https://www.burnleyfootballclub.com/con ... tegory-two

Exciting times?

Ah well, hopefully we will be good to go next season with a cat 1

Embarrassing that this was allowed to happen.

RickyBobby wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 26, 2022 5:55 pm

Embarrassing that this was allowed to happen.

Beyond embarrassing after all the good work was done by Jon Pepper's team.

A bit of a dig at Sean Dyche at the end?

Fair enough, glad to hear they have the intention of regaining Cat 1. Sounds to me like it may or may not have been awarded in the first place given it was during peak Covid.

RVclaret wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 26, 2022 5:58 pm

Fair enough, glad to hear they have the intention of regaining Cat 1. Sounds to me like it may or may not have been awarded in the first place given it was during peak Covid.

We would have been awarded Cat 1 regardless of the pandemic

ClaretTony wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 26, 2022 5:59 pm

We would have been awarded Cat 1 regardless of the pandemic

How could you possibly know that for sure?

There were no in person audits.

I've always wondered why they say this........

'Burnley FC will be making no further comment at this time'

Whinge all you want, we're not bothered.

RVclaret wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 26, 2022 6:00 pm

How could you possibly know that for sure?

I speak to enough people and I am very, very confident in what I've said.

Another ALK masterclass

ClaretTony wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 26, 2022 6:00 pm

I speak to enough people and I am very, very confident in what I've said.

Unless that person was a PGAAC auditor, it would have been guesswork. May well have been well-informed guesswork, but guesswork all the same.

What was the reason it fell to Cat2? I seem to recall something about insufficient staff numbers but am not sure that was the reason.

Toby Carvery wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 26, 2022 6:07 pm

Unless that person was a PGAAC auditor, it would have been guesswork. May well have been well-informed guesswork, but guesswork all the same.

Absolutely, but there have been changes in the last year that have caused the problems with staff losses and didn't we run for part of last season without the required safeguarding staff.

We were audited in 2020, it just wasn't an onsite audit but I do know there was every confidence that we would have acquired the licence had an onsite audit taken place.

This isn't good, and it needs rectifying ASAP if we are to keep hold of our emerging talent.

Over to you ALK and AP to sort this mess out.

tiger76 wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 26, 2022 6:13 pm

This isn't good, and it needs rectifying ASAP if we are to keep hold of our emerging talent.

Over to you ALK and AP to sort this mess out.

Don’t hold your breath

Unfortunately Cat One status is one of those things you can't loan from Australia or get in installments. Its kind of like surviving in the Premier League - either you do it or you don't.

BurnleyFC wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 26, 2022 5:58 pm

A bit of a dig at Sean Dyche at the end?

Seems it. Pathetic too.
Under Dyche, the club built up the means to get to Cat 1. McNeil became a first teamer from our academy. O'Neill and Benson featured in a small handful of senior games and the latter sold for a fee. As the article alludes to, a handful of others got a first team debut here or there, and when you look at where most of our ex academy players have ended up, there's only really Callum Styles you'd say has gone onto be a player who might ever have done a job and even then he's a Championship squad player. We had Tom Anderson who's done alright at League One-Two, Cameron Dummigan and Alex Whitmore who've had a couple years in League One-Two, and a host of non-league players and players signed age 18-21 who ended up at League One-Two level.
Under Howe/Laws, nobody came from our Academy but Shay McCartan, who had a few seasons in League One-Two and now plays in Ireland. Cameron Howieson looked like a future star at 17, got fast-tracked into the NZ setup and it all fell apart. Chris Lynch, Mehdi Lazaar, Nik Kudiersky, Chris Anderson, Michael King & Dominic Knowles didn't exactly go on to much.
Under Coyle, Jay broke in and went on to big things for us and beyond. Alex MacDonald became a League Two player. Wes Fletcher just about League Two, and handful of nonleague players plus Joe McKee who had a run in the Scottish lower leagues.
Under Cotterill we let Marc Pugh go who went on to become a solid enough Championship/lower Prem player, Neal Trotman who ended up a a League One defender. And a host of players in his first season came from the academy for necessity, then did very little after leaving us.
Under Ternent, we developed Chaplow from 2002-03 and that was about it.

So in the nearly 10 years under Dyche, we developed 1 Premier League player, profited on 1 Championship squad player, had Aidan O'Neill not quite make it, and missed out on a Championship squad player. The rest have settled as lower league or non league.
In the 10 years before Dyche, we developed 1 Premier League player, 1 Championship player, missed out on 1 Championship-lower Prem player, missed out on a League One player, and had a number of lower league players.
It's not exactly a glaring underperformance when you consider the calibre we are looking for to break in under Dyche was significantly higher for most of that time, than the calibre that would have made the team in the previous ten years. Rodriguez for McNeil, Benson for Chaplow, Styles for Trotman, there's yet to be a Marc Pugh who slipped through the net. Also when you consider the rebuilding efforts we had to undergo after where the youth academy was at in 2012. If there's notable successses I've missed out on that illustrate a bigger gulf between the two periods, please do let me know, but from what I can see- the Academy has performed about as you'd expect. La Masia and Clairefontaine are 2 exceptions to the rule and one of those isn't even a conventional club Academy. There's this idea we've had this glut of great prospects that were stifled under Dyche and I just don't see where it comes from. What I do see is that with our Academy dropping down to Cat 2, it will be harder to find, attract, or keep, those sorts of prospect.

Disappointing news and against what appears to be the club's vision. Questions ought to be asked about the root causes, although I guess they wouldn't be answered.

RVclaret wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 26, 2022 5:58 pm

Fair enough, glad to hear they have the intention of regaining Cat 1. Sounds to me like it may or may not have been awarded in the first place given it was during peak Covid.

God you are tiresome with this crap

Realised I didn't include Dunne in the "joined at 18-21 but didn't make it" category- sold him on for a fee, he's just now establishing himself as a Championship player. Could still improve but doesn't scream "We should have dropped Mee/Tarks for him".
In general, our Academy record for the first 5-6 years of Dyche's tenure was pretty similar to the majority of the previous years' prospects, and then during the final 3-4 years we started seeing a few more Championship or thereabouts come through plus McNeil. We were trending in the right direction, Kompany might well be more willing to give Academy players gametime which continues that trend, but the downgrade reverses it, no matter what people say.

spt_claret wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 26, 2022 6:49 pm

Seems it. Pathetic too.
Under Dyche, the club built up the means to get to Cat 1. McNeil became a first teamer from our academy. O'Neill and Benson featured in a small handful of senior games and the latter sold for a fee. As the article alludes to, a handful of others got a first team debut here or there, and when you look at where most of our ex academy players have ended up, there's only really Callum Styles you'd say has gone onto be a player who might ever have done a job and even then he's a Championship squad player. We had Tom Anderson who's done alright at League One-Two, Cameron Dummigan and Alex Whitmore who've had a couple years in League One-Two, and a host of non-league players and players signed age 18-21 who ended up at League One-Two level.
Under Howe/Laws, nobody came from our Academy but Shay McCartan, who had a few seasons in League One-Two and now plays in Ireland. Cameron Howieson looked like a future star at 17, got fast-tracked into the NZ setup and it all fell apart. Chris Lynch, Mehdi Lazaar, Nik Kudiersky, Chris Anderson, Michael King & Dominic Knowles didn't exactly go on to much.
Under Coyle, Jay broke in and went on to big things for us and beyond. Alex MacDonald became a League Two player. Wes Fletcher just about League Two, and handful of nonleague players plus Joe McKee who had a run in the Scottish lower leagues.
Under Cotterill we let Marc Pugh go who went on to become a solid enough Championship/lower Prem player, Neal Trotman who ended up a a League One defender. And a host of players in his first season came from the academy for necessity, then did very little after leaving us.
Under Ternent, we developed Chaplow from 2002-03 and that was about it.

So in the nearly 10 years under Dyche, we developed 1 Premier League player, profited on 1 Championship squad player, had Aidan O'Neill not quite make it, and missed out on a Championship squad player. The rest have settled as lower league or non league.
In the 10 years before Dyche, we developed 1 Premier League player, 1 Championship player, missed out on 1 Championship-lower Prem player, missed out on a League One player, and had a number of lower league players.
It's not exactly a glaring underperformance when you consider the calibre we are looking for to break in under Dyche was significantly higher for most of that time, than the calibre that would have made the team in the previous ten years. Rodriguez for McNeil, Benson for Chaplow, Styles for Trotman, there's yet to be a Marc Pugh who slipped through the net. Also when you consider the rebuilding efforts we had to undergo after where the youth academy was at in 2012. If there's notable successses I've missed out on that illustrate a bigger gulf between the two periods, please do let me know, but from what I can see- the Academy has performed about as you'd expect. La Masia and Clairefontaine are 2 exceptions to the rule and one of those isn't even a conventional club Academy. There's this idea we've had this glut of great prospects that were stifled under Dyche and I just don't see where it comes from. What I do see is that with our Academy dropping down to Cat 2, it will be harder to find, attract, or keep, those sorts of prospect.

Not disagreeing with anything you say but maybe to add in McCann and Lafferty in the Cotterill years? Though not sure how old they were when we originally signed them for them to be "homegrown" talents.

RVclaret wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 26, 2022 5:58 pm

Fair enough, glad to hear they have the intention of regaining Cat 1. Sounds to me like it may or may not have been awarded in the first place given it was during peak Covid.

Intentions are all fine and dandy, however they'll be judged on actions not words, and this downgrade happened on their watch, so let's see how they intend to regain Cat 1 status.

tiger76 wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 26, 2022 7:00 pm

Intentions are all fine and dandy, however they'll be judged on actions not words, and this downgrade happened on their watch, so let's see how they intend to regain Cat 1 status.

Don’t disagree with that.

claretburns wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 26, 2022 6:57 pm

Not disagreeing with anything you say but maybe to add in McCann and Lafferty in the Cotterill years? Though not sure how old they were when we originally signed them for them to be "homegrown" talents.

Very good shout actually, can't believe I missed them. So you'd say that's another 2 Championship players really in that era. Fair point if you want to argue we had more Championship calibre players then- but again, if we're looking at Premier League quality, it's another matter.

Having read the statement, it seems the awarding of the cat 1 status was provisional. So we haven’t actually lost anything have we? We were granted cat 1 provisionally, not properly by my understanding. We were granted this without proper audit, and in the middle of covid. Having been audited properly, it seems we are short of cat 1 in certain areas. Maybe covid has actually had an impact on what we have managed to achieve. It’s had an impact everywhere else but it seems by some reactions we aren’t allowed to be affected. We are now working to address it. We are cat 2 now, which is one category above where we were. So an improvement.
These things take time, and maybe it looked from afar that we were just about there (hence the provisional award) it turns out we haven’t managed to do enough thru covid and after proper and thorough auditing, it turns out we aren’t ready for cat 1. I’m sure we will be tho… just needs a little more time.
If anyone wants to feel embarrassed by this, by all means crack on. I’m happy to give it a bit longer - another 12-18 months maybe to make the final improvements and see where we are then.

KRBFC wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 26, 2022 6:53 pm

God you are tiresome with this crap

Multiple threads you’ve insulted people today.

bobinho wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 26, 2022 7:17 pm

Having read the statement, it seems the awarding of the cat 1 status was provisional. So we haven’t actually lost anything have we? We were granted cat 1 provisionally, not properly by my understanding. We were granted this without proper audit, and in the middle of covid. Having been audited properly, it seems we are short of cat 1 in certain areas. Maybe covid has actually had an impact on what we have managed to achieve. It’s had an impact everywhere else but it seems by some reactions we aren’t allowed to be affected. We are now working to address it. We are cat 2 now, which is one category above where we were. So an improvement.
These things take time, and maybe it looked from afar that we were just about there (hence the provisional award) it turns out we haven’t managed to do enough thru covid and after proper and thorough auditing, it turns out we aren’t ready for cat 1. I’m sure we will be tho… just needs a little more time.
If anyone wants to feel embarrassed by this, by all means crack on. I’m happy to give it a bit longer - another 12-18 months maybe to make the final improvements and see where we are then.

An excellent and sensible post

Swizzlestick wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 26, 2022 7:23 pm

Multiple threads you’ve insulted people today.

Not sure that’s an insult?

We don't have an official view from the club on the reasons why the provisional license was not made permanent. That is key and the fact the club has chosen to go silent on the reasons for that doesn't help.

Unless we have such detail, some people will speculate that we wouldn't have been awarded it two years ago under the normal process, whereas others, like me, will be of the view that there has been a deterioration in the last year or so.

Swizzlestick wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 26, 2022 7:23 pm

Multiple threads you’ve insulted people today.

Where did I insult him? He knows what he's doing.

Newcastleclaret93 wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 26, 2022 7:28 pm

Not sure that’s an insult?

Describing somebody’s post as ‘crap’ with no explanation is an insult. It’s also immature, contributes nothing of note to the debate and derails threads. If he doesn’t agree with the stated opinion, give some reasons why.

You may not like RV’s stance but at least he’s polite - try it sometime - and has conceded that we’ll need to see what happens.

Swizzlestick wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 26, 2022 7:23 pm

Multiple threads you’ve insulted people today.

Tbf its not really an insult

Very disappointing news, and the statement lacks class all round. We’ll see if your decisions have greatly enhanced the pathway to a successful team, or just the latest cosmetic decision.

I sincerely hope that the departure of Jon Pepper was because he sought another role, and not because ALK decided they wanted their own man just for the sake of having their own man.

If it's the latter, then hopefully they'll be reflecting on why their strategy has gone so badly wrong and considering how they will put this right.

Obviously not good news but its not going to make any difference to the first team is it.

claret2018 wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 26, 2022 7:39 pm

Obviously not good news but its not going to make any difference to the first team is it.

Not today or tomorrow, no.

In a few years time? Different story.

claret2018 wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 26, 2022 7:39 pm

Obviously not good news but its not going to make any difference to the first team is it.

Depends doesn’t it?

If we stay in the championship for more than a couple of seasons it’s more than likely it will be the lifeblood of the squad.

It does appear that were granted the Cat 1 status on a provisional basis only. Agreed the statement isn’t the most professional release the club have ever done.

Jon Pepper currently a consultant for a team in Nigeria and working with Chesterfield women’s team.

Newcastleclaret93 wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 26, 2022 7:41 pm

Depends doesn’t it?

If we stay in the championship for more than a couple of seasons it’s more than likely it will be the lifeblood of the squad.

If we stay in the championship for more than a couple of years, there’s not a cat in hell’s chance that we will be going for Cat 1

Gutted, but not surprised.

At least the board now know that pussyfooting with the Academy is risky. Hopefully we learn the lesson and get cat 1 back ASAP.

DCWat wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 26, 2022 7:59 pm

If we stay in the championship for more than a couple of years, there’s not a cat in hell’s chance that we will be going for Cat 1

I would like to think we would as it’s the only way a club like ours sustainably stay in that league

bobinho wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 26, 2022 7:17 pm

Having read the statement, it seems the awarding of the cat 1 status was provisional. So we haven’t actually lost anything have we? We were granted cat 1 provisionally, not properly by my understanding. We were granted this without proper audit, and in the middle of covid. Having been audited properly, it seems we are short of cat 1 in certain areas. Maybe covid has actually had an impact on what we have managed to achieve. It’s had an impact everywhere else but it seems by some reactions we aren’t allowed to be affected. We are now working to address it. We are cat 2 now, which is one category above where we were. So an improvement.
These things take time, and maybe it looked from afar that we were just about there (hence the provisional award) it turns out we haven’t managed to do enough thru covid and after proper and thorough auditing, it turns out we aren’t ready for cat 1. I’m sure we will be tho… just needs a little more time.
If anyone wants to feel embarrassed by this, by all means crack on. I’m happy to give it a bit longer - another 12-18 months maybe to make the final improvements and see where we are then.

Some inaccuracies there. We were audited but it had to be done remotely because of the pandemic but there was absolutely no reason to believe we would not have passed that audit. Given Jon Pepper’s previous role I’d have been astonished had we not passed that audit.

As for being better off - no. We weren’t cat 3 when we got that provisional licence. We’d been cat 2 for three years, so we are not above or better than where we were.

This is a big setback, particularly for a club who are supposedly promoting youth football.

So, the club was advised to continue pursuing category 1 but no mention that the club itself is actually trying to?

Not sure how anyone can dress this up as anything other than a monumental cock up. Let’s hope it’s resolved quickly.

Newcastleclaret93 wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 26, 2022 8:05 pm

I would like to think we would as it’s the only way a club like ours sustainably stay in that league

I’d rather we had it too. I just don’t see how it would be afforded if we’re having to further cut our cloth, the more years we spend in this division.

Having quality youngsters come through would great. It would though be a long process. Five years, ten years perhaps?

superdimitri wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 26, 2022 8:11 pm

So, the club was advised to continue pursuing category 1 but no mention that the club itself is actually trying to?

“The Club’s intention is to continue forward to regain Category One status”

superdimitri wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 26, 2022 8:11 pm

So, the club was advised to continue pursuing category 1 but no mention that the club itself is actually trying to?

“The Club’s intention is to continue forward to regain Category One status“

Proof is in the pudding obviously.

The argument that we weren't properly Cat 1 anyway seems to me a pretty desperate one to try and deflect some blame away from the owners for their failures here. Even if the argument itself did have merit, we've since had 2 years (18 months of ALK) to make damn well sure that when the next "in person" audit came around, we'd get it properly.

DCWat wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 26, 2022 8:22 pm

I’d rather we had it too. I just don’t see how it would be afforded if we’re having to further cut our cloth, the more years we spend in this division.

Having quality youngsters come through would great. It would though be a long process. Five years, ten years perhaps?

I suspect after a season or two we would find ourselves in a similar position to Blackburn (also cat 1) where the heavily depend on the academy bringing talent through.

I think Blackburn ranked the highest for number of minutes given to academy players last season