Everyone's moaning about our defence , but we've only conceded 12 in 12 games and 3 of those were in one match . Our problem is not creating and scoring more at the other end . We have plenty of the ball without actually hurting teams .

Too slow getting it out to our pacy wide men
Why only 1 sub used ?

expoultryboy wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 05, 2022 9:57 pm

Everyone's moaning about our defence , but we've only conceded 12 in 12 games and 3 of those were in one match . Our problem is not creating and scoring more at the other end . We have plenty of the ball without actually hurting teams .

Agreed but notwithstanding that we should still know how to set-out a plan to defend a lead for the closing minutes of a game.

For the volume of possession we have, we don't work the defence enough. We pass it around safely and in front of the opposition. We settle for a safe, slow tempo and don't have the urgency to create.

We're also poor defensively considering we only have to actually defend for 20% of a game. That needs sorting, starting with the personnel.

So, issues at both ends of the pitch. Anyone sensible can see that.

If you look at our attacks...
Rodriguez isn't getting in the box enough.
Tella isn't a left winger, I'm not sure why he is spending so much (ineffective) time out there.
It's clearly part of a game plan but that plan isn't creating enough clear cut opportunities at present

If you have the ball that much you have to be creating and scoring far more than we do.

Woodleyclaret wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 05, 2022 9:58 pm

Too slow getting it out to our pacy wide men
Why only 1 sub used ?

VK can't win can he makes changes in the Cardiff game and folk complain, doesn't make changes tonight and still folk complain.

We don't penetrate enough and we haven't got any proper defenders, it's frustrating and quite frankly I'm finding it all a bit boring now.
All that possession but it's the same old backwards safe passes.
Cullen for me needs dropping

Bordeauxclaret wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 05, 2022 10:11 pm

If you have the ball that much you have to be creating and scoring far more than we do.

Agreed especially when you wouldn't back us to keep a clean sheet.

tiger76 wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 05, 2022 10:13 pm

VK can't win

Correct

Should’ve bought a striker IMO

bumba wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 05, 2022 10:13 pm

We don't penetrate enough and we haven't got any proper defenders, it's frustrating and quite frankly I'm finding it all a bit boring now.
All that possession but it's the same old backwards safe passes.
Cullen for me needs dropping

I can't see any reason to drop Cullen.
He and Cork were excellent. Cullen hardly lost a ball all night and was constantly available.
If we are looking for a problem to solve it is that we rarely put the oppositions' CBs under any pressure.

I said on here many times before the season started that we needed two Championship quality strikers, we didn’t sign any and it is showing. We have a lot of very similar forward players, tricky, lightweight but no power. On the defence, I have also said on here many times, we need to play Beyer at centre back with Charlie in his best position at left back. Vitinho and Maatsen will never be left backs whilst they have holes in their arrises.

boatshed bill wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 05, 2022 10:17 pm

I can't see any reason to drop Cullen.
He and Cork were excellent. Cullen hardly lost a ball all night and was constantly available.
If we are looking for a problem to solve it is that we rarely put the oppositions' CBs under any pressure.

I'd rather he lost the ball 2/3 times because he'd attempted to pass a ball forward, we won't win football matches passing the ball backwards. Several times he has the chance to play someone in and turns back and goes safe.
We need some penetration not this tippy tappy boring stuff that's so predictable and easy to play against

bumba wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 05, 2022 10:24 pm

I'd rather he lost the ball 2/3 times because he'd attempted to pass a ball forward, we won't win football matches passing the ball backwards. Several times he has the chance to play someone in and turns back and goes safe.
We need some penetration not this tippy tappy boring stuff that's so predictable and easy to play against

Actually I get that.
I do think his main roll is to receive the out-ball, something he does really well
his 2nd job appears to be filling inon the left when Maatsen/Vitinho attack from left back...something else he does well.

We do our best work out wide, we need the pace and penetration down the centre.

Rodriguez isolated, never enough men in the box to cross it to. Brownhill isn't a number 10, he's a central midfielder, he's not KDB, not even the same kind of player. Brownhill doesn't really possess any of the typical number 10 qualities. He's out of position. Spends far too much time out on the right wing too playing triangles with Roberts and Benson when he should be in the box for a cross. It's our biggest issue atm.

KRBFC wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 05, 2022 10:37 pm

Rodriguez isolated, never enough men in the box to cross it to. Brownhill isn't a number 10, he's a central midfielder, he's not KDB, not even the same kind of player. Brownhill doesn't really possess any of the typical number 10 qualities. He's out of position. Spends far too much time out on the right wing too playing triangles with Roberts and Benson when he should be in the box for a cross. It's our biggest issue atm.

M.O.M tonight, though i'm really not sure how.

If you think of a number 10, you think the ability to pass through the eye of a needle, split a defence with 1 cute pass. The dribbling ability to go past a defender then pass through. Most importantly in that role is the ability to find space on the pitch, good number 10's are ALWAYS somehow in space, it's not a coincidence. I don't think it's something you can teach either

We don't have that pace, drive and ability to beat a man through the middle of the pitch. Just ends up being slowly passed around before hoping a wide player can produce something. You can see why O'Hare was wanted. We dont have that cuteness in the middle of the pitch either, think an Aldi version of David Silva, Ozil. Someone to make something happen centrally from that 10 spot

KRBFC wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 05, 2022 10:44 pm

We don't have that pace, drive and ability to beat a man through the middle of the pitch. Just ends up being slowly passed around before hoping a wide player can produce something. You can see why O'Hare was wanted. We dont have that cuteness in the middle of the pitch either, think an Aldi version of David Silva, Ozil. Someone to make something happen centrally from that 10 spot

Couldn’t agree more, we don’t have any guile in the middle of the pitch

As well as Cork has done, I think Cullen is too important to the system, so I'd drop Cork and play Brownhill deeper, use Brownhill's best attributes like his work rate, up and down legs.

I'd have gone 442 for the final 20 minutes tonight- Tella or Zaroury playing off Jay, allow Jay to drop in as the 10 to link the game, and dropped Brownhill back into midfield with Cork or Cullen. You could have made an argument for it actually at half time.

First half, very much like at Preston, the Vitinho/Tella/Cullen axis down the left inevitably looked inside too much and we became too narrow. I'm struggling to understand why we don't ever swap the wingers over and let them have a crack on the opposite side (I say that as a general fab of inverted wingers - but where the full back offers the real width).

Newcastleclaret93 wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 05, 2022 10:45 pm

Couldn’t agree more, we don’t have any guile in the middle of the pitch

We have 2 David Jones' in the middle with Dean Marney advanced behind a striker.

KRBFC wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 05, 2022 10:48 pm

We have 2 David Jones' in the middle with Dean Marney advanced behind a striker.

Yep pretty accurate.

bumba wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 05, 2022 10:13 pm

We don't penetrate enough and we haven't got any proper defenders, it's frustrating and quite frankly I'm finding it all a bit boring now.
All that possession but it's the same old backwards safe passes.
Cullen for me needs dropping

Feel exactly the same. Have to be honest, after Saturday I’ve had zero enthusiasm for this match all day. I’m going Coventry at the weekend and likewise can’t get excited about it.

Passing the ball backwards is as anti-football as hoofing it in my opinion. VK says he wants us to be entertained but we’re creating very few goal scoring opportunities and I’m
struggling to find it entertaining.

It's about 40 years since i played a decent game of football, but prior to that:
every manager I've known at any level gets the CF to "work" the CBs. We don't.

It’s been our problem for seasons, creativity in midfield is none existent.

bumba wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 05, 2022 10:24 pm

I'd rather he lost the ball 2/3 times because he'd attempted to pass a ball forward, we won't win football matches passing the ball backwards. Several times he has the chance to play someone in and turns back and goes safe.
We need some penetration not this tippy tappy boring stuff that's so predictable and easy to play against

Roberts must have overlapped Benson 10 times in the first half only for Benson to cut back inside and play the safe pass. We definitely need to take a few more risks in the final 3rd.

Bordeauxclaret wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 05, 2022 10:11 pm

If you have the ball that much you have to be creating and scoring far more than we do.

Particularly when you factor in the number of attacking players we have (granted they aren't all fit at present).

I agree with those who say Cork and Cullen are too similar. Dropping Brownhill back there or giving Bastien a go would offer us more drive, it's painful to watch at times.
Tella really needs to get closer to Jay as well, they were nowhere near each other tonight which resulted in Jay dropping deeper and deeper.

We don’t need to be playing three central midfielders against teams like Stoke. Like watching a training ground routine tonight everything safety first apart from the few minutes which led to the goal.

KRBFC wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 05, 2022 10:42 pm

If you think of a number 10, you think the ability to pass through the eye of a needle, split a defence with 1 cute pass. The dribbling ability to go past a defender then pass through. Most importantly in that role is the ability to find space on the pitch, good number 10's are ALWAYS somehow in space, it's not a coincidence. I don't think it's something you can teach either

I actually don’t know what system we play. Some times we have a line of four (Brownhill pushed up) against the back line. Others there’s nobody in a forward position at all and Jay is playing in midfield. I just can’t work it out. But I do know it’s not working.

I think playing two deep lying CM’s against teams that sit back doesn’t feel a great decision, but equally think Cork & Cullen are consistently our best players. Hard to drop.

jrgbfc wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 05, 2022 10:53 pm

I agree with those who say Cork and Cullen are too similar. Dropping Brownhill back there or giving Bastien a go would offer us more drive, it's painful to watch at times.
Tella really needs to get closer to Jay as well, they were nowhere near each other tonight which resulted in Jay dropping deeper and deeper.

Totally agree about Tella/Jay.
but if Brownhill isn't working why drop either Cullen or Cork?

Steve-Harpers-perm wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 05, 2022 10:54 pm

We don’t need to be playing three central midfielders against teams like Stoke. Like watching a training ground routine tonight everything safety first apart from the few minutes which led to the goal.

There was one point in the first where a bad tackle went in, crowd got riled, we upped the tempo and created something. Shows it can be done but we’re ordinarily just building up at snails pace

Hopefully when fit , Twine will be our much needed No10

NewClaret wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 05, 2022 10:50 pm

Feel exactly the same. Have to be honest, after Saturday I’ve had zero enthusiasm for this match all day. I’m going Coventry at the weekend and likewise can’t get excited about it.

Passing the ball backwards is as anti-football as hoofing it in my opinion. VK says he wants us to be entertained but we’re creating very few goal scoring opportunities and I’m
struggling to find it entertaining.

Do summat else instead then, you miserable sod.

boatshed bill wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 05, 2022 10:56 pm

Totally agree about Tella/Jay.
but if Brownhill isn't working why drop either Cullen or Cork?

I just feel they're a bit too similar. Both neat and tidy, safety first. I think Brownhill would be better playing a more box to box role as well. We don't need two holding midfielders in games like tonight.

expoultryboy wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 05, 2022 10:57 pm

Hopefully when fit , Twine will be our much needed No10

Twine gets better each passing week he doesn’t play!

NewClaret wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 05, 2022 10:50 pm

Feel exactly the same. Have to be honest, after Saturday I’ve had zero enthusiasm for this match all day. I’m going Coventry at the weekend and likewise can’t get excited about it.

Passing the ball backwards is as anti-football as hoofing it in my opinion. VK says he wants us to be entertained but we’re creating very few goal scoring opportunities and I’m
struggling to find it entertaining.

Bloody hell. RV and KSR will be along soon to give you a right telling off.

I got rinsed for saying the exact same thing earlier. This in my opinion is the worst type of football to watch. It sucks the enjoyment out of the game.

NewClaret wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 05, 2022 10:55 pm

I actually don’t know what system we play. Some times we have a line of four (Brownhill pushed up) against the back line. Others there’s nobody in a forward position at all and Jay is playing in midfield. I just can’t work it out. But I do know it’s not working.

I think playing two deep lying CM’s against teams that sit back doesn’t feel a great decision, but equally think Cork & Cullen are consistently our best players. Hard to drop.

Cork Cullen
Benson Brownhill Tella
Jrod

the midfield 2 of Cork/Cullen are similar, lacks legs and energy. Brownhill doesn't beat a man, can't split a defence with a pass. He's just never a number 10, he's a very good Championship box to box midfielder though with legs and energy.

Play the ball in behind more and use the pace of Tella , and I think the time has come to drop one of the three central midfielders out to accommodate more creativity/craft. How Brownhill got MOTM tonight is beyond me . I think he neee to be dropped deeper alongside Cullen.

KRBFC wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 05, 2022 11:07 pm

Cork Cullen
Benson Brownhill Tella
Jrod

the midfield 2 of Cork/Cullen are similar, lacks legs and energy. Brownhill doesn't beat a man, can't split a defence with a pass. He's just never a number 10, he's a very good Championship box to box midfielder though with legs and energy.

Can’t agree with your comment that they lack legs and energy. I think they’re EVERYWHERE. And to be honest if I were a Stoke fan, I’d be purring at having one of them, not both.

The issue is Brownhill for me. As you say, doesn’t turn, not creative, not a 10. Not to say he deserves dropping either though.

When Twine is back I might play Brownhill in the Cullen/Cork role but ask him to be more box to box, with Twine as a 10. Would work better at home when teams will sit back.

Newcastleclaret93 wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 05, 2022 11:07 pm

Bloody hell. RV and KSR will be along soon to give you a right telling off.

I got rinsed for saying the exact same thing earlier. This in my opinion is the worst type of football to watch. It sucks the enjoyment out of the game.

I think worst type of football to watch is a tad excessive. I’d rather watch this than “low block, 25% possession, hit it long & try to nick something” Dycheball.

My issue is that it’s not great to be at 0-0 or even 1-0 up and play such laxidazical football without any real attempt to score. There was one point in the 2nd I thought Cork should’ve released it up the right quickly and he took too long. Drives me crazy. Crack on, score a couple and then I can watch you pass it around.

We have to find a way to turn the possession in to goals because at the moment we don’t look like scoring anywhere near enough.

NewClaret wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 05, 2022 11:42 pm

We have to find a way to turn the possession in to goals because at the moment we don’t look like scoring anywhere near enough.

Perfectly put.

It’s getting rather repetitive

For me -and I’ve been saying it for the past five-seven games or so, we need to be more pragmatic.

Swap Cullen for a striker(or play Tella dedicated striker and Zaroury on the left) with Brownhill dropping into midfield & Chaz to left back with Lowton coming back in at right back.

Lowts-THB-Beyer-Taylor
———Cork-Brownhill

All of a sudden we won’t look small in both boxes and have a bit more know now in now to see off games.

We take so many risks when we have the ball, at times Jack is in a midfield one, with Cullen at left back and Vitinho / Maatsen at left wing. That is no doubt intended to overload their defence but the trouble with it is that if we try a risky pass and lose the ball, they then have a chance to break in numbers with only Jack guarding the back four. So I don’t think we are too cautious.

We could be on 36 points, only West Brom have we deserved to lose, say a couple of draw was deserved too, so that would be 29 points and well clear at the top. What has cost us has been sloppy defending at vital times by young players, and sloppy tactics by a young manager at times. We’re also missing a few young forward players who are all injured. I don’t see a major problem.

We’ll iron it out with a bit of experience, I’m sure of it.

Brownhill is the issue, he plays in straight lines or the way he’s facing, that’s not what a number 10 needs to do.

Put a young Robbie Blake in that role end we are a completely different kettle of fish.

50% of our play is excellent, another 15% very good, and another 20% ok.
The other 15% is very poor. An awful lot of talent on the pitch, but not a lot of nous, and it's all over the pitch.

It's best to think of in terms of tennis. Anyone can lose a set to a well played winner, but when you're losing sets to unforced errors it's not good enough. We keep throwing away results, not because the opposition play a blinder, or score a worldy, but we make stupid, unnecessary decisions, at both ends of the pitch. Its all self inflicted, and that is what is so frustrating.
The other problem is we don't seem to learn from the mistakes, because we make the same mistakes again and again.

We still look a very good team, at times the best in the league, but it all could be for nothing, if VK and the coaches don't sort it out.

Colburn_Claret wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 05, 2022 11:55 pm

We still look a very good team, at times the best in the league, but it all could be for nothing, if VK and the coaches don't sort it out.

I got pelters last week for this but this is exactly how I feel.

We might be the best team in the league. Certainly the best squad I think. But I see us as finishing mid table despite that talent because we’re not playing well enough to beat teams, which is frustrating.

These dropped points will certainly cost us.

Sense we’re in the weird position of needing to change & leave some great players on the bench in order to find the best team. Convinced after tonight that we need Taylor LB and at some point a proper 10 (Brownhill dropped or to replace one of Cork/Cullen),