrigued, at the complete abandonment of approaches that have delivered for the club.

The style of play we employed over the last 18-24 months delivered terrible results, terrible performances, and relegation.

I think that's why we're looking to change things.

I'm obviously conditioned by years of Dyche but I'd hope we keep it a bit mixed tbh, at least while the new back line bed in.

There were times we played Arsenal under Emery and Arteta where their insistence on playing out from the back 100% of the time gave us an edge that we would not have had if they'd have just initiated their domination of possession in the middle of the pitch after we'd challenged for headers then given the ball away.

I worry about the crowd if we're passing round the 18yd box on every goal kick, and I'm not convinced it's absolutely necessary in dominating possession.

lucs86 wrote: ↑

Fri Jul 15, 2022 5:31 pm

I worry about the crowd if we're passing round the 18yd box on every goal kick, and I'm not convinced it's absolutely necessary in dominating possession.

Anderlecht completely mixed up their play, just like City aren't afraid of hitting a long pass if the situation allows

bfcjg wrote: ↑

Fri Jul 15, 2022 5:03 pm

Better then just tw@t1ng up to Woods.

Whoever Woods is.

fidelcastro wrote: ↑

Fri Jul 15, 2022 5:45 pm

Whoever Woods is.

where the ball would have ended up had we not had a stand to stop it leaving the ground

fidelcastro wrote: ↑

Fri Jul 15, 2022 5:45 pm

Whoever Woods is.

One of these 2 I reckon….

dandeclaret wrote: ↑

Fri Jul 15, 2022 5:19 pm

Surely the aim of professional sport is to achieve the best results possible? Mixed football has been the best way for Burnley FC to achieve that over the last decade. I continue to be surprised, and intrigued, at the complete abandonment of approaches that have delivered for the club.

An abandonment started under the previous manager/regime when they stopped playing the mix of longball/quick passing football that took us to Europe in favour of the turgid one-dimensional rubbish that - combined with rancidly inept recruitment - took us back to the Championship?

I really am not ar*ed if the ball is passed 35 times across 11 players or launched from the keeper and headed in after a single bounce.

Of course I will enjoy a more attractive brand of football but not overly much if it isn't effective.

Outscoring the opposition is the aim of the game after all.

I’m sat at Shrewsbury and the emphasis on kicking (and variance of kicking) above claiming in the goalkeeping warm up is very noticeable.

jedi_master wrote: ↑

Fri Jul 15, 2022 6:20 pm

I’m sat at Shrewsbury and the emphasis on kicking (and variance of kicking) above claiming in the goalkeeping warm up is very noticeable.

I bet Barnes is wondering what the **** is going on!!

I hope we sign a keeper before the season starts....Bailey Farrell or what ever he's called isn't good enough.

Fair play to Burnley, pace and kompany they have defiantly created some noise around the club and attracted some players we prob wouldn’t have attracted without kompany this season we are either gonna be unbelievable or terrible with pretty much the back 4/5 including keeper gone it’s very much a new era see how it goes!

dandeclaret wrote: ↑

Fri Jul 15, 2022 5:19 pm

Surely the aim of professional sport is to achieve the best results possible? Mixed football has been the best way for Burnley FC to achieve that over the last decade. I continue to be surprised, and intrigued, at the complete abandonment of approaches that have delivered for the club.

To be fair you haven’t seen us play yet so it’s a bit early to say we’ve completely abandoned the “approaches that have delivered for the club”.

Not sure if anyone commented but possession isn’t what people necessarily think it is (at least these days)

It’s total number of passes a team makes as a % of the total
Number of passes in the game.

So if you play direct you’ll always appear to have ‘less possession’ - it is a bit of a pointless stat

As for playing out from the back - i believe in mixing play up depending on what the opposition is or isn’t doing.. if it means drawing them in and getting the opposition to over commit then stinging them with a channel ball then excellent… playing out for playing outs sake can be a bit daft

I'm excited to see us rip sides apart for once instead of boring hoofing it forward like amateurs.

KRBFC wrote: ↑

Fri Jul 15, 2022 7:45 pm

I'm excited to see us rip sides apart for once instead of boring hoofing it forward like amateurs.

that's my genuine hope, if we can add Delap it could be bloody fantastic

Vegas Claret wrote: ↑

Fri Jul 15, 2022 7:47 pm

that's my genuine hope, if we can add Delap it could be bloody fantastic

O'Hare and Delap and we're serious contenders imo, providing we keep Mcneil and sell Cornet.

KRBFC wrote: ↑

Fri Jul 15, 2022 8:10 pm

O'Hare and Delap and we're serious contenders imo, providing we keep Mcneil and sell Cornet.

hope so mate, genuinely not been this excited for years

Enola Gay wrote: ↑

Fri Jul 15, 2022 6:08 pm

An abandonment started under the previous manager/regime when they stopped playing the mix of longball/quick passing football that took us to Europe in favour of the turgid one-dimensional rubbish that - combined with rancidly inept recruitment - took us back to the Championship?

Is the start of a glorious return to these pages, Enola?

TsarBomba wrote: ↑

Fri Jul 15, 2022 9:10 pm

Is the start of a glorious return to these pages, Enola?

He was waiting for Scotland to qualify.

Playing out from the back isn't some kind of new-fangled self-desruct strategy unless done by the elite, any more than Ben Mee's vacant lumping up the park being the preserve of the alleged dinosaur clubs.

It'll be interesting to see if VK can staff the place with players who have the wherewithal to merge the two skillsets and the nous to apply them appropriately.

Jury's out.

Considering that the average 'ball in play' time is around 55 minutes per game it's more important to keep hold of it.

Jel wrote: ↑

Sun Jul 17, 2022 10:28 pm

Considering that the average 'ball in play' time is around 55 minutes per game it's more important to keep hold of it.

That depends what we're doing with it. Both sides get the same number of possessions in the game. If one side spends their possessions passing it round at the back until they lose the ball, while the other spends their possessions lumping it forward hopefully in faint hopes their centre forward will get it, then the lumping team is more likely to win simply because they get the ball into an area where they might score. The pass-it-round team needs to have a purpose behind the passing and, like every other team that hopes to win in whatever style, has to get it into the box to score the goals.

JohnMac wrote: ↑

Fri Jul 15, 2022 6:18 pm

I really am not ar*ed if the ball is passed 35 times across 11 players or launched from the keeper and headed in after a single bounce.

Of course I will enjoy a more attractive brand of football but not overly much if it isn't effective.

Outscoring the opposition is the aim of the game after all.

If it isn't effective, it isn't entertaining. Brighton had a run of 6 home games without a goal last season, and the number of people on their message board claiming to be entertained by it was negligible.

I'm not sure which is more boring. Hopeless hoofing or hopeless tiki-taka.

Sure both can be effective and if we do tiki-taka I hope it's effective for us but jeez it's boring to watch constant short passes all the time. What Barcelona and Man City have done is certainly a master class and work of art that's changed football a lot but it's really not my cup of tea personally.

I hope Kompany lets the players mix their play sometimes.

superdimitri wrote: ↑

Mon Jul 18, 2022 5:09 am

I'm not sure which is more boring. Hopeless hoofing or hopeless tiki-taka.

Sure both can be effective and if we do tiki-taka I hope it's effective for us but jeez it's boring to watch constant short passes all the time. What Barcelona and Man City have done is certainly a master class and work of art that's changed football a lot but it's really not my cup of tea personally.

I hope Kompany lets the players mix their play sometimes.

Have to say, there were parts of the Shrewsbury game I found quite boring to watch. Wasn’t sure if it was because it was a pre-season friendly or just that I’ve been conditioned to be impatient in how quickly we get the ball forward.

I posted on the thread we had “no goal threat”, then we banged one in. That summed it up really. You watch the team have a lot of possession a long way from goal, then suddenly break them down. I can imagine it’d be frustrating if you don’t see that breakthrough though.

As others have said, I hope to see a mix. Mainly possession-based football, but with the keeper able to go long when needed & get it forward quickly when we need a goal too!

I can already hear certain sections of the Bob Lord screaming “JUST GET RID OF IT!”

DCWat wrote: ↑

Fri Jul 15, 2022 6:56 pm

I bet Barnes is wondering what the **** is going on!!

Barnes is a clever player. He will be fine.

If we can move with pace and score great and there is no garm in keeping the ball. However, keeping it and doing nothing is horrendous to watch. The biggest yawn.
Fingers crossed all will be well in the Championship.

Football is a results business and If we aren't getting results whatever the style of football we will all be getting on the managers back, that's the way it is

It did look good when Spain and Barcelona started this trend, but only because they had the talent to do it.
It's been hilarious watching lesser teams try to copy it.

Burnley pass back to the keeper and welly it. Everton make 8 or 9 passes between the back 4, pass it to Pickford who wellys it. It might look different but the results the same.

I've nothing against it, so long as we aren't pedantic. There are always situations that require a welly, or even putting the ball in row Z.

I like tiki taka, as long as it’s not deep on our own half

The theory is good, particularly for the Championship.

The trouble comes in the Premier League when you're playing teams who are much better at that style of play. However good we get at dominating possession in the Championship we're not going to do it against Man City or Arsenal so we are then missing that other element, that physicality, that gave us a different edge.

Obviously then it comes down to how many Premier League teams could we dominate possession against and will it make much difference against the rest compared to playing other ways?

aggi wrote: ↑

Mon Jul 18, 2022 9:57 am

The theory is good, particularly for the Championship.

The trouble comes in the Premier League when you're playing teams who are much better at that style of play. However good we get at dominating possession in the Championship we're not going to do it against Man City or Arsenal so we are then missing that other element, that physicality, that gave us a different edge.

Obviously then it comes down to how many Premier League teams could we dominate possession against and will it make much difference against the rest compared to playing other ways?

There has to be elements that are adapted when reaching the Prem. Brentford were known to play fast, attacking football in the Championship, playing out from the back etc... last season they definitely went slightly more direct but still kept an emphasis on playing through the lines. Leeds are maybe an example, under Bielsa, of a side who just played the same way from Champ to Prem, did very well first season but then it cost Bielsa his job in the second. Brighton have been very well coached under Potter and they are regularly in the top 6 for possession stats - I also seem to remember Swansea for a while were known as a possession side in the PL, it was when they steered away from it that they dropped. As Kompany said in one of his interviews here, recruitment is the key to success for any club, if you recruit players who are technically good enough at that level and it's well coached, you can still use the same principles.

We definitely need an upgrade on Norris . He looked awful on Friday with crosses and playing out from the back .

Norris and Crosses

I can't help thinking the way VK is going about this is like putting the cart before the horse. He has some system he wants to play and is bringing in players he thinks can play this way (quite a few of whom I find it hard to believe he would know that well), as well as being able to adapt our current players. Surely it's better to work out what the players are capable of and use those talents. Or at least some combination of the two.

He therefore seems to have this idea that there is a certain way to play. I would guess we all think this is the way that Anderlecht played under his management. Whilst he apparently made progress there there is no proof that he has found a winning formula (nor that he hasn't of course). Even if it does work in Belgium why would it work here in The Championship. If it doesn't work he will have to adapt - which I believe he did to a degree in Belgium.

We are seeing one big experiment by VK that no-one really knows will work, but at Burnley FC's expense.

Interesting but scary.

I think we’d all be keen to see more academy players making it into the first team and they’d be better prepared for this if they are able to play in a style that fits with the first team, which may now be this build from the back model. I don’t see any U23/academy games so can anyone say how they approach games in terms of style? Will it fit well with the VK approach?