We need to hang on to the fellah as long as we can. Astonishing talent

Agree - bags of talent and energy. Will get even better.

Very raw. Does some bits well then lets himself down with final ball or giving the ball away with what looks like a simple pass.

Decent squad player but still lots to do to convince me to the levels of many other Burnley fans who seem to think he's incredible (probably just because he's Brazilian).

The way Kompany employed him last night suggests, in the right circumstances, we could use two traditional wingers almost a throwback to the days of outside right and outside left.

Thought he was solid enough last night, despite not playing in his preferred position. The full back was very physical, as were Millwall on the whole.

Considering he’s moved around a bit and doesn’t play regularly, when he does come in, he never lets us down.

I think a sustained period of playing in his preferred position would really showcase his ability.

Agree he is occasionally guilty of sloppiness in possession but more than makes up for that with his other attributes. He has the unusual quality of both being very versatile and being a game changer. We are very lucky to have got him for a steal.

I thought he was good last night, Similarly Twine but they seem to have been the ones picking up lowing marks on the ratings thread.

arise_sir_charge wrote: ↑

Wed Feb 22, 2023 9:30 am

I thought he was good last night, Similarly Twine but they seem to have been the ones picking up lowing marks on the ratings thread.

Agree. I’ve not been a fan, in general, of Vitinho on the wing, though last night I thought he was decent, beat his man on several occasions and helped create some of our best chances (including the goal?). Twine was also good, finding space in areas others might not and more often than not played the right ball. Probably needs more minutes to get sharpness up in front of goal, I reckon at full pelt last season for MK Dons he sticks one of them shots in the back of the net.

Vitinho is a very good squad player as he does 'alright' at the worst in multiple positions - vital for us in that sense. Versatile, doesn't fuss and has scored a few too. Great signing for a paltry figure and still only 23. He was alright last night.

To the posts above, Twine impressed me more - I think having him just ahead of Cullen and Brownhill really should be given a go in this run of three games against the relegation spot sides. We do not need to be playing Cork in those games, in my opinion.

Jakubs Tash wrote: ↑

Wed Feb 22, 2023 9:19 am

Very raw. Does some bits well then lets himself down with final ball or giving the ball away with what looks like a simple pass.

Decent squad player but still lots to do to convince me to the levels of many other Burnley fans who seem to think he's incredible (probably just because he's Brazilian).

Disagree. His end product is often there.
Wigan away he played leftback and created two goals (stats show 1 but his ball in both times led to goals).
His last few bench appearances, he's been right wing, left wing, scored within seconds in one, won a penalty in another.
Last night, he put in a fantastic cross for Barnes who just wasn't mobile enough to get a better connection on it, and teed up Brownhill excellently for his shot to the post.
He's surprisingly good at making impactful contributions with minimal gametime and in various positions.

Compare Zaroury recently, who's always in his preferred position, but for several games now has dazzling mazy runs beating defenders, gets to the byline or comes inside, and then fails to find a teammate with the ball or balloons a shot. Against Preston and Millwall he was cutting them apart with his dribbling but not finding a teammate with his crosses or cutbacks or hitting the target at the end of it. He was fantastic September to November but his end product has dipped, I'd say since the World Cup to be honest.

jedi_master wrote: ↑

Wed Feb 22, 2023 10:01 am

Vitinho is a very good squad player as he does 'alright' at the worst in multiple positions - vital for us in that sense. Versatile, doesn't fuss and has scored a few too. Great signing for a paltry figure and still only 23. He was alright last night.

To the posts above, Twine impressed me more - I think having him just ahead of Cullen and Brownhill really should be given a go in this run of three games against the relegation spot sides. We do not need to be playing Cork in those games, in my opinion.

I agree with the first bit. I'm not even sure what Vitinho's best position is as he's played both sides at the back and further forward. I do like him defensively as he has the pace to stick with opposing wingers but is skilful so an option further forward.
With regards to Cork, VK isn't going to rest Cork in all 3 games and rightly so IMO.
In fact the games against the bottom 3 teams I wouldn't be taking for granted. I'd be going strong and going for 9 points.

Good analysis there Jak...Vitinho is Mr Versatile with the ability to glide past an opponent, thread a lethl pass, break down play and turn it into attack. IMO this guy will be the glue that keeps the team if we can gang on to him.

Let's try that again....
Good analysis there Jak...Vitinho is Mr Versatile with the ability to glide past an opponent, thread a lethal pass, break down play and turn it into attack. IMO this guy will be the glue that holds this team together assuming we can hang on to him.

spt_claret wrote: ↑

Wed Feb 22, 2023 10:24 am

Disagree. His end product is often there.
Wigan away he played leftback and created two goals (stats show 1 but his ball in both times led to goals).
His last few bench appearances, he's been right wing, left wing, scored within seconds in one, won a penalty in another.
Last night, he put in a fantastic cross for Barnes who just wasn't mobile enough to get a better connection on it, and teed up Brownhill excellently for his shot to the post.
He's surprisingly good at making impactful contributions with minimal gametime and in various positions.

Compare Zaroury recently, who's always in his preferred position, but for several games now has dazzling mazy runs beating defenders, gets to the byline or comes inside, and then fails to find a teammate with the ball or balloons a shot. Against Preston and Millwall he was cutting them apart with his dribbling but not finding a teammate with his crosses or cutbacks or hitting the target at the end of it. He was fantastic September to November but his end product has dipped, I'd say since the World Cup to be honest.

The goal last night came from his cross too.

I love Vitinho. I think he suffers from being a Jack of all trades, master of none.
He would probably benefit from a long run in the side in a fixed position, but his strength to us is that versatility.
I wouldn't change him at all. He's Brazilian.......and a steal

spt_claret wrote: ↑

Wed Feb 22, 2023 10:24 am

Disagree. His end product is often there.
Wigan away he played leftback and created two goals (stats show 1 but his ball in both times led to goals).
His last few bench appearances, he's been right wing, left wing, scored within seconds in one, won a penalty in another.
Last night, he put in a fantastic cross for Barnes who just wasn't mobile enough to get a better connection on it, and teed up Brownhill excellently for his shot to the post.
He's surprisingly good at making impactful contributions with minimal gametime and in various positions.

Compare Zaroury recently, who's always in his preferred position, but for several games now has dazzling mazy runs beating defenders, gets to the byline or comes inside, and then fails to find a teammate with the ball or balloons a shot. Against Preston and Millwall he was cutting them apart with his dribbling but not finding a teammate with his crosses or cutbacks or hitting the target at the end of it. He was fantastic September to November but his end product has dipped, I'd say since the World Cup to be honest.

His crossing was ok last night when he kept it simple but we’ll have to disagree on your comment that “his end product is often there”.

My point was mainly based on him giving the ball away cheaply when it’s a simple pass and when he runs down a blind alley with the ball and ends up losing it. There was an example last night in the 2nd half where he cut inside and beat a couple of men but couldn’t find a teammate (whilst over-stretching as he’d basically lost the ball) and ended up giving it away. He’d done all the hard work and created the overload by beating his opponent but couldn’t make it count. The likes of Zaroury and Benson hardly ever give the ball away - their ball retention is excellent. Zaroury’s shooting was a bit erratic last night but he was so much more of a threat than Vitinho.

He’s not as quick as others make out so he’s ok when he makes a yard then puts the ball in the box but if it’s a foot race he rarely wins. That said, he isn’t a winger and he did a decent enough job last night at a time when we’re struggling with injuries for wide players.

As I’ve mentioned, he’s a good squad player but I’m not as giddy about him as some others.

He was outstanding against Wigan when he played at left back.

He can operate in a number of roles, if he can cut out the sloppy passes, which happen far too regularly, then he could easily become a regular in our side taking over from Roberts or Maatsen if we don’t sign him permanently .

His belief on the ball whilst under pressure is brilliant. He doesn’t panic and tends to get out of sticky situations whilst taking us up the pitch. Exciting to see a number of our players develop into next season and beyond

Wow no pleasing some is there
Remember last years mr versatility was Eric pieters
This years Vitinho
Mmmm let me think about it

Thought about it and I think I m giddy about him

The fella is really quick, and as mentioned, high impact generally.

Won the pen at Luton as well with serious skill / speed.

Good player.

UTC

He’s got a bit of magic about him that’s for sure

Jakubs Tash wrote: ↑

Wed Feb 22, 2023 4:01 pm

His crossing was ok last night when he kept it simple but we’ll have to disagree on your comment that “his end product is often there”.

My point was mainly based on him giving the ball away cheaply when it’s a simple pass and when he runs down a blind alley with the ball and ends up losing it. There was an example last night in the 2nd half where he cut inside and beat a couple of men but couldn’t find a teammate (whilst over-stretching as he’d basically lost the ball) and ended up giving it away. He’d done all the hard work and created the overload by beating his opponent but couldn’t make it count. The likes of Zaroury and Benson hardly ever give the ball away - their ball retention is excellent. Zaroury’s shooting was a bit erratic last night but he was so much more of a threat than Vitinho.

I was curious about your comments on end product and ball retention so decided to look at the stats.
FBref is probably the best out there, got a nice mix of simple hard numbers and the more complex, sometimes hard to define measures like xG and xA.

Note: this goes on a bit and is only going to be of interest to sad stattos like myself. I also don't know if FBref is up to date on all stats for the Millwall game which could skew it again, but it has Barnes on 4 goals so I'll assume it is.

Zaroury and Vitinho aren't the worst direct comparisons as they've featured for 17.4 full-90s and 17.6 full 90s respectively, similar gametime. But they're also not the best as the data doesn't account for their respective positions- FBRef only lists Vitinho's percentiles vs other fullbacks, so even his scouting report is hard to make use of as you've got to factor in his attacking stats will naturally overperform, and defensive ones underperform, as he's often been a winger. And the stats don't break down his data based on positions played, you're comparing Zaroury as a winger vs Vitinho as all positions, so you'd expect Zaroury to lead on most attacking/creating stats, and Vitinho to lead on defensive ones, and also on progressive passes due to how FBRef calculates this, they do exclude passes from the back 40% of the pitch but it's still generally going to result in lower PPs for players who spend more time in the final third as there's simply less distance to progress.

Shot creating actions- Vitinho has 45, 2.25 per 90. Zaroury 40, 2.30 per 90.
Assists- 1 vs 3, but expected assists is a better measure as assists are reliant on the other player finishing well, xA measures the quality of chances created, I'm not hugely sure on how it differs from xAG but I understand 1 refers to the pass, 1 to the resultant shot, xAG seems to be the better measure.
Vitinho has 1.3 xAG, Zaroury 3.9- so both should have more assists than they do based on playmaking, but Zaroury's differential is bigger, 0.9 to 0.1.
On xAG per 90, excluding Churlinov and Dervisoglu due to matchtime, Zaroury is 2nd in the squad behind Benson, Vitinho 7th, behind the other wingers & Maatsen but ahead of Jay, Barnes, Cullen and Roberts. Not electrifying but roughly on a par with whoever you care to pick given his position switching.
However A, xA, xAG all rely on direct assists ie. don't account for phases of play where say, a cross gets deflected or bobbled off a defender, first shot is saved but followup scores etc.
Goal Creating Actions is better for this as it counts the 2 steps before, capturing these sorts of scenario and illustrating key involvement in goalscoring plays. They're tied, 5 vs 5.
On GCA per 90, they're directly next to each other in the squad given their matchtime, excluding Foster Churlinov & Twine as outliers due to limited gametime they rank 7th/8th although the difference is so marginal it's practically tied. Interestingly, Gudmundsson narrowly beats out Brownhill and Benson to top spot- they're both joint second. Tella's surprisingly low on this metric too, 5 total GCA as well but in much more gametime.
Key Passes (passes leading to a shot), Zaroury has the lead, 25 vs 15.
Crosses, Zaroury leads, 22 vs 9.
Progressive Passes, Vitinho leads, 43 vs 39.
Completed passes in the final third- Surprisingly Vitinho leads 27 vs 18.
Completed passes in the box, Zaroury leads, 36 vs 12.

On passing, I'm again discounting players who've played less than ten full-90s- if you don't, Bastien surprisingly comes out as our most accurate midfield passer.
Pass completion- far from never giving the ball away, Zaroury is actually one of the lowest in the squad, only Churlinov & Obafemi are lower but worth discounting due to mins played. 61.7% overall, 79.7% short, 64.5% medium, 35.6% long. He's 2.5% behind Barnes, the next lowest.
Vitinho ranks 11th for players who've played at least 10 90s. 76.6%, 86.% short, 79.7% medium, 45% long. Behind the other fullbacks, very narrowly behind Gudmundsson in 10th who's on 76.9%, ahead of every other winger. About what you'd expect again given his position changes.
Vitinho has attempted a lot more passes than Zaroury- - for any data the bigger the sample the more reliable the measure, so numbers can be over or under skewed by smaller samples. Vitinho's pass type is more weighted to short and medium passes, so that skews it, he's more reserved in his play. Actually slightly more reserved proportionally than Roberts or Maatsen. Surprising then that his shot/goal creation involvement is so high, not got a great explanation for that.

On shooting, Zaroury's ahead. 34.3% on target vs 31.8%, Zaroury has taken a lot more shots though, so again, more reliable sample. Both outperforming xG but Zaroury massively so, he scores more unlikely goals essentially. Zaroury 2.5 xG, Vitinho 2.9, so Zaroury's 3.5 above target, Vitinho 0.1. No question Zaroury's the better goalscorer.

Possession- Zaroury has a much better dribble percentage, 41.5% to 26.1%, Vitinho's is one of the lowest in the squad actually. Progressive carries are raw numbers not weighted for matchtime, but Zaroury's ahead, and Vitinho's isn't great compared to other players in his position(s). Their touchmaps are hard to pick out and compare at a glance, unsurprising given their position differences.

Defensively, Vitinho is 4th in the squad for tackles attempted and tackles won, with less matchtime than the top 3 and the 5 below him. He's behind Maatsen who's played more but ahead of Roberts who's played more- also ahead of Beyer & Bellis but trying to compare positionally. Zaroury unsurprisingly ranks pretty low, 11th- ahead of Tella who's played more, ahead of JBG and Benson who've played less. Unfair to compare him to defenders.
On tackle percentages, Vitinho's behind all the other fullbacks, ahead of all the other wingers. Zaroury's ahead of Benson and Tella who are identical. Interceptions and blocked shots are similar- Vitinho behind the fullbacks, above the wingers. Combining tackles and interceptions he's just 1 behind Roberts.

Points per match, Zaroury wins, 2.35 to 2.12. Beyer has the most out of the >900 min club, followed by JBG, then Zaroury. Vitinho the lowest but actually almost identical to Cullen and Roberts who are on 2.13.

Net goal differential (scored vs conceded while playing) per 90 minutes- Zaroury is 3rd in the squad, Vitinho 6th. Surprisingly Jay is top followed by Beyer. Benson 4th, Brownhill 5th.
xG differential per 90 (expected scored vs expected conceded)- Zaroury is top of the squad. Vitinho is 5th. Jay, Brownhill & Beyer make up 2-4.

Miscellaeous stats- Vitinho is ahead of every winger for loose ball recoveries (raw number only), behind every fullback. Weirdly, it doesn't count Luton as Vitinho winnin a penalty, but I think it does count it as a Goal Creating Action. Zaroury is exactly where you'd expect- behind Tella, ahead of Benson/JBG, makes sense given gametime. Percentage of aerial duels is similar, Vitinho's ahead of every winger, behind every fullback. Zaroury is behind JBG and Benson ahead of Tella.



So what do these stats mean, really? My take isn't that they mean either player is better than the other as an OVERALL package, merely that they illustrate what the eye can tell you- Zaroury's a better goalscorer and dribbler with the ability to make things happen, Vitinho a better passer, tackler, and although equivalent in goal and shot producing actions, you'd say Vitinho's possibly got the productivity edge on average (even if Zaroury can pull off more individually brilliant creativity) given he often plays fullback. Vitinho's stats put him in between the wingers and fullbacks in general, he stacks up pretty well compared to the rest of the team as an equally promising prospect, just a different type of one- if you're relying on the wingers to be the main goal scorers (eg. inverted wingers with a false 9), he's probably not the one to pick, if you want them to be more creators/orthodox wingers, he's a good pick.

He's ultimately a very good player at whatever role he's assigned, which is generally different to either Zaroury/Benson style tricky wingers looking to score but also to the other fullbacks. Again this is all confounded by the fact these stats aggregate his performances as both a fullback and winger, but factoring that in, he's not underperforming relative to his teammates in equivalent positions or to what you'd expect as an aggregate given the position split, and demonstrates he has the skills to play either role, but because he's alternating between different roles, it's hard to point and say he's really over or under performing in either position.

Super

I agree. Very concise.

A big fan of Vitinho. Versatile, often has an impact and can score a good goal. Better further back than on the wing though. I’m sure there’s plenty more to come too.

For what it's worth I believe Vitinho has helped Connor Roberts push on and make the right back position his own, the competition has given Connor the fight and subsequently the consistency required and he is now proving to be a very good right back.

Vitinho is a very good full back in his own right but also willing and able to contribute in many other positions.

Culmclaret wrote: ↑

Wed Feb 22, 2023 9:29 am

Agree he is occasionally guilty of sloppiness in possession but more than makes up for that with his other attributes. He has the unusual quality of both being very versatile and being a game changer. We are very lucky to have got him for a steal.

How much did he cost us?

depechedingle wrote: ↑

Wed Feb 22, 2023 10:16 pm

For what it's worth I believe Vitinho has helped Connor Roberts push on and make the right back position his own, the competition has given Connor the fight and subsequently the consistency required and he is now proving to be a very good right back.

Vitinho is a very good full back in his own right but also willing and able to contribute in many other positions.

What helped Roberts was the end of the World Cup for which he had
an eye on from the start of the season. That's my theory, for what it's worth.

Funkydrummer wrote: ↑

Wed Feb 22, 2023 10:36 pm

What helped Roberts was the end of the World Cup for which he had
an eye on from the start of the season. That's my theory, for what it's worth.

Not just a theory, he admitted it himself.

Versatile with a great attitude.

It's almost (but not quite) like having a PL level Graham Branch.

KRBFC wrote: ↑

Wed Feb 22, 2023 1:50 pm

The goal last night came from his cross too.

As did the Brownhill chance when he hit the post and should have scored.

Jakubs Tash wrote: ↑

Wed Feb 22, 2023 4:01 pm

His crossing was ok last night when he kept it simple but we’ll have to disagree on your comment that “his end product is often there”.

My point was mainly based on him giving the ball away cheaply when it’s a simple pass and when he runs down a blind alley with the ball and ends up losing it. There was an example last night in the 2nd half where he cut inside and beat a couple of men but couldn’t find a teammate (whilst over-stretching as he’d basically lost the ball) and ended up giving it away. He’d done all the hard work and created the overload by beating his opponent but couldn’t make it count. The likes of Zaroury and Benson hardly ever give the ball away - their ball retention is excellent. Zaroury’s shooting was a bit erratic last night but he was so much more of a threat than Vitinho.

He’s not as quick as others make out so he’s ok when he makes a yard then puts the ball in the box but if it’s a foot race he rarely wins. That said, he isn’t a winger and he did a decent enough job last night at a time when we’re struggling with injuries for wide players.

As I’ve mentioned, he’s a good squad player but I’m not as giddy about him as some others.

Who wrote that for you?

Bullabill wrote: ↑

Thu Feb 23, 2023 7:05 am

Who wrote that for you?

I’m sorry, I don’t understand your comment?