Absolutely not a negative post this one. I’m really happy with how we’re playing and think we were just unlucky some of our efforts didn’t creep in last night, but would genuinely love to know VK’s thoughts on:

1. Is it a tactic to pass the ball the ball so slowly?

We seem to take so many touches and pass three times to hit a man when once would do. Is that what he’s looking for to encourage a press and draw a team out of shape, or are we just not executing what he’s looking for well enough?

2. Similarly, why do we keep playing it to our wide players feet (often behind them)?

I lost count of how many times we played it behind Benson last night. I can understand one misplaced pass but why would we do it so consistently? Maatsen came on and immediately started playing the ball through the lines in to space and we nearly score twice.

NewClaret wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 14, 2022 8:49 am

Absolutely not a negative post this one. I’m really happy with how we’re playing and think we were just unlucky some of our efforts didn’t creep in last night, but would genuinely love to know VK’s thoughts on:

1. Is it a tactic to pass the ball the ball so slowly?

We seem to take so many touches and pass three times to hit a man when once would do. Is that what he’s looking for to encourage a press and draw a team out of shape, or are we just not executing what he’s looking for well enough?

2. Similarly, why do we keep playing it to our wide players feet (often behind them)?

I lost count of how many times we played it behind Benson last night. I can understand one misplaced pass but why would we do it so consistently? Maatsen came on and immediately started playing the ball through the lines in to space and we nearly score twice.

1. You are right in that sometimes there needs to be more zip to the passing and mix up the distances. Also Cork and Cullen are great recyclers of the ball but neither really possess a long distance switch of play. However it’s also worth pointing out we scored from a 24 pass move against Millwall where we eventually opened the space for a more penetrative pass - that move, if you watch it again, also was quite ‘slow’ in parts.

2. Agree albeit difficult to play it in space behind when the opposition don’t give you any. PNE played as deep last night, second half particularly, than I’ve maybe ever seen against us. Though Maatsen / Zaroury did change it a bit, but even then, that space was actually created by some slower passing down the right! Add to this we are missing a 10 who can receive the ball on the half turn and quickly spot the forward pass (Twine?). To add to the above, it’s also about the team gelling more and understanding each other’s movement, which will hopefully come with time.

The problem is we are trying to play a bit like Man City but without the players of the quality of Kevin De Bruyne or David Silver.

You just know that playing against the tightest of defences these players can thread a ball with pin point accuracy whereas we can't. It's a bit of an issue.

Spijed wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 14, 2022 9:04 am

The problem is we are trying to play a bit like Man City but without the players of the quality of Kevin De Bruyne or David Silver.

You just know that playing against the tightest of defences these players can thread a ball with pin point accuracy whereas we can't. It's a bit of an issue.

Spot on

Correct ^^^
We’re trying to play £60m player football with £3m players

Spijed wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 14, 2022 9:04 am

The problem is we are trying to play a bit like Man City but without the players of the quality of Kevin De Bruyne or David Silver.

You just know that playing against the tightest of defences these players can thread a ball with pin point accuracy whereas we can't. It's a bit of an issue.

Yeah, I agree, you can sometimes see the pass is on and Jay will make the run but there's a reluctance to play it probably due to the fact it needs to be perfect like your elite players are capable of

Spijed wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 14, 2022 9:04 am

The problem is we are trying to play a bit like Man City but without the players of the quality of Kevin De Bruyne or David Silver.

You just know that playing against the tightest of defences these players can thread a ball with pin point accuracy whereas we can't. It's a bit of an issue.

Even City struggle at times to break down well organised, defensive teams. Did you watch their CL game against Athletico Madrid at the Etihad last season? Athletico played like PNE did last night and City eventually got a goal, but it was only 1-0 and they weren’t able to create much. City had 72% possession (same as us last night), 15 shots but just 2 on target. I also watched them against Wolves at home last season who were the same, they got a very lucky penalty in the last 5 minutes.

AlargeClaret wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 14, 2022 9:15 am

Correct ^^^
We’re trying to play £60m player football with £3m players

In fairness though, against £0 players, so it is all relative.

Spijed wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 14, 2022 9:04 am

The problem is we are trying to play a bit like Man City but without the players of the quality of Kevin De Bruyne or David Silver.

You just know that playing against the tightest of defences these players can thread a ball with pin point accuracy whereas we can't. It's a bit of an issue.

Long John?

When it works it’s great. When it doesn’t, it’s like watching paint dry!

Can we have a shoot on sight policy when in the penalty area ?
Can we ban sideways passing when a forward through ball is on?

NewClaret wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 14, 2022 9:27 am

In fairness though, against £0 players, so it is all relative.

Haha good point ! Though what looked a very very average Preston defended with ease . It’s the Championship though so we have to roll with it .

Man City have world class players we have younger players
on loan learning the game at a more physical level
Preston put in 17 fouls to our 6 something we have to get used to some tackles poor to say the least .

Burnley1989 wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 14, 2022 9:17 am

Yeah, I agree, you can sometimes see the pass is on and Jay will make the run but there's a reluctance to play it probably due to the fact it needs to be perfect like your elite players are capable of

I think some of the reluctance is because we know if we try the killer pass and it fails there's a chance we could concede on the break because we're so weak at the back, there playing with a bit of fear now because we play so open

My question would be, “Why don’t you get Benson to train to cross with his right peg?”
He loves to go down the outside but turns back onto his left virtually every time before crossing. The right foot centre would be going away from the keeper whereas the left foot is drifting in to him.
The point above re:City.
De Bruyne and Silva have that god given ability to beat a man and run putting the defence on the back foot. Sadly that type of player is way out of our price range.

RVclaret wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 14, 2022 8:56 am

1. You are right in that sometimes there needs to be more zip to the passing and mix up the distances. Also Cork and Cullen are great recyclers of the ball but neither really possess a long distance switch of play. However it’s also worth pointing out we scored from a 24 pass move against Millwall where we eventually opened the space for a more penetrative pass - that move, if you watch it again, also was quite ‘slow’ in parts.

2. Agree albeit difficult to play it in space behind when the opposition don’t give you any. PNE played as deep last night, second half particularly, than I’ve maybe ever seen against us. Though Maatsen / Zaroury did change it a bit, but even then, that space was actually created by some slower passing down the right! Add to this we are missing a 10 who can receive the ball on the half turn and quickly spot the forward pass (Twine?). To add to the above, it’s also about the team gelling more and understanding each other’s movement, which will hopefully come with time.

1. Fair point, it was. I think the admin had to speed up the video in parts to avoid people falling asleep It’s a genuine question though, whether it’s a tactic to draw a press, get them out of shape? There was a point in 2nd half where Roberts had passes on but stood on the ball waiting! Like you say, I’d like it crisper, one touch, more progressive - particularly on turnover.

2. I think I’d have more confidence if I’d seen more movement! We do look very static at times, and Jay drops off so little outlet. Would love to see Cork/Cullen running through a bit to mix it up (THB nearly did this!!). Particularly when Brownhill has effectively moved to our most advanced position so there is no 10. Take your point about Twiney but thought Brownhill should be playing that role - he didn’t last night.

Again, this isn’t a moan but last night VK said they put an extra man in midfield and “it took us 30 minutes to work it out”. I didn’t think that reflected particularly well. Imo we needed to combat that somehow and quickly. I thought we were too late doing it. I’d have sacrificed one of Cullen/Cork, played one deep midfielder & brought Zaroury in a 10 role while we still had Tella. Also Jay was blowing & I would’ve given Halil 15 minutes.

Will add: in one of the last two chances Zaroury created last night, he was in acres of space and we played it infield. I was about to moan and somehow they worked it to him in a massively better position. It was a great move. Looked a training ground drill. My point being I’m just not sure I understand these patterns of play we’re trying to create or why!

As very often said " we're Burnley, not Barcelona".

Spijed wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 14, 2022 9:04 am

The problem is we are trying to play a bit like Man City but without the players of the quality of Kevin De Bruyne or David Silver.

You just know that playing against the tightest of defences these players can thread a ball with pin point accuracy whereas we can't. It's a bit of an issue.

Agreed. A number 10 who can operate in tight spaces is needed for this system imo.

NewClaret wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 14, 2022 11:40 am

Will add: in one of the last two chances Zaroury created last night, he was in acres of space and we played it infield. I was about to moan and somehow they worked it to him in a massively better position. It was a great move. Looked a training ground drill. My point being I’m just not sure I understand these patterns of play we’re trying to create or why!

Agree with all your previous post btw. Though I add that I felt Maatsen should have been introduced earlier to give the ‘outside’ option.

In terms of the build up play / patterns of play, it’s designed to get in one on one situations, give the winger some room on his marker to have a run at or have the overlap available. If you rewatch the first goal v Millwall you will see this exact pattern occurs on the right to allow Benson the room to manoeuvre the ball into a clear crossing opportunity.

RVclaret wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 14, 2022 11:49 am

Agree with all your previous post btw. Though I add that I felt Maatsen should have been introduced earlier to give the ‘outside’ option.

In terms of the build up play / patterns of play, it’s designed to get in one on one situations, give the winger some room on his marker to have a run at or have the overlap available. If you rewatch the first goal v Millwall you will see this exact pattern occurs on the right to allow Benson the room to manoeuvre the ball into a clear crossing opportunity.

I’ll have a watch again RV.

This isn’t an over reaction to last night, but having watched us for nearly a quarter of a season, I current thinking is that we will miss out on promotion. Maybe a playoff spot at best. With the potential caveat that I think we have the strongest squad and so we’ll need to see if other chasing teams fare better/worse as injuries take their toll - and that I could still see us being active in Jan and that may change things.

I’m in a strange position where I’m really enjoying the football, honestly could see us going unbeaten for the remainder, but don’t think we’ll win anywhere near enough to be a contender. Not without playing with much more urgency and having a plan b - which I’m just not sensing “will come”, although obviously hope to be proven wrong.

NewClaret wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 14, 2022 1:16 pm

I’ll have a watch again RV.

This isn’t an over reaction to last night, but having watched us for nearly a quarter of a season, I current thinking is that we will miss out on promotion. Maybe a playoff spot at best. With the potential caveat that I think we have the strongest squad and so we’ll need to see if other chasing teams fare better/worse as injuries take their toll - and that I could still see us being active in Jan and that may change things.

I’m in a strange position where I’m really enjoying the football, honestly could see us going unbeaten for the remainder, but don’t think we’ll win anywhere near enough to be a contender. Not without playing with much more urgency and having a plan b - which I’m just not sensing “will come”, although obviously hope to be proven wrong.

Not sure on us having the strongest squad, it certainly seems top 2/3 worthy though. It's been an interesting start. 1 defeat in 9, 1 clean sheet in 9, 2nd top scorers in the league, 3 wins in 9. - a real mixed bag of stats. I think I would have taken all of that if someone had offered it to me before we kicked a ball. Also think, on performances, we could be another 2 points better off at least (which would put us in the top 2 right now!). With 16 new players, new play style etc etc, I'm cautiously optimistic and I'm completely intrigued to see 'what's next'. I do feel we will be much better post World Cup (more gelling time etc) so I'm hoping we can be still within striking distance of the auto places by then (no more than 6-7 points away). Looking at the fixtures, October, on paper, provides a real chance to get a good run together. I still stand by my view that, once fit and firing, we will have one of the best attacking talents in the league in Twine and he will make a big difference to some of our games.

RVclaret wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 14, 2022 1:29 pm

Not sure on us having the strongest squad, it certainly seems top 2/3 worthy though. It's been an interesting start. 1 defeat in 9, 1 clean sheet in 9, 2nd top scorers in the league, 3 wins in 9. - a real mixed bag of stats. I think I would have taken all of that if someone had offered it to me before we kicked a ball. Also think, on performances, we could be another 2 points better off at least (which would put us in the top 2 right now!). With 16 new players, new play style etc etc, I'm cautiously optimistic and I'm completely intrigued to see 'what's next'. I do feel we will be much better post World Cup (more gelling time etc) so I'm hoping we can be still within striking distance of the auto places by then (no more than 6-7 points away). Looking at the fixtures, October, on paper, provides a real chance to get a good run together. I still stand by my view that, once fit and firing, we will have one of the best attacking talents in the league in Twine and he will make a big difference to some of our games.

Who do you think is stronger squad-wise? I’m not so clued up on Champ teams, so can’t say. But from what I’ve seen of us and others so far, I would not swap squads with any other team. Although when I think of it, that’s mainly due to attacking talent but I am also saying I can’t see us scoring enough, which is an obvious contradiction.

A run might change my perspective. But the main thing would be more urgency in our play. I sense we always feel ‘it will come’ but often doesn’t, so I’d like to see quicker passing, mixing the distances as you say, and overall more risk taking - midfielders/CH’a making the occasional run, balls to space, sacrificing the midfield two for one, etc, etc. And a bit of a “plan b” for the last 5. I’m not a fan of Muric rolling it out from the back with 30 secs to play…

NewClaret wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 14, 2022 2:10 pm

Who do you think is stronger squad-wise? I’m not so clued up on Champ teams, so can’t say. But from what I’ve seen of us and others so far, I would not swap squads with any other team. Although when I think of it, that’s mainly due to attacking talent but I am also saying I can’t see us scoring enough, which is an obvious contradiction.

A run might change my perspective. But the main thing would be more urgency in our play. I sense we always feel ‘it will come’ but often doesn’t, so I’d like to see quicker passing, mixing the distances as you say, and overall more risk taking - midfielders/CH’a making the occasional run, balls to space, sacrificing the midfield two for one, etc, etc. And a bit of a “plan b” for the last 5. I’m not a fan of Muric rolling it out from the back with 30 secs to play…

Sheffield United and Norwich have very strong squads for this league. I think if we finish above either one of those two then we will be promoted. Ours is strong (deep) and very talented but also a touch inexperienced due to age / not playing in the league before. Think the goals will come for us, got to trust Kompany and go off the success he had at Anderlecht (they are currently 10th and their fans are hating their new style of play btw).

Tricky Trevor wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 14, 2022 10:00 am

My question would be, “Why don’t you get Benson to train to cross with his right peg?”
He loves to go down the outside but turns back onto his left virtually every time before crossing. The right foot centre would be going away from the keeper whereas the left foot is drifting in to him.
The point above re:City.
De Bruyne and Silva have that god given ability to beat a man and run putting the defence on the back foot. Sadly that type of player is way out of our price range.

I think he should practice with his left first.

Spijed wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 14, 2022 9:04 am

The problem is we are trying to play a bit like Man City but without the players of the quality of Kevin De Bruyne or David Silver.

You just know that playing against the tightest of defences these players can thread a ball with pin point accuracy whereas we can't. It's a bit of an issue.

you saw the difference we had on the left when the two subs came on and played at a much higher tempo, PNE couldn't live with us. It'll come

Part of the problem is not knowing our best 11, Brownhill isn't a 10, our most creative player in Maatsen is on the bench, Vitinho isn't a right winger. Rodriguez isn't a natural goalscorer (if he was he'd have scored last night).

Champagne football on a beer budget

KRBFC wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 14, 2022 2:28 pm

Part of the problem is not knowing our best 11, Brownhill isn't a 10, our most creative player in Maatsen is on the bench, Vitinho isn't a right winger. Rodriguez isn't a natural goalscorer (if he was he'd have scored last night).

We all love Vitinho but he's been played all over the pitch nearly, one min he's a RB, then out to LB, then further forward, at the moment I don't think thats a good thing and goes to prove we don't know our best starting XI

I think we all need to remember that VK and his coaching team are learning too.