There should only be one winning outcome.

2

In May I wondered and worried about this season ... I was unsure when we lost so many established players, and VK brought in so many unproven at this level ...

Boy was I surprised and a bit shocked at the ease these guys have bought into VK's plan and pattern of play ...

Worried by the playing out from the back, yet excited seeing such skill we have in doing so (yes mistakes were made, and some still happen) the fantastic cross field passes and from balls from Muric into feet and (on the whole) controlled and play advances...

So my vote is the Championship for this season, and if all goes to plan and we get promoted its going to be a helluva ride next season

I was discussing this in the pub yesterday before the game, i believe that we wouldn't have been able to evolve and change as much as we have, and we would have ended up being relegated.

For a club like Burnley, rebuilding whilst in the Premier League is akin to fixing a misfiring engine whilst it's still running.

As the first scenario includes the appointment of VK, and all our main players staying, I'd say stay up all day long.

So number 1.

I voted for 1, on the assumption those players may have stayed (+ Cornet), but others would be brought in too.

2… var is killing my enjoyment… and winning is nice,

I was a"the sky is falling" predictor as we were relegated.
Saw us plummetting through the leagues and bankruptcy courts.
Absolutely loving our football now,and very optimistic for us now.
It will be tough to stay up if we get promotion next year with this team,but this season is very enjoyable.
2 for me

2 for me. Wanting to play at the highest level is for players. I just want to enjoy my Saturdays.

A break from VAR is wonderful.

How we are today
The much needed overhaul of the playing squad has happened, it was probably easier to do down in the championship and it gives them a season to gel in preparation for next season in the PL.

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 18, 2022 5:18 pm

How we are today
The much needed overhaul of the playing squad has happened, it was probably easier to do down in the championship and it gives them a season to gel in preparation for next season in the PL.

Tend to agree. That said, the fact that we had to get relegated in order to quicker turnover playing staff and evolve, perhaps highlights what’s wrong with our top flight and perhaps also with our ‘model’ of recent seasons?

It’s kind of a pointless question. We only have the benefit of knowing one of the outcomes.

2, I like a journey and this one's just begun, very impressed with VK and his management,coaching style. All the backroom staff sem to have a clear path and the players brought in fit perfectly, I can't imagine another manager actually being able to do this with our finances as they are. I think Mee and Tarkowski were off anyway if we'd stayed up. Lots to do though if we go up.

chekhov wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 18, 2022 5:27 pm

It’s kind of a pointless question. We only have the benefit of knowing one of the outcomes.

Many hypothetical questions tend to be pretty pointless; hence why they’re hypothetical.

Gotta be scenario 2.

Massive changes were needed, thankfully they seem to be working (for now).

Whether I always agreed with him this season, I said before we signed VK that it showed a statement of intent from the chairman and I still believe that.

2 the whole club needed a change of image and personnel and VK has delivered that whilst also producing results amidst the large rebuild.

In a choice of the 2 scenarios as stated then the question leads me to 2, however I don’t think VK would have kept Pope, McNeil, Bardsley, Pieters or Lennon and knowing what we now do then I would prefer to have stayed up and trusted VK to put his own stamp on the playing staff and style of football.

jdrobbo wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 18, 2022 5:34 pm

Many hypothetical questions tend to be pretty pointless; hence why they’re hypothetical.

The problem with it is, as I said, we only know one reality. We don’t know what would have happened had we stayed up. We could be sat 4th place in the league with our best ever start to a premier league campaign!
Then ask the same question in reverse, to answer, oh actually I’d rather we’d have got relegated. Well everyone would think you were crazy! No one would imagine we could be having such an amazing season with our incredible new signings ripping up the Championship.
I understand it’s a bit of fun, but still a bit pointless!

chekhov wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 18, 2022 6:07 pm

The problem with it is, as I said, we only know one reality. We don’t know what would have happened had we stayed up. We could be sat 4th place in the league with our best ever start to a premier league campaign!
Then ask the same question in reverse, to answer, oh actually I’d rather we’d have got relegated. Well everyone would think you were crazy! No one would imagine we could be having such an amazing season with our incredible new signings ripping up the Championship.
I understand it’s a bit of fun, but still a bit pointless!

Yeah it is

Why?

We've had this very conversation a number of times this season. For me, we're better where we are right now.

Like Westwood, I was disillusioned with our style of play under Dyche.
Thank god we have a chairman with balls.

Sometimes in life a total reset is needed. So ‘2’.

Vinny wouldn't have been able to implement his style with those former players, and fan loyalty would have insisted they stayed. He also needed time to bed himself in and this season allows that,

Saying that though, we had some good players who could adapt styles, with 3 or 4 additions we could have been OK, particularly fullback. The most challenging issues would have been the need to sell Pope and let Mee go. They wouldn’t have suited this style at all. Also, in hindsight, we may view this clean slate as the best way to pay down the debt instead of plodding on in the PL with a millstone around our neck.

Second option, because the first was never likely to be a possibility. Not sure VK comes in without assurances that the squad is overhauled.

Slim pickings on the first option there JD.

It would have been very , very interesting if we had have stayed up & VK took over. I envisage the team would still look completely different to what we had and have now.

Most have picked option two.

Just completely fecking baffles me this site:

Two scenarios:

1. Burnley are in the PL with VK as manager and £50 million more to spend

2. Burnley are in the Championship with VK as manager with £50 million less to spend

ClaretPete001 wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 18, 2022 8:12 pm

Most have picked option two.

Just completely fecking baffles me this site:

Two scenarios:

1. Burnley are in the PL with VK as manager and £50 million more to spend

2. Burnley are in the Championship with VK as manager with £50 million less to spend

Indeed, but also with players that VK would very unlikely want in his squad despite having signed new contracts (hypothetically) and with not much to spend due to not selling Pope, Cornet etc…

The aim is to get back to the Premier League, which we look like doing, at which point we'll invariably be in a weaker position than in scenario 1.

ClaretPete001 wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 18, 2022 8:12 pm

Most have picked option two.

Just completely fecking baffles me this site:

Two scenarios:

1. Burnley are in the PL with VK as manager and £50 million more to spend

2. Burnley are in the Championship with VK as manager with £50 million less to spend

We're winning every week. Budget doesn't interest anyone on a week-to-week basis, it's the results and performances that get you excited. We aren't scoring three in a game three games in a row in the PL. Sure, we might have attracted better calibre players, but as some have mentioned above we'd have been committed to contracts for players who wouldn't work so well in this system, so either the playstyle suffers, or we have seven or eight Matt Lowton situations rather than the one. The championship is a perfect league for us to build a playstyle foundation which will hopefully be around long after Kompany had moved on to bigger things, because we're big enough in this league to spend strong and compete well while allowing breathing space for young players to adapt to Kompany's style, and to living in England. It's difficult to practice the fundamentals in the PL when half the league murders you for every bad pass.

jdrobbo wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 18, 2022 8:28 pm

Indeed, but also with players that VK would very unlikely want in his squad despite having signed new contracts (hypothetically) and with not much to spend due to not selling Pope, Cornet etc…

Probably not true.

We only spent £20 million. If we had stayed in the PL we would not have had to repay the capital elements of the MSD loan and could have used the PL broadcast money to meet the obligations of the former owners (arguably).

It was relegation that lost us the interest free loan from MSD.

I think we could have kept the best of the players from the PL squad and still had £20 million to spend on new players as we did at the start of the 21/22 season.

Rileybobs wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 18, 2022 8:31 pm

The aim is to get back to the Premier League, which we look like doing, at which point we'll invariably be in a weaker position than in scenario 1.

Will we?

I’d say that team was completely dead tbh. Wage bill had maxed out. Tark was leaving. Old heads on big contracts.

This way VK has able to build HIS squad, from back to front, invest in younger talent, all while we’ve reduced the wage bill by circa 75% (this means if we get back the wage bill will be nowhere near last seasons levels).

After a lengthy argument with myself whilst sat in the bath I have finally decided to go for option 2.

Spiral wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 18, 2022 8:33 pm

We're winning every week. Budget doesn't interest anyone on a week-to-week basis, it's the results and performances that get you excited. We aren't scoring three in a game three games in a row in the PL. Sure, we might have attracted better calibre players, but as some have mentioned above we'd have been committed to contracts for players who wouldn't work so well in this system, so either the playstyle suffers, or we have seven or eight Matt Lowton situations rather than the one. The championship is a perfect league for us to build a playstyle foundation which will hopefully be around long after Kompany had moved on to bigger things, because we're big enough in this league to spend strong and compete well while allowing breathing space for young players to adapt to Kompany's style, and to living in England. It's difficult to practice the fundamentals in the PL when half the league murders you for every bad pass.

As above I think we could probably have spent what we did this year and maintained the remnants of the old squad who were out of contract.

Getting relegated cost us £50 million of PL broadcast revenue and £30 million of capital repayments to MSD.

But you are right winning every week in the Championship is a breath of fresh air but we will be back in the PL next year with 5 quality loan players to replace in addition to Jay Rod and Cork. So, you have to factor that in as well.

RVclaret wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 18, 2022 8:37 pm

Will we?

I’d say that team was completely dead tbh. Wage bill had maxed out. Tark was leaving. Old heads on big contracts.

This way VK has able to build HIS squad, from back to front, invest in younger talent, all while we’ve reduced the wage bill by circa 75% (this means if we get back the wage bill will be nowhere near last seasons levels).

Well, financially we would be in a much healthier position for a start. I expect we would have had a bigger transfer budget to spend so our squad would be stronger. We probably wouldn't have loan players in key positions. On the flip side it would have been more difficult to undertake the rebuild and be competitive. But overall if we go back up we're starting from a worse position than had we stayed up.

That said, I've enjoyed this season far more than the last couple of Premier League seasons, but that's because we're top of the league rather than at the bottom. I've got a mate who's a Huddersfield Town fan and he's certainly not enjoying this season more than those in the Premier League.

RVclaret wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 18, 2022 8:37 pm

Will we?

I’d say that team was completely dead tbh. Wage bill had maxed out. Tark was leaving. Old heads on big contracts.

This way VK has able to build HIS squad, from back to front, invest in younger talent, all while we’ve reduced the wage bill by circa 75% (this means if we get back the wage bill will be nowhere near last seasons levels).

Most of the old heads were out of contract. Tarko was going to leave anyway and I don't think anyone would argue that Cornet, Mee, Mc Neil and Collins would not find a place in the first team squad.

And with 5 of the current squad on loan and Cork/ Jay Rod both 34 next year - it's far from clear what the squad will be in the PL

ClaretPete001 wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 18, 2022 8:46 pm

Most of the old heads were out of contract. Tarko was going to leave anyway and I don't think anyone would argue that Cornet, Mee, Mc Neil and Collins would not find a place in the first team squad.

And with 5 of the current squad on loan and Cork/ Jay Rod both 34 next year - it's far from clear what the squad will be in the PL

Mee said himself he felt we’d been hanging on for a few seasons and out of ideas. Cornet has spent the past 3 months on the treatment table. Personally think Zaroury has a higher ceiling than McNeil. This refresh as a club and fan base was needed.

As for the squad next season, last thing I’m worrying about right now, in fact it’s far more exciting to think of the build rather than worry. This is what I was like in the summer when there was a lot of doom and gloom on here with our signings and I was proven right in the end.

RVclaret wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 18, 2022 8:37 pm

Will we?

I’d say that team was completely dead tbh. Wage bill had maxed out. Tark was leaving. Old heads on big contracts.

This way VK has able to build HIS squad, from back to front, invest in younger talent, all while we’ve reduced the wage bill by circa 75% (this means if we get back the wage bill will be nowhere near last seasons levels).

What information are you using to know we've reduced our wage bill by c75%?

How many clubs, those of similar size to us, and similar budget, have been successful in undertaking a 180 degree shift in style while in the PL? Loads of clubs have used the champ as a place for a reset in their sporting model. I struggle to think of many smaller clubs who become more progressive while in the PL and make it a success. Brighton, perhaps? So many others, Brentford, Fulham, Leeds, built ground-up in the champ. Even Leicester carried their momentum from the champ through to a title win. The framework of that squad was welded in the champ.

RVclaret wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 18, 2022 8:53 pm

Mee said himself he felt we’d been hanging on for a few seasons and out of ideas. Cornet has spent the past 3 months on the treatment table. Personally think Zaroury has a higher ceiling than McNeil. This refresh as a club and fan base was needed.

As for the squad next season, last thing I’m worrying about right now, in fact it’s far more exciting to think of the build rather than worry. This is what I was like in the summer when there was a lot of doom and gloom on here with our signings and I was proven right in the end.

The OP included VK as the new manager so Ben Mee's comments are somewhat irrelevant. I think we could have added Zaroury to the squad and sold Mc Neil if that is what VK had wanted. It depends how much people want to conjecture.

What is not open to conjecture is that VK would still have been the manager and would likely have had £20 million to spend on the likes of Zaroury because we would not have had to repay the capital elements of the MSD loan.

Personally, I think if we could have added Cullen, Vitinho, Benson and Zaroury to the squad while retaining Pope, Mee, Collins, Cornet and possibly Weghorst we would have been very competitive in the PL. I guess we could also have loaned Bayer given he has come from the Bundesliga.

Corky wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 18, 2022 8:39 pm

After a lengthy argument with myself whilst sat in the bath I have finally decided to go for option 2.

Obligatory 'Weghorst is shite'.

Spiral wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 18, 2022 9:01 pm

How many clubs, those of similar size to us, and similar budget, have been successful in undertaking a 180 degree shift in style while in the PL? Loads of clubs have used the champ as a place for a reset in their sporting model. I struggle to think of many smaller clubs who become more progressive while in the PL and make it a success. Brighton, perhaps? So many others, Brentford, Fulham, Leeds, built ground-up in the champ. Even Leicester carried their momentum from the champ through to a title win. The framework of that squad was welded in the champ.

Only Leeds had a much publicised change of sporting model and they abandoned it as soon as...!

It's a bit of a stretch to name sides that have been promoted as successfully building a new sporting model in the Championship.

ClaretPete001 wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 18, 2022 9:22 pm

Only Leeds had a much publicised change of sporting model and they abandoned it as soon as...!

It's a bit of a stretch to name sides that have been promoted as successfully building a new sporting model in the Championship.

When I think of Leeds I think highly aggressive counter press. That's Bielsa ball. They're still an aggressive side. They were doing that in the champ and carried it through to the PL.

Corky wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 18, 2022 8:39 pm

After a lengthy argument with myself whilst sat in the bath I have finally decided to go for option 2.

Which option did the rubber duck go for

taio wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 18, 2022 8:59 pm

What information are you using to know we've reduced our wage bill by c75%?

It’s been reduced from around £80m to a number in the late 20 millions.
And that is from an impeccably good source !!

Has to be 2 and how amazing it has been so far, a draw or loss for Sheffield United tomorrow and it will look even better.

Big Vinny K wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 18, 2022 9:31 pm

It’s been reduced from around £80m to a number in the late 20 millions.
And that is from an impeccably good source !!

Does the £80m include previous non-recurrent bonusses for staying in the premier league and ceased contracts?