England

[GavlarClaret]

Pope for Pickford
Trent for Walker
Anyone else for Maguire
Phillips for Henderson
Use Grealish & Rashford for at least 30 minutes

Foden, Bellingham, Trent, Saka and Kane are all actually world class in my eyes with Rice, Grealish, Rashford and Mount not far behind...... and its not happening as we are (yes we have had relative success but we have enough to WIN)
Minimal play at the back and simply ATTACK EVERYONE. Whether it's Serbia in a Euro qualifier or Brazil in a WC final.

We need to recognise the crop we have is better all round than even the 90s golden generation and the strength is attacking interplay which in the big games we don't spend enough time doing

Pope is the keep for big games like yesterday - he saves their opening goal for a start and although his feet aren't great he is good enough otherwise for the play to be adapted around him, ie a better ball playing CB than Harry to limit use of his feet.

What are your thoughts? I'm a big fan of the mentality 'if you're good enough then you change for nobody' and with a year or two of this (which would be a culture shift) from the playing squad I see it being the only route to us enjoying a 4-10 year purple patch with this current group - which they are absolutely capable of.

[bumba]

Anybody who this Saka, Rice and Kane are world class are the reason England fans are constantly let down by high expectations.
Kane rarely shows up for England at tournaments or in big games he's been awful this world cup I think he causes more issues for the team now due to dropping too deep.
I agree we have a talented batch right now that were capable of beating France but we won't win anything with Southgate in charge. He's had two tournaments handed on a plate and managed to mess them up.
We came up against a weakened France team yesterday and he still didn't have the answers, we had a better squad on paper.
I was hoping to wake up to the news that he'd gone

[bobinho]

Not a chance in hell of that happening bumba.

The managers of the other major teams who are out have gone, but Southgate won’t because he won’t believe he’s got anything wrong. Won’t be sacked either because the FA will listen to him when he says he hasn’t got anything wrong. Shame really as nows the second perfect time to get rid.

And before anyone asks, it doesn’t matter who is or who isn’t waiting in the wings to take over. The important thing for me is that it’s not Southgate.

[Lancasterclaret]

Just checking here, this is the Harry Kane who won the "Golden Boot" in Russia 2018?

Thats the one we are accusing of not showing up?

That one?

[Lancasterclaret]

Semi-final, final, quarter-final

We'd knight people for that when we could either not qualify or get knocked out in the R16 after a tactically inept but full of "get in to them" type performances

[RVclaret]

Just checking here, this is the Harry Kane who won the "Golden Boot" in Russia 2018?

Thats the one we are accusing of not showing up?

That one?

Absolutely mental

[Lancasterclaret]

Didn't he score a lot in the Euros in 2020 as well?

[jrgbfc]

Didn't he score a lot in the Euros in 2020 as well?

Got 4 I think.

[Lancasterclaret]

Oh, and he equalled Englands scoring record last night as well

That one?

He's the one that "never turns up"?

[MT03ALG]

Oh, and he equalled Englands scoring record last night as well

That one?

He's the one that "never turns up"?

Kane has scored 36 goals for England and 17 penalties !!

[taio]

Anyone who thinks Kane has rarely shown up for England is completely clueless.

[taio]

Kane has scored 36 goals for England and 17 penalties !!

Incorrect.

[Lancasterclaret]

Kane has scored 36 goals for England and 17 penalties !!

The internet is lying to you

[arise_sir_charge]

I’ve been as critical of Southgate as anybody but last night isn’t on him. He got his bit right.

We nullified the best player in the world and for me were the better side and created all the best chances.

France got the breaks. Look at the winner, cannons off Maguire after Giroud had likely not got enough on it. At the other end, Maguire’s header lands the wrong side of the post.

The ref was terrible and their first goal should not have stood……BUT…….if you miss a penalty in a game like that then sadly you’re going home and deservedly so.

[mdd2]

But I don’t think the ref was terrible
Did ok imo
Saka foul was down to the Refs assistant and for me the Kane pen in first half should have been a free kick as IMO the foul started outside the box

[Burnley1989]

Just checking here, this is the Harry Kane who won the "Golden Boot" in Russia 2018?

Thats the one we are accusing of not showing up?

That one?

Yup, I’m sat here shaking my head

[Malvern claret]

I am not agreeing that Kane does not show up for big tournaments but the main reason he won the golden boot at the last World Cup was largely down to the number of penalties England were awarded. To put it in perspective, if John Stones had taken and scored England’s penalties then he would have won the golden boot and there is no way that would have made him one of the top strikers in the world.

[GavlarClaret]

My OP is more about the need for a further improvement of attitude in order to achieve what we have the capability to do.

GS has done a great job - the attitude and culture for national duty is a longer term project and he's done well there. Ive no doubt hes been great for the nurturing side of things but he's only really average at best tactically

The women did it in appointing Wiegman at the right time that the women's team had the players to do it.

[taio]

My OP is more about the need for a further improvement of attitude in order to achieve what we have the capability to do.

GS has done a great job - the attitude and culture for national duty is a longer term project and he's done well there. Ive no doubt hes been great for the nurturing side of things but he's only really average at best tactically

The women did it in appointing Wiegman at the right time that the women's team had the players to do it.

What do you think Southgate got wrong tactically last night?

[BabylonClaret]

We are 5th in world rankings so this is the stage we 'ought' to go out. France are 4th. It was a close game.

Honestly though I think England need the mental toughness. France didn't think they could beat England, they thought they would. That's the difference in Championship sides and good ones. If the belief was really there Kane buried that 2nd penalty

We are like Spurs at the moment - we need to win something to trigger that mentality in this group

[SalisburyClaret]

We are 5th in world rankings so this is the stage we 'ought' to go out. France are 4th. It was a close game.

Honestly though I think England need the mental toughness. France didn't think they could beat England, they thought they would. That's the difference in Championship sides and good ones. If the belief was really there Kane buried that 2nd penalty

We are like Spurs at the moment - we need to win something to trigger that mentality in this group

Exactly right

England believed they could win the game, France knew

[Darthlaw]

Standard England flatter to deceive by smashing minnows in the early tournament but come up short against genuine class opposition.

That isn’t a problem specific to Southgate, for what it’s worth.

Might as well keep him and hope he bucks the trend as there’s certainly no better alternatives out there.

[Burnley87]

England were outstanding, Gareth got every decision right in the tournament. The guy you would put your mortgage on in the end didn’t score the penny. Fine margins but we need to learn to come out on top of them going forwards

[Big Vinny K]

You can pick out dozens of big knockout games in the World Cup where the “best” team has been beaten. And dozens of games where the best players in the world have made a big mistake or missed a penalty etc

I do not understand how you can say that Kane nor England did not believe they were going to score the penalty or win the game. With all due respect that’s rubbish. It’s said with the hindsight of the result.

Simple truth is that both teams believed they could win last night.
Both teams showed they were more than capable of winning during the game.
Only one team can win the game.
Last night that was France irrespective of whether they were the better team on the night or not

[GavlarClaret]

What do you think Southgate got wrong tactically last night?

Mostly substitutions from last night but the issue isn't just last night. My point is the culture and mentality needs to go one step further and to do that we need a playing identity that fits with the right tactics. More importantly the players need to take it on, see it work against the big boys and have the 'know' rather than the 'belief' - which has been pointed out above

Circling back to my actual point - Southgate isn't the man to do it in my eyes

[MACCA]

Semi-final, final, quarter-final

We'd knight people for that when we could either not qualify or get knocked out in the R16 after a tactically inept but full of "get in to them" type performances

Inspite of him, not because of...

[Stayingup]

I’ve been as critical of Southgate as anybody but last night isn’t on him. He got his bit right.

We nullified the best player in the world and for me were the better side and created all the best chances.

France got the breaks. Look at the winner, cannons off Maguire after Giroud had likely not got enough on it. At the other end, Maguire’s header lands the wrong side of the post.

The ref was terrible and their first goal should not have stood……BUT…….if you miss a penalty in a game like that then sadly you’re going home and deservedly so.

I think that generally your assessment is correct. Perhaps he could have brought the subs on earlier than when we were 2-1 down. All in all we were not second best.

[BabylonClaret]

You can pick out dozens of big knockout games in the World Cup where the “best” team has been beaten. And dozens of games where the best players in the world have made a big mistake or missed a penalty etc

I do not understand how you can say that Kane nor England did not believe they were going to score the penalty or win the game. With all due respect that’s rubbish. It’s said with the hindsight of the result.

Simple truth is that both teams believed they could win last night.
Both teams showed they were more than capable of winning during the game.
Only one team can win the game.
Last night that was France irrespective of whether they were the better team on the night or not

I'm not criticising here. I'm saying that our approach was right, we played well and in the day perhaps had the better chances but ultimately we've not won anything for 60 years. That's a lot of mental pressure and whilst people pap on about us going out to the first decent side we play those sides hev more recently been there and done it that gives them an edge. Winning breeds winning and winners.

Look at United in 90 - good players, good side, struggling to make an impression. Almost but not quite. They won the league Cup the year after, then the prem and that galvanised them.

In sure that if England can lift a trophy they will step I to the same space France are in

[CrosspoolClarets]

……BUT…….if you miss a penalty in a game like that then sadly you’re going home and deservedly so.

You could also argue if you concede a penalty in a game like that you are going home and deservedly so - and France conceded three.

One was scandalously not given, but all experts agree it was a pen, has any side ever conceded three pens in a knock out game and gone on to win?

[Lancasterclaret]

Inspite of him, not because of...

What was our record post 1966?

Has it ever been as good as that?

[Big Vinny K]

Southgate getting a lot of unfair criticism on here in my view.
He seems to be getting little or no credit for galvanising the team better than any of the last half a dozen managers.
And then even though it is Southgate who introduced all these young players and started them in the team he gets no credit from some people suggesting his success is based on him being lucky to have those players at his disposal.

Like everything in football you can’t please all of the people all of the time and Southgate is never going to please some people unless he wins a World Cup or the Euros……which means these same fans based on the last 60 years could be still unhappy with any manager for a few more decades to come !

[Devils_Advocate]

What was our record post 1966?

Has it ever been as good as that?

Bobby Robson became a national hero as England manager and this was his full competitive record at that level.

Failed to qualify to '84 Euros from a group consisting of Hungary, Greece, Luxemburg and Denmark

In the whole of the '86 campaign we managed to beat Finland, Turkey, N. Ireland, Romania, Poland and Paraguay

In the whole '88 campaign we managed to beat N. Ireland, Yugoslavia, Turkey and we lost all three games in the tournament

In the whole '90 campaign we managed to beat Albania, Poland, Egypt, Belgium and Cameroon

So in 8 years and 4 competitions the only decent team we managed to beat was Belgium with the last kick of extra time

[willsclarets]

As far as I’m concerned we did most things right and everyone played well. We just came out on the wrong side, it happens and in knock out football that means you go home. But I feel better after that than I did in the final against Italy where I felt we just gave it away

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Southgate getting a lot of unfair criticism on here in my view.
He seems to be getting little or no credit for galvanising the team better than any of the last half a dozen managers.
And then even though it is Southgate who introduced all these young players and started them in the team he gets no credit from some people suggesting his success is based on him being lucky to have those players at his disposal.

Like everything in football you can’t please all of the people all of the time and Southgate is never going to please some people unless he wins a World Cup or the Euros……which means these same fans based on the last 60 years could be still unhappy with any manager for a few more decades to come !

Odd isn't it, how Belgium have failed to bring through younger players and Martinez is criticised for that but Southgate does it and is criticised for it....

[tiger76]

As far as I’m concerned we did most things right and everyone played well. We just came out on the wrong side, it happens and in knock out football that means you go home. But I feel better after that than I did in the final against Italy where I felt we just gave it away

Yes, the Euro final is the one that really got away from England, and sadly it might be a long time before a better opportunity of lifting silverware presents itself to the national side again.

[quoonbeatz]

This you, bumba?
https://twitter.com/talkSPORT/status/16 ... GXFeQ&s=19

[TheFamilyCat]

We are 5th in world rankings so this is the stage we 'ought' to go out. France are 4th. It was a close game.

Honestly though I think England need the mental toughness. France didn't think they could beat England, they thought they would. That's the difference in Championship sides and good ones. If the belief was really there Kane buried that 2nd penalty

We are like Spurs at the moment - we need to win something to trigger that mentality in this group

I do wonder if this is a result of a lack of winners in the squad. Henderson has won the PL and CL and is a standout leader. Stones, Walker and Sterling have won the PL, as have Foden and Grealish, though not as regular starters.

Pickford, Shaw, Maguire, Rice, Saka, Kane - not proven winners domestically.

Although in the past we had Terry, Neville, Cole, Lampard, Gerrard, Rooney and Scholes and won **** all so maybe that actually counts for nothing.

[1fatclaret]

Mostly substitutions from last night but the issue isn't just last night. My point is the culture and mentality needs to go one step further and to do that we need a playing identity that fits with the right tactics. More importantly the players need to take it on, see it work against the big boys and have the 'know' rather than the 'belief' - which has been pointed out above

Circling back to my actual point - Southgate isn't the man to do it in my eyes

Sorry but that is an absolute load of platitudanal bullshit. Our tactics, shape, energy and attitude were all impeccable last night. We made a couple of defensive errors and weren’t quite clinical up front. That was the difference.

I’m no Southgate fan by any measure, but he got it right last night