Intriguing Athletic article today which we are at the centre of.

Basically asking the question that now we are gone from the PL, is that the end of long ball football in the PL?

The author uses available data to take a look:

https://theathletic.com/3475355/2022/08 ... ign=711528

For behind the paywall you can try:

https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Ft ... n%3D711528

You do wonder from reading that if Dyche would really struggle to find a club at that level now, even championship level will continue to evolve in the same way.

Top manager but unknown weather he could play in a different way.

I don’t really know the answer to that one, it will be interesting though.

Burnley1989 wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:09 am

You do wonder from reading that if Dyche would really struggle to find a club at that level now, even championship level will continue to evolve in the same way.

Top manager but unknown weather he could play in a different way.

I don’t really know the answer to that one, it will be interesting though.

I can assure you that Dyche would have loved for Burnley to play out from the back but we just didn't have the players to risk playing that way. If he was managing Man City, Liverpool etc then his team would be playing it from the back.

Leisure wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:14 am

I can assure you that Dyche would have loved for Burnley to play out from the back but we just didn't have the players to risk playing that way. If he was managing Man City, Liverpool etc then his team would be playing it from the back.

I know what you mean but why are we the only side that didn’t do it, he signed the players, they weren’t inherited.
I’m not knocking him at all because evidently it worked well for us.

I’d love to see him back in the premier league with a decent side and see how his tactics change.

Leisure wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:14 am

I can assure you that Dyche would have loved for Burnley to play out from the back but we just didn't have the players to risk playing that way. If he was managing Man City, Liverpool etc then his team would be playing it from the back.

I think that’s a fair point, however he was in charge nine years and made no attempt to move away from the same system. Was it a case of ‘if it ain’t broke don’t fix it’, not having the necessary funds to make the change required or a manager who was most comfortable with the system he had. For the avoidance of doubt, absolutely love Dyche and his time at the club and he’ll always be a clarets legend in my eyes.

Leisure wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:14 am

I can assure you that Dyche would have loved for Burnley to play out from the back but we just didn't have the players to risk playing that way. If he was managing Man City, Liverpool etc then his team would be playing it from the back.

Not convinced by this argument. He had built his team over many many years. His signings were more physical and athletic than technical. I’m not saying that was a bad thing, it gave us 7 years in the Prem, but also don’t agree he would have played a different way if he could.

Leisure wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:14 am

I can assure you that Dyche would have loved for Burnley to play out from the back but we just didn't have the players to risk playing that way. If he was managing Man City, Liverpool etc then his team would be playing it from the back.

The player bought were his choice, Roberts, Taylor, Cork and Brownhill were here, hoofball was his choice.

Leisure wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:14 am

I can assure you that Dyche would have loved for Burnley to play out from the back but we just didn't have the players to risk playing that way. If he was managing Man City, Liverpool etc then his team would be playing it from the back.

If Dyche wanted to play that way, he could have recruited the players to allow him to play that way. The players we had were Dyches players.

Like most other tactics, it will come back sometime.
It will probably be seen as "direct" and a breath of fresh air.

claretandy wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:18 am

The player bought were his choice, Roberts, Taylor, Cork and Brownhill were here, hoofball was his choice.

His choice was out of nessesity.

boatshed bill wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:19 am

Like most other tactics, it will come back sometime.
It will probably be seen as "direct" and a breath of fresh air.

Except those dinosaurs at Burnley are still playing it out from the back. It’s ‘anti-football’.

gandhisflipflop wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:18 am

If Dyche wanted to play that way, he could have recruited the players to allow him to play that way. The players we had were Dyches players.

I doubt he could have with the budget available to him.

Interestingly, another Athletic article (today) with Pope featured has this quote

“I know what people say about my kicking,” Pope says, when asked whether he feels the portrayal is justified. “One of the things I hope to change here is that opinion of me. The tactics at Burnley were different. Kicking it long was what I was asked to do and more of what was expected. I’m looking forward to changing that view of me and being part of a team where more is expected of myself.”

Leisure - do you still think it was just the players?

martin_p wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:18 am

I think that’s a fair point, however he was in charge nine years and made no attempt to move away from the same system. Was it a case of ‘if it ain’t broke don’t fix it’, not having the necessary funds to make the change required or a manager who was most comfortable with the system he had. For the avoidance of doubt, absolutely love Dyche and his time at the club and he’ll always be a clarets legend in my eyes.

We played some terrific football in 2017/18 that saw us play a much more expansive game. That's what he wanted to continue doing, that's how he saw us evolving. It got us into Europe but then he had his hands tied behind his back in terms of squad building and I'm not sure what on earth he could have done then.

It's just not true that he made no attempt to move away from the same system at all.

According to some people we never played ‘Long ball’

RVclaret wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:24 am

Interestingly, another Athletic article (today) with Pope featured has this quote

“I know what people say about my kicking,” Pope says, when asked whether he feels the portrayal is justified. “One of the things I hope to change here is that opinion of me. The tactics at Burnley were different. Kicking it long was what I was asked to do and more of what was expected. I’m looking forward to changing that view of me and being part of a team where more is expected of myself.”

Leisure - do you still think it was just the players?

I didn't say it was the players not wanting play it from the back but that the players we had just weren't capable of doing that against the quality of teams in the PL.

ClaretTony wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:25 am

We played some terrific football in 2017/18 that saw us play a much more expansive game. That's what he wanted to continue doing, that's how he saw us evolving. It got us into Europe but then he had his hands tied behind his back in terms of squad building and I'm not sure what on earth he could have done then.

It's just not true that he made no attempt to move away from the same system at all.

Yes fair point. You do wonder how we would have progressed if Defour hadn’t been injured for most of his time at the club.

My few words on this….

Dyche was always true to his word about playing mixed, effective football.

The football we played during his first promotion season was sensational in large parts.

It was excellent during the championship winning season.

It was fabulous in the season we qualified for Europe.

THEN….tensions started to arise, funds and players weren’t found as readily (they rarely were) due to ongoing issues with the board, so Dyche did what he thought was best to keep the club up. That worked for two or three more seasons, but eventually you get found out.

martin_p wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:29 am

Yes fair point. You do wonder how we would have progressed if Defour hadn’t been injured for most of his time at the club.

Not just Defour - JBG was our player of the season that season, Brady was terrific on the left until the injury and despite some of the nonsense on here, Hendrick was a key player in front of Cork and Defour. Injuries and then a lack of investment killed it I'm afraid. Until Brady and Defour suffered their injuries, that was superb football to watch in so many games.

So how does Pope explain struggling with the ball at his feet when playing for England ? Southgate plays out from the back and despite Pope being arguably the best shot stopper of the England keepers Southgate will pick Pickford, Ramsdale and even other keepers ahead of Pope presumably because of his kicking ability that they must see in the training camps.

And I am not criticising Pope - I always said that despite his kicking accuracy at least he did not give goals away like Pickford and others who think they can play out from the back but cost their teams goals every season.

From what I saw of a few of those 20 yard passes from Muric last week if he does that on a regular basis then the better teams will capitalise on that and many Burnley fans will be wishing he could clear his lines like Pope did !!

Come on guys, even in 2017/18 the metrics show we were still a long ball side. Dyche’s time with us was characterised by huge success on the field and huge improvements off it, for which we should all be grateful, but let us not kid ourselves that Dyche would be playing out from the back under any circumstances.

At the end of the day, managers have their favoured style and they generally stick to it. I’m sure football will come back around to the idea of being long ball again, but for now it’s certainly moving away from it and I’ll be very interested to see who will give Dyche his next job.

jdrobbo wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:31 am

My few words on this….

Dyche was always true to his word about playing mixed, effective football.

The football we played during his first promotion season was sensational in large parts.

It was excellent during the championship winning season.

It was fabulous in the season we qualified for Europe.

THEN….tensions started to arise, funds and players weren’t found as readily (they rarely were) due to ongoing issues with the board, so Dyche did what he thought was best to keep the club up. That worked for two or three more seasons, but eventually you get found out if you’re not funded.

The football during the Championship winning season was efficient & effective, nowhere near as pleasing on the eye as the first promotion season.

Can argue about lack of funding, which is quite true, but how many technically gifted players would have actually wanted to join us? I know we are down a level now but the technically gifted Benson just joined and made a comment that he watched us at Hudd and loved how we played, he wanted to be a part of it. We know that Ryan Christie rejected us for Bournemouth last summer for example. How many others were there like that?

Then what about the games at the likes of Brentford and Norwich last season when he reverted to Westwood's constant long swoops that inevitably came to nothing. Leaving our best passing midfielder on the bench for most of the season? Never trying our most technical player (McNeil) in the 10?

ClaretTony wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:25 am

We played some terrific football in 2017/18 that saw us play a much more expansive game. That's what he wanted to continue doing, that's how he saw us evolving. It got us into Europe but then he had his hands tied behind his back in terms of squad building and I'm not sure what on earth he could have done then.

It's just not true that he made no attempt to move away from the same system at all.

And on our 1st promotion season. Dyche was starved of funds, he bought players with the money available to him. If your spending £10m on a player in the prem, your not going to get a technically gifted player at the required level. If he tried to play more open football we would have been hammered. His job was to keep us in the prem, I believe he did that better than anybody else could have done. If he was financially supported, it would have been more entertaining as well

RVclaret wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:36 am

The football during the Championship winning season was efficient & effective, nowhere near as pleasing on the eye as the first promotion season.

Can argue about lack of funding, which is quite true, but how many technically gifted players would have actually wanted to join us? I know we are down a level now but the technically gifted Benson just joined and made a comment that he watched us at Hudd and loved how we played, he wanted to be a part of it. We know that Ryan Christie rejected us for Bournemouth last summer for example. How many others were there like that?

Then what about the games at the likes of Brentford and Norwich last season when he reverted to Westwood's constant long swoops that inevitably came to nothing. Leaving our best passing midfielder on the bench for most of the season? Never trying our most technical player (McNeil) in the 10?

Can’t disagree


Ps I’d be amazed if we don’t see Sam Allardyce again

RVclaret wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:36 am

The football during the Championship winning season was efficient & effective, nowhere near as pleasing on the eye as the first promotion season.

Can argue about lack of funding, which is quite true, but how many technically gifted players would have actually wanted to join us? I know we are down a level now but the technically gifted Benson just joined and made a comment that he watched us at Hudd and loved how we played, he wanted to be a part of it. We know that Ryan Christie rejected us for Bournemouth last summer for example. How many others were there like that?

Then what about the games at the likes of Brentford and Norwich last season when he reverted to Westwood's constant long swoops that inevitably came to nothing. Leaving our best passing midfielder on the bench for most of the season? Never trying our most technical player (McNeil) in the 10?

Question to Benson: Did you enjoy how we played at Huddersfield?
Did you actually expect him to say no?

But let's not let that get in the way of more negativity towards the best manager we've had in generations.

No. Football is rock, paper, scissors.

Everyone wants to play pep ball at the moment, someone will come along and be successful with a different style and we will all change to that one.

Its interesting this because for example Lverpool mix their game and often play long balls out from the back, particularly to Salah. Dyche played to the strengths of the personnel available to him. Promoted teams to EPL trying to play 'football' usually get relegated immediately.

ClaretTony wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:39 am

Question to Benson: Did you enjoy how we played at Huddersfield?
Did you actually expect him to say no?

But let's not let that get in the way of more negativity towards the best manager we've had in generations.

Obviously never going to say no but I found it interesting how he labelled himself technical and then expanded on his answer to the question you mentioned but saying he could see himself fitting it with that.

And it’s not negativity, the discussion is on long ball football which the Athletic has suggested (using data) we and Dyche played for the past 6 seasons. Posters have suggested we wouldn’t have played it if Dyche had more money, I’m not convinced by that.

Last season two very technical players joined in Cornet and Weghorst, yet the same long ball style persisted. It was only under Jackson we started to change that a bit (the stats showed it).

I'll give you that Dyche didn't know what to do with Cornet. Clearly not a player he would have signed. As for Weghorst, at least Jackson got it right with him, he left him out.

Will the long ball game come back in though when heading the ball is eradicated from the game?

Grandpa Claret wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:50 am

Will the long ball game come back in though when heading the ball is eradicated from the game?

I think so.
Liverpool play a lot of long passes, but few are to players' heads.

gandhisflipflop wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:18 am

If Dyche wanted to play that way, he could have recruited the players to allow him to play that way. The players we had were Dyches players.

Defour anyone?

Oh...

You'll always find there will be teams without the big money that realise that if they take on the big money teams at their own game, they will fail. If you have less money than the rest, there is no point chasing the same players and trying to play the same way, because you will lose. Instead you can get the players the big money teams don't want, and play a different way.

I'm sure the same question was asked after Graham Taylor's Watford were relegated, or Harry Bassett's Wimbledon.

I think football has evolved and fans are less tolerant of long ball.I went to a League 2 game and one of the teams tried to play some football. It was very different from what I remember in Division 4. As far Dyche I think he’d develop more as a manager if he took a job abroad before managing in the UK again.

There's always a place in sport for tactics and approaches that yield results above the norm.

As Grandpa Claret says, the real longball of English football is dead simply because kids aren't brought up heading the ball anymore.
Even Dyche's side didn't head the ball that often. Wood only competed for a header if he could score from it.

The long ball over the top, for quick people to chase will stay in the game, but only as a surprise tactic. Otherwise teams just back off like Burnley did.

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 05, 2022 10:06 am

Defour anyone?

Oh...

How did that transfer come about? Wasn’t it a poster on here recommending him to the club?

An interesting debate.

I have the answer, though, it is very simple; NO!

There is a place for every brand of football. I am still slightly concerned how we will deal with "long ball" teams when we have a 1st team which appears to be very short. I still think we are vulnerable at set pieces and not particularly dangerous when attacking at set pieces. I want to be proved wrong but it is a nagging doubt.

Football is glorified chess. Many strategies for many situations.

gandhisflipflop wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:13 am

How did that transfer come about? Wasn’t it a poster on here recommending him to the club?

Doesn't matter, no one forced the club/Dyche to sign him

Defour was also of the opinion that he couldn't play his better football with a winger like Boyd I've read, hence why Boyd was sold and we signed JBG.

Either way, Dyche was able to evolve the football at the club as he wanted to do, but that's going against a narrative some are spouting.

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:25 am

Doesn't matter, no one forced the club/Dyche to sign him

Defour was also of the opinion that he couldn't play his better football with a winger like Boyd I've read, hence why Boyd was sold and we signed JBG.

Either way, Dyche was able to evolve the football at the club as he wanted to do, but that's going against a narrative some are spouting.

Dyche got us playing some great football at times not knocking that, I do tend to agree with RV claret though above that I’m not convinced that the style would have shifted that much had Dyche had stayed.

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:25 am

Doesn't matter, no one forced the club/Dyche to sign him

Defour was also of the opinion that he couldn't play his better football with a winger like Boyd I've read, hence why Boyd was sold and we signed JBG.

Either way, Dyche was able to evolve the football at the club as he wanted to do, but that's going against a narrative some are spouting.

Not sure where you've read that, but it's highly likely to be nonsense, not least because JBG was bought before Defour arrived at the club.

martin_p wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:18 am

I think that’s a fair point, however he was in charge nine years and made no attempt to move away from the same system. Was it a case of ‘if it ain’t broke don’t fix it’, not having the necessary funds to make the change required or a manager who was most comfortable with the system he had. For the avoidance of doubt, absolutely love Dyche and his time at the club and he’ll always be a clarets legend in my eyes.

We played some great football the season we finished 7th.
The football at Chelsea first game, 27 passes at Everton. If we could have kept Defour fit who knows where it would have led.
We also played some terrific football in the Championship, the demolition of Forrest the standout.

The fact is SD worked with what he had, and we never had the money to buy a fit Defour.
The money we had went on seasoned reliables, rather than gamble on young prospects, and that in the end was what caught up with us.

It's history, and SD will rightly retain his legend status. As for long balls, every team, including City and Liverpool play long balls, only they are called passes when they do them, the teams that attempt to play the top teams at their own game, more often than not get relegated. So I doubt anyone will copy Burnley, but the long ball will never die.

it's a very poor article - must be a slow news day

As much as tactics I think the way refereeing has gone has had a big effect on whether a team can succeed with a direct approach. As we canter along towards becoming a non contact sport the chances of a less skillful side ruffling a few feathers and succeeding are diminishing. The fact that we managed it for so long was testament to the discipline of Dyche and the team. Just on the right side of the line. But as that line shifts that becomes harder to achieve.

Just think of Barnes. At times he tried to get physical to have an impact but gave away so many free kicks it became counter productive.

ksrclaret wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:33 am

Come on guys, even in 2017/18 the metrics show we were still a long ball side.

Are there any relevant stats that show the difference or otherwise between the first half of 2017-18 and any other season?

ClaretTony wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:25 am

We played some terrific football in 2017/18 that saw us play a much more expansive game. That's what he wanted to continue doing, that's how he saw us evolving. It got us into Europe but then he had his hands tied behind his back in terms of squad building and I'm not sure what on earth he could have done then.

It's just not true that he made no attempt to move away from the same system at all.

This should be a stickie at the top of the board I think. It's painful to read criticism of Dyche which lacks all context. How on earth could anyone think we were going to be able to out-football teams in the PL with the level of resource made available from 2018 onwards ??

Alas we will never know but I am far from convinced that if Dyche was still in charge now we’d be seeing a complete squad overhaul and a change in style for this coming season.

I think he’d had retained more of the old heads, we’d be picking up more horses for courses and we’d be setting up in the usual pragmatic manner.

That may ultimately have proven more successful than what VK will serve up but to suggest that Dyche only played the way he did as it was his only option is a very weak argument for me.

He had choices and he made the ones he did. It wasn’t pretty but it worked for a good portion of his reign, however it was bloody awful at the end.

Is the cost of football now playing a part as to why long ball football is on its way out? Fans are now spending an awful lot of money to watch their teams in the PL and some entertainment is required?

Probably not.

Although it didn't help Im not sure that playing it long under Dyche was really what made the football hard work to watch at times. Lots of teams play long direct football and it can be great to watch.

Dyche however was very risk adverse to getting players ahead of the ball and for people jumping and making risky attempts to win back the ball if it would put us at risk on the counter attack.

Under Dyche we would normally look to get the ball in the final third either by hitting it long into players like Wood and Barnes whereby even if we didn't get full control of the ball we could win throw-ins and free kicks which allowed us to get men forward in a more controlled manner.

Likewise when we lost the ball the plan was for everyone to retreat back in to position as fast as possible and then look to block and frustrate the opposition rather than actually try and win the ball back. I think this is why we had a lot more success against a team like Liverpool who were brilliant breaking fast compared to a team like Man City who were probably the only team who had the ability and movement to consistently play through us when we had everyone back in their defensive shape

The outlier to this was the first promotion season where we were very aggressive in pressing and trying to win the ball back high up the pitch and its no surprise that people regard this as the most exciting team to watch under Dyche (along with the first half of the 7th season where we at our asolute peak)

For me it was the reluctance to break fast and throw men forward or be aggressive in the way we tried to win the ball back which made some of the football awful to watch however there is no way I think we could have stayed in the division without the cautious approach Dyche took as plenty of teams would have destroyed in an open end to end game

Leisure wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:14 am

I can assure you that Dyche would have loved for Burnley to play out from the back but we just didn't have the players to risk playing that way. If he was managing Man City, Liverpool etc then his team would be playing it from the back.

I agree. We played some really good stuff in the Championship and also when we had Defour and made Europe.

Had Mr D been given the millions available at other clubs, the mix would have had more flair and a different style.