Defending today

[Conroy92]

While I thought we were abysmal at times at the back, specifically the second half, I'd also point out the comparative size difference we have there. I can't attribute all the blame for defenders losing out in aerial duals when it appears to be some of our weakest attributes. It looks to me like we have been "found out" in this respect and I imagine after today most teams will be looking at this as a blueprint to getting points against us. It's also backed up with a keeper who doesn't command or claim balls which is a bit of a double whammy. We may need to have a bit of rethink at the back, perhaps Taylor needs to come back in, maybe we should look at starting BPF? Either way we are not quite physical and commanding enough with today's starting back 5. Maybe that experienced centre half is needed in January.

[ervi34]

For me the main problem was not defending corners/crosses per se. We've looked shaky in that department through the season and every other team knows that. Take a look at Rotherham game, they had a few corners in the first half and every cross looked dangerous to me. The difference between that game and today's game was the fact that Rotherham had a few opportunities to trouble us, while SUFC completely dominated us for about 25 minutes in the 2nd half.

If we were steadier on the ball and had more possession then maybe they wouldn't have created so much opporunities against us. It's easier to score if we let them have 10 corners.

[dsr]

We already knew we were weak at corners, and so did the rest of the league. Like ervi says, Sheffield were just better at exploiting the weakness which was compounded by Rodriguez not being there.

No doubt other teams have spotted we are weak on long throws too. Fortunately few teams have anyone who can do it.

[No Ney Never]

Quite simply there wasn't enough bo**ocks in our defence today, pus*ies the lot of 'em when it comes to close combat.
Don't get me wrong, great footballers, but you wouldn't take 'em into battle with you.
Think VK was happy to use it as an exercise to guage where some of these players are at, hence not bringing on Barnes, bringing him on wouldn't have helped to learn anything about those on the pitch.
VK has learned more about our squad from today than any number of training sessions.
We're still far ahead of where I thought we would be from 20 games after everything that's happened, so I'm far from devastated, just a bit miffed at how weak some of those lads looked today

[bfcjg]

There was defending ?

[Darnhill Claret]

2 defeats in 20.

In those 2 games we have conceded 6 goals. Not sure you could justifiably blame Muric for any of the 6.

Hi is young for a ‘keeper but I do think he will become more assertive with age.

I think he needs more coaching to stay on his line more for set pieces. It is difficult to get to the ball when there are so many bodies in there. If he does this he will judge the flight of the ball better and have a better % claim rate and confidence will increase all round.

[Lancasterclaret]

The intensity you need to compete disappeared for the first time in that second half

If you don't have that, that balls to fight for everything, then you will lose to anyone

I'm putting it down to tiredness though, rather than a continuing problem

Already been said by someone I think, but todays game showed the limits of what we can do physically, and it was obvious to them and the manager

Might not be a bad thing for the rest of the season

[MACCA]

Just watched the goals back, and on their 3rd ( I think ) Sheffield Utd got the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th contact of the ball, 3 of them headers all within 12 yards of our goal.

It really was Sunday league type stuff.

Although our height is an obvious problem for us and has been all season on crosses, we don't seem to have any danger readers like we had in previous years.

We lacked experience yesterday I thought with Brownhill and Jay out, maybe VK would have played Taylor or Roberts at Fullback just to add that bit of championship/English football experience into the team.

Anyway I'm sure if it's so obvious to the likes of us fans and opposition managers, it'll be something VK is aware of and working on addressing

[RVclaret]

For me the main problem was not defending corners/crosses per se. We've looked shaky in that department through the season and every other team knows that. Take a look at Rotherham game, they had a few corners in the first half and every cross looked dangerous to me. The difference between that game and today's game was the fact that Rotherham had a few opportunities to trouble us, while SUFC completely dominated us for about 25 minutes in the 2nd half.

If we were steadier on the ball and had more possession then maybe they wouldn't have created so much opporunities against us. It's easier to score if we let them have 10 corners.

Agree with this completely. We lost control of our usual game and as such we weren’t finding the spaces (that they were leaving due to their press) that we usually do. I know people sometimes question Jay dropping deep but yesterday was crying out for that link up in the spaces. VK could have been quicker to react by getting Dervisoglu on earlier, he showed immediately what we’d been missing imo.

[taio]

Agree with this completely. We lost control of our usual game and as such we weren’t finding the spaces (that they were leaving due to their press) that we usually do. I know people sometimes question Jay dropping deep but yesterday was crying out for that link up in the spaces. VK could have been quicker to react by getting Dervisoglu on earlier, he showed immediately what we’d been missing imo.

If you agree with this completely when the key point is about our vulnerability from crosses and set pieces, what has changed your opinion so much and so quickly when you were disagreeing with me yesterday for making the same point?

[Claretforever]

2 defeats in 20.

In those 2 games we have conceded 6 goals. Not sure you could justifiably blame Muric for any of the 6.

Hi is young for a ‘keeper but I do think he will become more assertive with age.

I think he needs more coaching to stay on his line more for set pieces. It is difficult to get to the ball when there are so many bodies in there. If he does this he will judge the flight of the ball better and have a better % claim rate and confidence will increase all round.

The think with Muric is that he doesn’t jump. He’s a big boy, but putting you arms up and expecting to reach through players isn’t going to win him the ball. Nick Pope would go right through Andy oft in front of him, but more importantly would jump and become 2-3 feet taller than everyone else. Muric barely ever leaves the ground.

[RVclaret]

If you agree with this completely when the key point is about our vulnerability from crosses and set pieces, what has changed your opinion so much and so quickly when you were disagreeing with me yesterday for making the same point?

I never disagreed with you for making the same point. This poster has it spot on in the sense we’ve never looked great from set pieces / crosses, yet it’s not been much of a concern as we’ve been able to limit the amount of them, due to our control of games. Your point was other teams should just do what Sheffield did, what I was saying is other teams have tried and failed, because we’ve not allowed them to dominate a game for 25 minutes like they did yesterday.

[taio]

I never disagreed with you for making the same point. This poster has it spot on in the sense we’ve never looked great from set pieces / crosses, yet it’s not been much of a concern as we’ve been able to limit the amount of them, due to our control of games. Your point was other teams should just do what Sheffield did, what I was saying is other teams have tried and failed, because we’ve not allowed them to dominate a game for 25 minutes like they did yesterday.

Of course others have tried and failed. Doesn't mean other sides won't target us in this area. Do you think this will have escaped most managers and they won't look to expolit this?

[SouthLondonexile]

Sheffield played well and worked like a pack of wolves in our penalty area and bullied and outmuscled us in the second half. They did their homework.
I do however think this is a perfect learning experience.
There is intelligence at the club to stop this type of defeat happening again.

[RVclaret]

Of course others have tried and failed. Doesn't mean other sides won't target us in this area. Do you think this will have escaped most managers and they won't look to expolit this?

Sure it’s a weakness (all teams have them) although if Jay Rod, Brownhill and Taylor are on the pitch yesterday I don’t believe they would have had such dominance from the throws / set pieces. Like I pointed out yesterday, we were in the bottom half of the ‘set piece goals conceded’ table, those 4 might have crept us up into the top now, mind.

[taio]

Sure it’s a weakness (all teams have them) although if Jay Rod, Brownhill and Taylor are on the pitch yesterday I don’t believe they would have had such dominance from the throws / set pieces. Like I pointed out yesterday, we were in the bottom half of the ‘set piece goals conceded’ table yesterday, those 4 might have crept us up into the top now, mind.

If you agree it's our weakness why were you disputing my only point about other managers targeting it? Why do you keep referring specifically to set pieces when the point was about crosses into our box including from open play?

[jmu1]

No coincidence that we had only Cork from last season in the starting 11. They had lots from their Premier League seasons. Far more leaders. Taylor at left back at least may have made a difference though always easier in hindsight

[Dark Cloud]

We didn't see or learn anything yesterday we didn't know. We've conceded so many times this season by not winning first or second balls in the air defensively. We have a brilliant back 5 (including Muric) when they have the ball at their feet. The 2 current CBs are the best "footballers" we've ever had in that position, but when it comes to defending the kind of high balls which teams in this division will throw at you, (and Sheffield were better than most at it) we're really not very good and we've seen it numerous times already this season and it's the one factor which could well ultimately cost us promotion.

[ashtonlongsider]

We are having a fantastic season and VK really is a breath of fresh air and we are honoured to have such an esteemed individual as our manager. That said, not being wise after the event, I was very surprised with the team news and imo he got the selection wrong. I'm not having fatigue, injuries or suspensions as an excuse, we must have the biggest squad in the Championship. I'd have definitely started with Taylor, either in a 3 CB or at LB, playing Maatsen in a more advanced role. There's no way i'd have started Vitinho. We have two other players in the squad who are better in that position imo. Inexperience and naivety cost us yesterday but in all fairness it has been coming and lets hope it's a wake up call because other clubs will be looking at our achilles heel.

[RVclaret]

If you agree it's our weakness why were you disputing my only point about other managers targeting it? Why do you keep referring specifically to set pieces when the point being was about crosses into our box including from open play?

My point was other managers have targeted it but with mixed success, and having been unbeaten for 16 games it’s maybe not as big a concern as made out. I agree more with the poster I replied to above that yesterday was the first time a team has completely dominated us, which led to set pieces galore, with Norwood putting every one of them on the money.

As for defending crosses from open play, I think it’s a mixed bag, generally we do okay - did they even have a chance from an open play cross yesterday?

[taio]

My point was other managers have targeted it but with mixed success, and having been unbeaten for 16 games it’s maybe not as big a concern as made out. I agree more with the poster I replied to above that yesterday was the first time a team has completely dominated us, which led to set pieces galore, with Norwood putting every one of them on the money.

As for defending crosses from open play, I think it’s a mixed bag, generally we do okay - did they even have a chance from an open play cross yesterday?

I didn't say it would always be successful. That would be daft given our league position. I said any manager in this league with any sense will tell his players to pump balls into our box, which I thought was stating the obvious until you disputed it.

Yes they created chances from crosses from open play. I was within thirty yards of our goal yesterday and watched closely the dynamics between Muric and our defenders.

I can tell you that even in the first half he wasn't communicating effectively and the defenders had a lack of confidence with Muric behind him - you won't have seen from the tele THB's reaction to him on more than one occasion.

I notice you said Muric's kicking was also excellent yesterday but it wasn't.

[RVclaret]

I didn't say it would always be successful. That would be daft given our league position. I said any manager in this league with any sense will tell his players to pump balls into our box, which I thought was stating the obvious until you disputed it.

Yes they created chances from crosses from open play. I was within thirty yards of our goal yesterday and watched closely the dynamics between Muric and our defenders.

I can tell you that even in the first half he wasn't communicating effectively and the defenders had a lack of confidence with Muric behind him - you won't have seen from the tele THB's reaction to him on more than one occasion.

I notice you said Muric's kicking was also excellent yesterday but it wasn't.

I was at the game yesterday, I have made the trip over from Italy for this weeks games. In fact I was also close to the goal (row F) so also saw THB’s reaction. You are right that he does seem a quiet ish keeper. Some of his kicking was off but also some very good. The composure at times and playing cute balls on the angle is excellent and it is a key part of our play.

Didn’t think they created much from open play yesterday, first half the only chance was the corners/long throws and from a distance, what I recall, it was similar in the second, aside from their offside 5th goal (incidentally Muric made a top initial save).

[CrosspoolClarets]

Having been at the game near the goal, then watching it back on Sky afterwards, I can see that much of the hysterics on here are overblown, with claims like “we have been found out” and “Sheff Utd” were fairly average”. The other dodgy claim is that we were dominated for 25 minutes, actually on 60 the game was quite even when Bastian went off, by 70 it was gone. Reminded me more of the Blackpool game.

Their set plays were some of the best I have ever seen. The throws come in “dead” and are hard to deal with, many were going over Muric and landing near the back post. The corners were right in the mixer each time.

We dealt with it poorly, heads dropped, and hadn’t picked our taller players. None of that means we will suddenly be vulnerable every game. Other managers will try, but most will fail. I really think there is little to see here. If we go up, we will need better defenders, but we'll get them.

[taio]

I was at the game yesterday, I have made the trip over from Italy for this weeks games. In fact I was also close to the goal (row F) so also saw THB’s reaction. You are right that he does seem a quiet ish keeper. Some of his kicking was off but also some very good. The composure at times and playing cute balls on the angle is excellent and it is a key part of our play.

Didn’t think they created much from open play yesterday, first half the only chance was the corners/long throws and from a distance, what I recall, it was similar in the second, aside from their offside 5th goal (incidentally Muric made a top initial save).

Excellent that you were over from Italy to watch the games.

I wasn't necessarily on about clear cut chances in the first half - I'm referring to our obvious vulnerability from high balls into our box and the lack of communication from and confidence in Muric that were the root cause of our problems. How did they not create much from open play yet have 28 shots with 12 on target which are pretty big numbers?

[CrosspoolClarets]

p.s. (can’t edit) some of the above I do agree with, Taio’s post being one. Muric’s kicking was patchy, particularly long kicking, and the dynamic with THB looked a bit on and off. But they are two City lads and know each other inside out, I wouldn't overthink it. Muric made some terrific saves in that spell when we were under the cosh, his defenders must have confidence in him as a shot stopper just not as a dominant claimer but we see that a lot in the Premier League.

[RVclaret]

Excellent that you were over from Italy to watch the games.

I wasn't necessarily on about clear cut chances in the first half - I'm referring to our obvious vulnerability from high balls into our box and the lack of communication from and confidence in Muric that were the root cause of our problems. How did they not create much from open play yet have 28 shots with 12 on target which are pretty big numbers?

I honestly reckon 75% of those shots were from set pieces. I don’t have the exact stats at hand but this xG shot map shows where the chances came from, then it’s a case of linking up the players with the chances recalled

https://www.infogol.net/en/matches/resu ... -05/956087

[warksclaret]

I watched the game again and from 60 minutes onwards the confidence in defending corners had gone. There seemed to be a wall of red and white shirts queuing for a header and we stood off them. There is a lot of protection towards Muric which is admirable, but at one point Egan stood in front of him, did not jump, Muric could not get to it, then complained to the ref he was impeded. The saves he made were bread and butter saves that Championship keepers make every game. When we concede there seems to be a lot of scrambled goals in the 6 yard area.He missed every single cross in either catching or punching

Muric is not solely to blame as Maatsen who is probably the best full back in the Championship at pushing forward is so poor at defending, leaving his wide man too much space and is never going to stop a tricky wide man. Vitinho is not quite as bad at defending, but not so good going forwards. Taylor has to start featuring in either a 3 CB formation or at LB, and Roberts has more discipline defending and is braver. I watch some of our bigger players liike JBG cowering in a congested area when the ball is swung over

A lot for the coaches to work on, but for me the priority is getting Taylor one of our best defenders back in the team as described above, and sorry but the search for a GK needs to be prioritised. Had we played someone like Spurs r Man City yesterday , even Leicester on current form, with that defence, the record for goals conceded would have surely been broken

[taio]

I honestly reckon 75% of those shots were from set pieces. I don’t have the exact stats at hand but this xG shot map shows where the chances came from, then it’s a case of linking up the players with the chances recalled

https://www.infogol.net/en/matches/resu ... -05/956087

Main chances from set pieces and also crosses from open play which is our only real weakness. I think two of their goals were from open play.

[NewClaret]

Watched it back briefly (won’t be doing so again) and I didn’t see massive disasters defensively on the whole. Not to say we were good, just several of their goals came from either them just having massive players and winning headers you’d expect, a few clearances that fell to them, and an unfortunate ricochet or two. Had Maasten’s shot gone in, or Zaroury done better with his first half chance, the game would’ve panned out differently.

Will it ever be possible to be really solid defensively with an attacking, ball playing side? I think we’ll always be a bit vulnerable tbh and will rely on those type of chances mentioned being taken.

[dsr]

Main chances from set pieces and also crosses from open play which is our only real weakness. I think two of their goals were from open play.

I think in general that if a corner is part cleared and the ball crossed back in, it still counts as a goal from a corner. The last goal (offside!) was open play.

[RVclaret]

The saves he made were bread and butter saves that Championship keepers make every game.

Had we played someone like Spurs r Man City yesterday , even Leicester on current form, with that defence, the record for goals conceded would have surely been broken

You made some fair and decent points in your post but these two I can’t agree with.

The first one, two of those saves were one on ones, neither are bread and butter for any keeper, if Pope made those saves he’d be creamed over.

The second, it’s completely redundant because we are not playing those teams this season.

[taio]

I think in general that if a corner is part cleared and the ball crossed back in, it still counts as a goal from a corner. The last goal (offside!) was open play.

Yes the majority of their goals were from set pieces which supports the view that we are vulnerable from set pieces, crosses from open play, long throw-ins and high balls into our box.

[Belial]

When Pep used to play a Dyche team he made sure they never gave away corners or set pieces around their box as he knew that was the main thing we'd get anything from.

If VK wants to emulate that style, this wouldn't be a bad thing to adopt because for all Sheff Utd looked decent yesterday, pretty much all their attack and chances came from corners, long throws, or follow ups to those (as have many other teams we've played so far)

[Dingo]

I'm not particularly concerned about our defence and there's a risk that we can read too much into one bad result. There are many more weaker defences than ours in the league as we've seen in our games (including those more vulnerable from set pieces), and we don't even concede that many set pieces. Every now and then a good team like SU will inevitably get on top of us and disrupt our possession game.

[ClaretLoup]

First of all I didn't go to the game or watch the full match highlights, however I did watch a seven minute highlight segment.

I can't see how Muric is to blame for any of the five goals Sheffield scored. The first two were back post headers knocked back across. The third one maybe was a potentially claimable cross, but Heaton would have stayed at home for that one, maybe Pope wouldn't. The fourth is a scramble in a crowded box. Indeed for the last goal he makes an excellent save, only for the ball to run loose to McBurnie to slot in.

[warksclaret]

You made some fair and decent points in your post but these two I can’t agree with.

The first one, two of those saves were one on ones, neither are bread and butter for any keeper, if Pope made those saves he’d be creamed over.

The second, it’s completely redundant because we are not playing those teams this season.

The point I was making was, we obviously have aspirations of playing in the PL.Which side with a 5 point lead before the game, and no defeat in 16 wouldn't ?.If Sheff Utd can give us a reality check, and other than corners/throws in were not much of a threat, then imagine playing like that in the PL

[Swizzlestick]

We have aspirations of promotion to the Premier League, there is a subtle difference. It’s very unfair to be putting this, or indeed any Championship starting XI, into a hypothetical PL situation when that isn’t the level we’re at. If we do achieve promotion, we can look at personnel, style etc then.

[RVclaret]

The point I was making was, we obviously have aspirations of playing in the PL.Which side with a 5 point lead before the game, and no defeat in 16 wouldn't ?.If Sheff Utd can give us a reality check, and other than corners/throws in were not much of a threat, then imagine playing like that in the PL

But this team is still early in its development. Beyer started his 8th game in English football yesterday. Zaroury his 6th. Benson his 5th. VK has talked (a lot) about development and improving post World Cup break. Having an off day happens. Fulham lost 10 games last season and conceded on average a goal per game, they are currently top half in the PL. As the poster above me says, it’s not fair to drop this team, right now, into any talk of vs PL opposition. There would be significant upgrades to certain parts of the team and we wouldn’t be playing so open, for example.