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Time Keeping Changes
Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2023 10:20 am
by Rowls
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/64762113
Welcome news. I don’t know a single football fan who isn’t sick of time wasting.
Re: Time Keeping Changes
Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2023 4:40 pm
by Hipper
I certainly do not like the 60 minute match idea.
The cause of the problem we have is not a fundamental football issue. It's about cheating - bending the rules to your advantage. Cheating is rife certainly at the top level. Concussion injuries and injuries generally; substitutions; goal celebrations; not retreating ten yards; kicking the ball away; childish activities like keeping the ball when you know it's the other team's throw-in/corner etc.. The players should be embarrassed about all this but they don't seem to be. Obviously it's not their fault as they are carrying out instructions from their coaches and managers. The concept of sportsmanship has been lost. What's required is to put in place measures to stop this cheating.
The problem is also that matches are different. In some games the trainer never appears on the pitch and this is mostly because both sets of players just want to play. In other games some teams (notably Watford) take every opportunity to go down and destroy any flow to the game (very much to their credit Fleetwood did not do this).
On time keeping the onus should still be on the officials to work out the added time needed. If the fourth official is given the task you just know that club officials will harangue him even more so I wonder if a separate time keeper might be in order.
Re: Time Keeping Changes
Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2023 4:44 pm
by evensteadiereddie
If the refs did their job and booked the time wasters after one warning, the problem would heal itself.
Kicking the ball away used to be punished with a booking. It should be now.
You can only assume the authorities have instructed refs to put up with it.
Re: Time Keeping Changes
Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2023 4:52 pm
by Blue Skies
Fleetwood whilst playing for penalties throughout hardly went down the time wasting route aka Rotherham, Reading etc. Their full back went down but with cramp but rose quickly and limped around until replaced. The GK didn't pretend to go short and then wave everyone up as Pope used to. He only once caught the ball and fell to floor. The time wasted is the officials. We want to get on with but must be taken from correct spot, just need a chat with a player. Fourth official fannies about with subs etc.
Re: Time Keeping Changes
Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2023 5:23 pm
by Blue Skies
Fleetwood whilst playing for penalties throughout hardly went down the time wasting route aka Rotherham, Reading etc. Their full back went down but with cramp but rose quickly and limped around until replaced. The GK didn't pretend to go short and then wave everyone up as Pope used to. He only once caught the ball and fell to floor. The time wasted is the officials. We want to get on with but must be taken from correct spot, just need a chat with a player. Fourth official fannies about with subs etc.
Re: Time Keeping Changes
Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2023 5:38 pm
by claretspice
evensteadiereddie wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 4:44 pm
If the refs did their job and booked the time wasters after one warning, the problem would heal itself.
Kicking the ball away used to be punished with a booking. It should be now.
You can only assume the authorities have instructed refs to put up with it.
Always thought it was fair simple. There's already a 6 second rule for ball in hand, and it'd be dead easy to out a similar time limit on goal kicks. Failure to get rid in the time period becomes an indirect free kick to the other side.
60 minute games won't work cos it just encourages teams to disrupt games without other sanction, and makes the end time impossible to predict (terrible for TV amongst other problems).
Re: Time Keeping Changes
Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2023 5:43 pm
by Vegas Claret
Book players for diving, book players for surrounding the ref, book players for faking injury
There you go, just got you 10 minutes back per game
Re: Time Keeping Changes
Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2023 5:45 pm
by Andreshotboots
I always find it bizarre that when loads of time is being added for time wasting, and a team scores late like we've done many times, the opposition then get all that added time they've wasted to try and get an equaliser..
Re: Time Keeping Changes
Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2023 5:48 pm
by yTib
Vegas Claret wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 5:43 pm
Book players for diving, book players for surrounding the ref, book players for faking injury
There you go, just got you 10 minutes back per game
this.
there are already rules in place to deal with this problem.
the folk who are in charge of football are so dimwitted i'd be embarrassed for them if they were not stealing a living.
Re: Time Keeping Changes
Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2023 6:03 pm
by GodIsADeeJay81
Stop the time wasting.
If the refs are microphoned up, have disciplinary panels to review the recordings and issue punishments for any could/abusive language aimed at the ref, we've all seen stuff said on TV.
The rule is meant to be Captains only to approach the ref, but that doesn't seem to be happening in
Sin bins would probably help too, 5-10 mins being a man down would help get their attention
Re: Time Keeping Changes
Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2023 6:06 pm
by Dark Cloud
I'm definitely not in favour of matches being reduced to 60 minutes, but what I am in favour of is having "time wasted" properly accounted for and added on. If people take goal kicks, throw lns and corners etc in a normal space of time then I've no issues with that, but injuries whether feigned or genuine and other stoppages and acts of deliberate time wasting just need to be properly kept track of by either the ref or maybe a fourth official and the appropriate time actually added on. I thought during and immediately after the world cup there seemed to be a conscious move in this direction with serious amounts of time being added on at the ends of both halves. If there really was an effort it looks to have petered out unfortunately as added time is again failing to take proper account of unnecessary stoppages in play. Teams have known for years that if you waste 6,7 or 8 minutes the ref will only ever add on the statutory 3 or possibly 4 so it's definitely worth doing for those teams. It's really not difficult imo to make it not worth their while messing about wasting time by the ref adding 8, 9,10 or even more minutes on to games and making them actually play. Simple really imo.
Re: Time Keeping Changes
Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2023 6:35 pm
by martin_p
I often wonder whether the people who push these ideas actually watch football. A 60 minute stop watch would legitimise interrupting the game to ‘stop the flow’ a tactic often used by teams under the cosh. The game would become so bitty it’d be completely unrecognisable as the game we know. And of course as soon as you have a watch you can stop the next logical step for those looking to wring every last penny from the game is to stop it long enough for the tv companies to throw some ads at you.
Re: Time Keeping Changes
Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2023 6:36 pm
by Claret Toni
I know the ref for the Rotherham game took a slating on here, but I thought he handled the timewasting well. Jack Cork had a word with him, but was waved away, crowd was baying at him for obvious time wasting tactics, just ignored it all and added 10 minutes or so and played longer than that 'cos they wasted time in "time added".
The solutions are already there.
Re: Time Keeping Changes
Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2023 6:38 pm
by martin_p
Claret Toni wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 6:36 pm
I know the ref for the Rotherham game took a slating on here, but I thought he handled the timewasting well. Jack Cork had a word with him, but was waved away, crowd was baying at him for obvious time wasting tactics, just ignored it all and added 10 minutes or so and played longer than that 'cos they wasted time in "time added".
The solutions are already there.
But that’s not the solution, the solution is to stop it happening and the refs have all the tools they need to do that.
Re: Time Keeping Changes
Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2023 6:39 pm
by Lowbankclaret
Hipper wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 4:40 pm
I certainly do not like the 60 minute match idea.
The cause of the problem we have is not a fundamental football issue. It's about cheating - bending the rules to your advantage. Cheating is rife certainly at the top level. Concussion injuries and injuries generally; substitutions; goal celebrations; not retreating ten yards; kicking the ball away; childish activities like keeping the ball when you know it's the other team's throw-in/corner etc.. The players should be embarrassed about all this but they don't seem to be. Obviously it's not their fault as they are carrying out instructions from their coaches and managers. The concept of sportsmanship has been lost. What's required is to put in place measures to stop this cheating.
The problem is also that matches are different. In some games the trainer never appears on the pitch and this is mostly because both sets of players just want to play. In other games some teams (notably Watford) take every opportunity to go down and destroy any flow to the game (very much to their credit Fleetwood did not do this).
On time keeping the onus should still be on the officials to work out the added time needed. If the fourth official is given the task you just know that club officials will harangue him even more so I wonder if a separate time keeper might be in order.
That’s the average time in play. Would be an improvement on todays games.
Re: Time Keeping Changes
Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2023 6:42 pm
by Lowbankclaret
martin_p wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 6:35 pm
I often wonder whether the people who push these ideas actually watch football. A 60 minute stop watch would legitimise interrupting the game to ‘stop the flow’ a tactic often used by teams under the cosh. The game would become so bitty it’d be completely unrecognisable as the game we know. And of course as soon as you have a watch you can stop the next logical step for those looking to wring every last penny from the game is to stop it long enough for the tv companies to throw some ads at you.
Played basketball for. Time.
Stop watch stops each time the ball goes out of play. No time wasting goes on because you just know it’s pointless.
Re: Time Keeping Changes
Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2023 6:58 pm
by Blue Skies
Dark Cloud Aare you a mathematician or something you have spun the figures to a logarithmic level. Wasting time isn't just about seconds it is also done to disrupt the flow. Ipswich player went down under Manager's order following 20 mins of pressure. It gave their defence a breather. I am sure we did a lot of this under Dyche but the boot is on the other foot now!
Re: Time Keeping Changes
Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2023 7:00 pm
by Milltown1882
I’d take a rugby style stop clock tomorrow. You pay for 90 minutes and get about 50 minutes of football.
Re: Time Keeping Changes
Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2023 8:39 am
by claptrappers_union
I don't think it's a problem. Time wasting is frustrating but only when your supporting the team who needs the ball in play, but when your team is running down the clock it's ok.
I used to love it when Nick Pope had to stop and consider which side to take his goal kicks from against the top 6.
It's up to the ref to take control the game. There no need for radical changes
Re: Time Keeping Changes
Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2023 8:44 am
by dougcollins
Blue Skies wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 5:23 pm
Fleetwood whilst playing for penalties throughout hardly went down the time wasting route aka Rotherham, Reading etc. Their full back went down but with cramp but rose quickly and limped around until replaced. The GK didn't pretend to go short and then wave everyone up as Pope used to. He only once caught the ball and fell to floor. The time wasted is the officials. We want to get on with but must be taken from correct spot, just need a chat with a player. Fourth official fannies about with subs etc.
I absolutely agree that often the biggest time wasters are the 'look at me' officials. The ref against Fleetwood wasted far more time than they did.
Re: Time Keeping Changes
Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2023 9:41 am
by DCWat
Is the six second rule still a thing? If it is, it’s a long six seconds that seems to be allowed these days.
Re: Time Keeping Changes
Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2023 9:55 am
by Tricky Trevor
Lowbankclaret wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 6:42 pm
Played basketball for. Time.
Stop watch stops each time the ball goes out of play. No time wasting goes on because you just know it’s pointless.
Apart from the sides that just need the rest because of the pace of the modern game.
Some good posts higher up but yellow cards, for any delay of game, would eradicate it.
Off thread. I’ve been disappointed to see far too many players getting away with kicking the ball away since Roberts got booked at Norwich. I thought this might be a change in the wind moment.
Re: Time Keeping Changes
Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2023 10:12 am
by claretburns
evensteadiereddie wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 4:44 pm
If the refs did their job and booked the time wasters after one warning, the problem would heal itself.
Kicking the ball away used to be punished with a booking. It should be now.
You can only assume the authorities have instructed refs to put up with it.
Not wanting to be a conspiracy theorist but with how corrupt football has been in the past and still is today. Any chance the "authorities" you mention could also include the bookies?
With bet builder bets now being so popular with people betting on players to be booked in a game maybe refs are holding back to allow bookies to win the money and then this money is filtered back into football to the money men with sponsorship deals etc.
Re: Time Keeping Changes
Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2023 10:22 am
by summitclaret
Milltown1882 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 7:00 pm
I’d take a rugby style stop clock tomorrow. You pay for 90 minutes and get about 50 minutes of football.
It's so obvious that it can't be an accident that it's not been considered. Just copy Rugby Union. Ref says time off and then time on for a sub, injury or other appropriate stoppage, such as VAR. I don't mean for throw ins etc. Time is recorded by someone on the control box and crucially is displayed on the big screen.
At the end of each 45 minutes when time is up, play continues until ball next goes out of play.
Also, refs and VAR people should be miced up just like in RU.
Also, get rid of the stupid subs boards. Just put all up on the big screen.
Re: Time Keeping Changes
Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2023 10:24 am
by TheOriginalLongsider
The rugby time keeping seems better to me. Everyone can see how long is left. The clock stops when play stops. When time is up a horn is sounded but play continues until the ball goes out or an infringement is awarded.
Re: Time Keeping Changes
Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2023 10:34 am
by Hipper
Tricky Trevor wrote: ↑Sat Mar 04, 2023 9:55 am
Apart from the sides that just need the rest because of the pace of the modern game.
Some good posts higher up but yellow cards, for any delay of game, would eradicate it.
Off thread. I’ve been disappointed to see far too many players getting away with kicking the ball away since Roberts got booked at Norwich. I thought this might be a change in the wind moment.
There seems to be a certain distance that it's OK to kick it away - a couple of meters or so (not in the Laws of course, just in the referees mind or his instructions). Roberts blasted it towards their goalkeeper - some thirty metres.
Re: Time Keeping Changes
Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2023 10:53 am
by Spijed
Lowbankclaret wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 6:42 pm
Played basketball for. Time.
Stop watch stops each time the ball goes out of play. No time wasting goes on because you just know it’s pointless.
And don't you think that the likes of SKY would be pushing for sponsored time outs when there I'd a break in play?
Re: Time Keeping Changes
Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2023 12:04 pm
by winsomeyen
The refs have all the tools they need to stop timewasting and cheating, they just lack the balls to use them.
Re: Time Keeping Changes
Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2023 4:53 pm
by Lowbankclaret
Spijed wrote: ↑Sat Mar 04, 2023 10:53 am
And don't you think that the likes of SKY would be pushing for sponsored time outs when there I'd a break in play?
No because the time puts would be shorter than now as there would be no point in time wasting. I think they would just get on with the game.
Re: Time Keeping Changes
Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2023 5:20 pm
by dsr
1. If a player is wasting time taking a dead ball, then the decision is reversed and it goes to the other side. So a goal kick becomes a corner, a free kick goes the other way, so does a throw-in.
2. Any player who holds up play for injury, has to leave the field and can't come back till the next break in play. This includes those who hold up play or cause it to be stopped, even when they tell the ref that they don't need the physio.
3. Substitutions, the player being subbed has to be off the field within 15 seconds of the board going up. (The timing can be automatic on the board itself.) If he isn't off the field in time, then he still has to go off but the sub can't come on until the next break in play.
It's tough on those who are genuinely injured, but they're very much in a minority. If the players can't or won't be honest, then the laws have to be framed to take account of the fact that they aren't, and the innocent (not that there are many of them!) suffer with the guilty.
Re: Time Keeping Changes
Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2023 5:21 pm
by dsr
Lowbankclaret wrote: ↑Mon Mar 06, 2023 4:53 pm
No because the time puts would be shorter than now as there would be no point in time wasting. I think they would just get on with the game.
They didn't in rugby league. When the clock stopped for a scrum or drop-out, the players took the chance to have a break to such an extent that they now have a "shot clock" - even when the game clock is stopped, they still have a timer that tells them to get the ball back in play quickly.
Re: Time Keeping Changes
Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2023 5:22 pm
by NottsClaret
It's a tricky one. Players are clever. It's never just as simple as 'book him for timewasting'. As soon as you bring in one rule, they'll soon find a way to stretch it to its limit. As soon as the head injury only rule came in, you start seeing players always going down holding their heads if they want to break the game up. You're never going to stop it.
I'd give the 60 minute game a trial, see how it goes. You're going to see more football at least. And it is daft how you play out the last crucial minutes of a game, with nobody having any idea when exactly the match will end.
Re: Time Keeping Changes
Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2023 6:29 pm
by NRC
it's worth a trial in a local league somewhere
Re: Time Keeping Changes
Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2023 7:06 pm
by Rowls
There's more than one way to skin a cat.
All that's truly needed is the will on the part of the officials to tackle the players and implement the rules properly.
Re: Time Keeping Changes
Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2023 7:14 pm
by boatshed bill
dsr wrote: ↑Mon Mar 06, 2023 5:20 pm
1. If a player is wasting time taking a dead ball, then the decision is reversed and it goes to the other side. So a goal kick becomes a corner, a free kick goes the other way, so does a throw-in.
2. Any player who holds up play for injury, has to leave the field and can't come back till the next break in play. This includes those who hold up play or cause it to be stopped, even when they tell the ref that they don't need the physio.
3. Substitutions, the player being subbed has to be off the field within 15 seconds of the board going up. (The timing can be automatic on the board itself.) If he isn't off the field in time, then he still has to go off but the sub can't come on until the next break in play.
It's tough on those who are genuinely injured, but they're very much in a minority. If the players can't or won't be honest, then the laws have to be framed to take account of the fact that they aren't, and the innocent (not that there are many of them!) suffer with the guilty.
These ideas are pretty good.
Re: Time Keeping Changes
Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2023 7:25 pm
by Lowbankclaret
dsr wrote: ↑Mon Mar 06, 2023 5:21 pm
They didn't in rugby league. When the clock stopped for a scrum or drop-out, the players took the chance to have a break to such an extent that they now have a "shot clock" - even when the game clock is stopped, they still have a timer that tells them to get the ball back in play quickly.
Didn’t know that, always finding a way to cheat , bless ‘em
Re: Time Keeping Changes
Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2023 7:28 pm
by distortiondave
If the worldwide game of football starts to teach the young kids that gamesmanship is not a skill and is a form of cheating then most of the issues dsr raises will be gone in a generation.
Like the McNeil penalty yesterday - he was tripped, it was a penalty, but he wasn't kicked hard enough to go down, so he dived. He got the right decision, but had he stayed on his feet it would still have been a foul but he wouldn't have got a penalty. The player has been taught to go down, the ref has been taught* not to give the foul unless the player goes down.
*I don't know what referees are taught, I can only speak of what I see.
Re: Time Keeping Changes
Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2023 2:46 pm
by bfcmik
dsr wrote: ↑Mon Mar 06, 2023 5:20 pm
2. Any player who holds up play for injury, has to leave the field and can't come back till the next break in play. This includes those who hold up play or cause it to be stopped, even when they tell the ref that they don't need the physio.
OK, I'll just 'accidentally' stand on the keepers hand/ankle etc when he dives and pushes the ball away for a corner. He needs treatment and has to then leave the pitch until the next break in play - which, hopefully, is after I've put the ball into the empty net!
Re: Time Keeping Changes
Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2023 2:53 pm
by dsr
bfcmik wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 2:46 pm
OK, I'll just 'accidentally' stand on the keepers hand/ankle etc when he dives and pushes the ball away for a corner. He needs treatment and has to then leave the pitch until the next break in play - which, hopefully, is after I've put the ball into the empty net!
Perhaps I should have made it more obvious that, exactly as it is now, it's different for goalkeepers.
Re: Time Keeping Changes
Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2023 3:50 pm
by get stuck in tracy
evensteadiereddie wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 4:44 pm
If the refs did their job and booked the time wasters after one warning, the problem would heal itself.
Kicking the ball away used to be punished with a booking. It should be now.
You can only assume the authorities have instructed refs to put up with it.
Yes bob on, if those two infringements were sorted out we would get back to a reasonably normal in play/out of play ratio .No need for more additional contrivances .