ARTICLE: Clubs should hang their heads in shame over derby tickets

[Leisure]

Would take a while to implement which is why Im guessing nothing has happened already,

This. And as I keep repeating (and this is not because I don’t want any changes to the present system), to attempt to make the system fairer for some people will invariably be to the detriment of others.

[Here's-Johnny]

This. And as I keep repeating (and this is not because I don’t want any changes to the present system), to attempt to make the system fairer for some people will invariably be to the detriment of others.

So you'll welcome change? That's the way forward now regardless.

[Leisure]

So you'll welcome change? That's the way forward now regardless.

I'm all for change but it must improve the present system and not just be for the sake of change.

Petronius Arbiter, a Roman official at the time of Nero, wrote, 'We tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing, and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress while producing confusion inefficiency, and demoralization. '

[Here's-Johnny]

I'm all for change but it must improve the present system and not just be for the sake of change.

Petronius Arbiter, a Roman official at the time of Nero, wrote, 'We tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing, and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress while producing confusion inefficiency, and demoralization. '

Your looking good for your age .....

[Leisure]

I think that the problem that the Club have with making changes to the present system, is that until it gets put in place and used they can't be sure that it will address the multitude of issues which people are unhappy about with the present system and they obviously don't want to change to an even worse one! Whilst I'm sure a lot of the issues raised can be addressed through some changes, at the same time a new system may throw up a number of different ones and so the Club is back to square one!

On behalf of Burnley FC Supporters Groups, over the past couple of years I've reviewed the away ticketing system of every PL Club and they all vary. So our Club can't just copy one and be sure that it will improve things for us. We have also put a number of suggestions forward for addressing issues which fans have raised and offered to support a review of the present system but unfortunately the Club have not seen fit to engage with us on this

[turbo5]

I genuinely feel for lifetime die hard supporters who have been unsuccessful in obtaining a ticket. A lifetime of giving up their time and money attending games all over the country only to be told they have been unsuccessful.
I can empathise with the frustration. Personally I am short of the 6000 points so didnt even have the chance to enter. I am a ST holder but don't lay any claim to saying I should have been given ticket. A few seasons ago when I used to attend every single game home and away I would have felt differently.
My biggest gripe is people travelling on other peoples points, They will be people going to Blackburn who might not even have a season ticket or even attend any home or away games. They will be travelling on their neighbours, friends , relatives points. I think they had to show ID to get the tickets but once purchased they will be no cross checking of photo ID and tickets.
I think points allocation should be ratio'd in age categories eg under 8's 1000 points U12's 1500 points U16 2000 points etc until you get to 25 when you have had the chance to build up a points balance to match the older fans. This gives the younger fans the chance to attend away games based on the loyaty they have shown related to their age. I also think you should lose the points at the same rate as you accrue them .Eg no season ticket this season -350 points. Away games should be weighted on distance from turf moor unless you live outside a 50 mile radius then it should be home address. I also feel anybody allowing people to use their clarets number for others to use should forfeit their points if caught. If you can't attend for what ever reason and there is a waiting list the club should take back and refund and give the next person a chance. You should be able to do this over an app
The country should have an aligned ticketing system that scans season ticket cards for all clubs. Tickets put on your club card /app, Fans asked to bring some sort of ID, bank cards, driving license etc and away fans randomly asked to produced ID and tickets match. They could also use this to control troublemakers obtaining taking

[Nori1958]

Any changes to the system will have the biggest impact on those with the most points

And we've seen how well that goes down

[Sproggy]

>This gives the younger fans the chance to attend away games based on the loyaty they have shown related to their age

Rotherham tickets are still on sale. Where are all the young fans clamouring to get to away games for that one?

If we can't sell out an away game 50 miles down the road on the back of one of the best seasons we've ever had when we're in with a shout of winning the division, there isn't a problem with ticketing or loyalty point thresholds.

[Oppycat]

The Rotherham situation is very strange. It keeps being sold out, and then more tickets come up for sale.

[Leisure]

Any changes to the system will have the biggest impact on those with the most points

And we've seen how well that goes down

Possiby but depends on what the changes are.

[roperclaret]

I genuinely feel for lifetime die hard supporters who have been unsuccessful in obtaining a ticket. A lifetime of giving up their time and money attending games all over the country only to be told they have been unsuccessful.
I can empathise with the frustration. Personally I am short of the 6000 points so didnt even have the chance to enter. I am a ST holder but don't lay any claim to saying I should have been given ticket. A few seasons ago when I used to attend every single game home and away I would have felt differently.
My biggest gripe is people travelling on other peoples points, They will be people going to Blackburn who might not even have a season ticket or even attend any home or away games. They will be travelling on their neighbours, friends , relatives points. I think they had to show ID to get the tickets but once purchased they will be no cross checking of photo ID and tickets.
I think points allocation should be ratio'd in age categories eg under 8's 1000 points U12's 1500 points U16 2000 points etc until you get to 25 when you have had the chance to build up a points balance to match the older fans. This gives the younger fans the chance to attend away games based on the loyaty they have shown related to their age. I also think you should lose the points at the same rate as you accrue them .Eg no season ticket this season -350 points. Away games should be weighted on distance from turf moor unless you live outside a 50 mile radius then it should be home address. I also feel anybody allowing people to use their clarets number for others to use should forfeit their points if caught. If you can't attend for what ever reason and there is a waiting list the club should take back and refund and give the next person a chance. You should be able to do this over an app
The country should have an aligned ticketing system that scans season ticket cards for all clubs. Tickets put on your club card /app, Fans asked to bring some sort of ID, bank cards, driving license etc and away fans randomly asked to produced ID and tickets match. They could also use this to control troublemakers obtaining taking

Best post yet

[Leisure]

Possiby but depends on what the changes are.

Eg if they take 4000 points off people with 10000+ points and keep the top priority at 6000, then it won't make any difference to them.

[Spijed]

The country should have an aligned ticketing system that scans season ticket cards for all clubs. Tickets put on your club card /app, Fans asked to bring some sort of ID, bank cards, driving license etc and away fans randomly asked to produced ID and tickets match. They could also use this to control troublemakers obtaining taking

Who pays for every club to be aligned with the same ticketing system, especially as the cost will be quite prohibitive for many clubs?

Would that alignment include just the PL or all the EFL clubs as well?

[CrosspoolClarets]

I have no problem with us giving our ST to others to use at home but it is a different matter away when priority sales matter. Nobody should be able to attend that game who doesn’t qualify.

Not sure how it would be policed though. There will also be people selling them off afterwards for a profit, obviously not allowed so it doesn’t get advertised overtly but I bet it happens.

[Leisure]

I think points allocation should be ratio'd in age categories eg under 8's 1000 points U12's 1500 points U16 2000 points etc until you get to 25 when you have had the chance to build up a points balance to match the older fans. This gives the younger fans the chance to attend away games based on the loyaty they have shown related to their age.

Please can you explain in detail just how this would work? When you say under 8's 1000 points, what does this mean?

[andyh]

Tha FA have rules about away tickets for the FA Cup. The EFL should have rules that prohibit what Blackburn are doing. There should be a fixed percentage (the biggest currently) and the away team should either pay up for those tickets or say they can’t fill them and return the to the home team in plenty of time.

All this bickering is detracting from where the real problem is.

You don’t need fancy cards or systems if the ground is actually half empty… unless the home team are a bunch of fvckwhits… oh I forgot. In this case that is exactly what they are.

[Nori1958]

Possiby but depends on what the changes are.

Any changes would only be to help the younger fans, or a rolling points system where everyone starts a fresh...which is why I don't think owt will change.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

I have no problem with us giving our ST to others to use at home but it is a different matter away when priority sales matter. Nobody should be able to attend that game who doesn’t qualify.

Not sure how it would be policed though. There will also be people selling them off afterwards for a profit, obviously not allowed so it doesn’t get advertised overtly but I bet it happens.

The terms and conditions on tickets allow it to be policed easily.
Must be the purchaser/named person using the ticket and ID may be required.

Clubs just don't generally bother with it, but the tech is available to make it workable

[bumba]

The Rotherham situation is very strange. It keeps being sold out, and then more tickets come up for sale.

Ballot emails must still be filtering through

[Leisure]

Any changes would only be to help the younger fans, or a rolling points system where everyone starts a fresh...which is why I don't think owt will change.

But when you say 'Any changes would only be to help the younger fans', what specific changes are you talking about that would achieve that?

[Nori1958]

The terms and conditions on tickets allow it to be policed easily.
Must be the purchaser/named person using the ticket and ID may be required.

Clubs just don't generally bother with it, but the tech is available to make it workable

In over 60 yrs I've never been asked for id at a ground...its not going to start now...why should the home club police Burnleys ticket policy, its nothing to do with them

[Nori1958]

But when you say 'Any changes would only be to help the younger fans', what specific changes are you talking about that would achieve that?

Any of the many examples on this thread, which would allow them to purchase tickets they currently cannot buy, therfore lessening the chances of the high pointers

[LiamKennyBFC]

Any changes would only be to help the younger fans, or a rolling points system where everyone starts a fresh...which is why I don't think owt will change.

It would be really time consuming for the ticket office staff in this case but you could sort it out over a rolling 5 year previously so those that have been regular away day goers over the previous 5 or so years aren't being penalised and will still be in the top priority tier, those that have been sitting on 6000+ that haven't been regular travellers then cant complain as much when they aren't in the top tier for away tickets. The younger generation that have been regular travellers over the previous 5 year that will be nowhere near 6000 points aren't being affected, but like I say this would be so time consuming it probably wont happen.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

In over 60 yrs I've never been asked for id at a ground...its not going to start now...why should the home club police Burnleys ticket policy, its nothing to do with them

It may not change, but the tech is there to make it easy to do.

I've mentioned it before though, during a discussion on here about tickets being purchased by people for others who're banned from Burnley etc, because that's happened.

Data base of ticket holders with matching picture of face
Said database can be accessed by away club for that fixture only
Ticket scanners show face of purchaser at entrance, if they don't match, not entry
That could be done across the top two flights relatively easily.

I'd need to provide a picture of my face for Glastonbury tickets for example, I don't know if they check upon entry, I haven't been since the 90's.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

It would be really time consuming for the ticket office staff in this case but you could sort it out over a rolling 5 year previously so those that have been regular away day goers over the previous 5 or so years aren't being penalised and will still be in the top priority tier, those that have been sitting on 6000+ that haven't been regular travellers then cant complain as much when they aren't in the top tier for away tickets. The younger generation that have been regular travellers over the previous 5 year that will be nowhere near 6000 points aren't being affected, but like I say this would be so time consuming it probably wont happen.

Why would it be time consuming?
They already have a data base for loyalty points/Claret numbers/purchasing history
A good programmer could whip something up to sift through all the data so individual staff members don't.

[Leisure]

Any of the many examples on this thread, which would allow them to purchase tickets they currently cannot buy, therfore lessening the chances of the high pointers

Not very specific! Give me some examples.

[Nori1958]

Not very specific! Give me some examples.

Just read the thread, there's probably 50 different ideas to help younger fans...

[LiamKennyBFC]

Why would it be time consuming?
They already have a data base for loyalty points/Claret numbers/purchasing history
A good programmer could whip something up to sift through all the data so individual staff members don't.

A good programmer could but are we likely to use one given the fact there doesn't seem to be that much urgency from inside to change the loyalty point system. I'm all in favour for making it more accessible to 'reward' the active away day followers children included not those who have been sitting on points that maybe just do the local games when they come around just because they've benefitted from 350 points a season on a season ticket for numerous years.

[turbo5]

Please can you explain in detail just how this would work? When you say under 8's 1000 points, what does this mean?

I took my son on from 4-5 years of age and at 350 points per season so a 3rd season in and 1000 points is achievable, which should be equivalent to 6000 points for an adult. maybe 700 points is equivalent to 4000 adult points etc . The maths behind the system could be developed this was just an example . I am sure some software could easily distribute a fair points system based on age and the potential points earned.
To encourage the next generation of clarets we need to let them experience the matches. My lad is now 15 on about 4500 points, based on season tickets and away games he might reach 6000 points with enough away games by the time he is 18.

Another easier method would be a 5 year rolling points system, where the points are based on the current rolling 5 years. Kids of 10 years old. if the age of accruing points starts at 5 could be on as many points or more as a 50 year old supporter who hasn't attended as many games.

There are numerous methods of a fair points distribution which would allow younger fans a chance and also newbie clarets the chance to attend games. When I first started taking my lad he attended every home and away game. He had long slogs down then south coast , mid week games in London etc . Yet hadn't anywhere near enough points to attend key over subscribed games. The likes of the Blackburn game or Blackpool game they shouldn't be a single child in the away end if they have got their tickets through official Channels unless they are on players guest/staff guest list or corporate tickets which to me is an unfair system .

[taio]

It may not change, but the tech is there to make it easy to do.

I've mentioned it before though, during a discussion on here about tickets being purchased by people for others who're banned from Burnley etc, because that's happened.

Data base of ticket holders with matching picture of face
Said database can be accessed by away club for that fixture only
Ticket scanners show face of purchaser at entrance, if they don't match, not entry
That could be done across the top two flights relatively easily.

I'd need to provide a picture of my face for Glastonbury tickets for example, I don't know if they check upon entry, I haven't been since the 90's.

It's already been said, but why would the home club be bothered enough about the away club's approach to selling their allocation?

[Leisure]

Just read the thread, there's probably 50 different ideas to help younger fans...

Exactly my point!

[GodIsADeeJay81]

It's already been said, but why would the home club be bothered enough about the away club's approach to selling their allocation?

A standardised system across the league.
Helps ensure football banning orders are followed (we already know they aren't just amongst our fanbase)
In the event of any trouble it's easier to find those at fault.

You can all keep saying why should a club do this, that and the other, but I'm just giving a workable solution to something that people are trying to suggest can't be done or would be difficult.

[taio]

A standardised system across the league.
Helps ensure football banning orders are followed (we already know they aren't just amongst our fanbase)
In the event of any trouble it's easier to find those at fault.

You can all keep saying why should a club do this, that and the other, but I'm just giving a workable solution to something that people are trying to suggest can't be done or would be difficult.

I agree the technology is there. What I'm not sure about is that clubs would think it's a proportionate or practical solution that would add any real value to the home club. It would also probably cause utter chaos at the turnstiles. Feels idealistic rather than simple and workable. I suppose there are several.reasons why it's not already in place.

[TravisBickle]

If it was that easy, surely there'd be a one fit for all that all clubs then used. The fact that practically every Club has a different scheme seems to indicate that it's not as simple as you think. If a Club was starting a scheme from scratch then yes, that should be fairly easy to come up with something that's fair to everyone but to start changing a long established one is far more difficult. How do you come up with something which will be fair to long term supporters and at the same time is fair to new/young supporters?

60% of tickets apportioned to higher pointers. 40% ballot to any season ticket holder.

[Leisure]

60% of tickets apportioned to higher pointers. 40% ballot to any season ticket holder.

OK but why 60% and 40%? What about those with lower points? What about games where we won't sell out eg Southampton, Brighton etc? Is a ballot going to be used for those?

[GodIsADeeJay81]

I agree the technology is there. What I'm not sure about is that clubs would think it's a proportionate or practical solution that would add any real value to the home club. It would also probably cause utter chaos at the turnstiles. Feels idealistic rather than simple and workable. I suppose there are several.reasons why it's not already in place.

https://www.foxestalk.co.uk/topic/13116 ... y-tickets/

Sounds like Leicester are going to trial random ID checks next season, to ensure only those with the prerequisite loyalty points are buying and using the tickets.

At some point clubs/leagues will make a collective decision to use Tech.

[TravisBickle]

OK but why 60% and 40%? What about those with lower points? What about games where we won't sell out eg Southampton, Brighton etc? Is a ballot going to be used for those?

It was an arbitrary figure. But giving a higher volume to the ‘more long-standing’ fans but still giving opportunity to newer / younger / less ‘active’ fans.

After all. The die hards will always be die hards. It’s the walk ons and newbies that need to have opportunity too. Or they’ll soon find something else to do. And we will be back to low gates the minute we aren’t playing well.

Right now is the best opportunity we will ever have to attract and retain new fans. We should be doing everything we can to get them bought in.

I sense some more established fans would be happier to go back to 300 away fans.

[Robbie_painter]

Points this points that random ID checks etc etc can’t be arsed with it all.I’ll stick to the dodgy firestick and a few cans from now on.Your walk ons are going to be non existent soon.

[taio]

https://www.foxestalk.co.uk/topic/13116 ... y-tickets/

Sounds like Leicester are going to trial random ID checks next season, to ensure only those with the prerequisite loyalty points are buying and using the tickets.

At some point clubs/leagues will make a collective decision to use Tech.

It appears this is not a digital solution nor at any material scale like the approach you are suggesting. Very different and a fairly basic process affecting a small number of supporters only. I agree with you that technology will play a greater role eventually but the fact that it isn't being used now suggests it's not as simple and workable as one might think.

[TravisBickle]

Technology would be carnage. We’ve seen this season what happens when tolls go down. Turnstiles not working etc.

I’ve never had an issue ever attending with a paper ticket ( or cash).

I’ve had multiple occasions this season alone where my season ticket hasn’t scanned on entry.

[Bigbopper]

Scrap the ridiculous loyalty points system'
All tickets to be purchased personally from the ticket office.
First come first served.
One ticket per person.

Solved it.

[Leisure]

Scrap the ridiculous loyalty points system'
All tickets to be purchased personally from the ticket office.
First come first served.
One ticket per person.

Solved it.

Not good if you live miles away from the Turf! And if you work!

[Leisure]

Points this points that random ID checks etc etc can’t be arsed with it all.I’ll stick to the dodgy firestick and a few cans from now on.Your walk ons are going to be non existent soon.

There aren't any walk ons at away games!

[Leisure]

It was an arbitrary figure. But giving a higher volume to the ‘more long-standing’ fans but still giving opportunity to newer / younger / less ‘active’ fans.

After all. The die hards will always be die hards. It’s the walk ons and newbies that need to have opportunity too. Or they’ll soon find something else to do. And we will be back to low gates the minute we aren’t playing well.

Right now is the best opportunity we will ever have to attract and retain new fans. We should be doing everything we can to get them bought in.

I sense some more established fans would be happier to go back to 300 away fans.

But whatever you do to encourage/attract new/young fans, some will still miss out for some games when demand exceeds supply.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

It appears this is not a digital solution nor at any material scale like the approach you are suggesting. Very different and a fairly basic process affecting a small number of supporters only. I agree with you that technology will play a greater role eventually but the fact that it isn't being used now suggests it's not as simple and workable as one might think.

I know it's not a tech solution, but clubs are trying to find a workable solution for what's basically ticket fraud and at some point they'll go down the tech route.
It might take a couple of years, but it will happen.

[Robbie_painter]

There aren't any walk ons at away games!

Good point

[turbo5]

Who pays for every club to be aligned with the same ticketing system, especially as the cost will be quite prohibitive for many clubs?

Would that alignment include just the PL or all the EFL clubs as well?

I am not an IT professional but there are numerous software options that read across different types of systems. Totally different but ERP systems That can read across SAP, Purchasing, HR systems, planing etc all from different providers , its not mega expensive especially in football terms

[Bigbopper]

Not good if you live miles away from the Turf! And if you work!

Nit picking

[taio]

I know it's not a tech solution, but clubs are trying to find a workable solution for what's basically ticket fraud and at some point they'll go down the tech route.
It might take a couple of years, but it will happen.

Agree - but the fact that there's no obvious practical solution that is operating effectively at scale right now suggests to me that it is not as simple and workable as one might immediately think.

There will be consequences and practical difficulties that you haven't thought through when suggesting checking that everyone's identity matches.

The approach you were suggesting would have caused unworkable disruption at many or all of the away games I've attended this season. I struggle to see how it would have worked at scale at Huddersfield and Blackpool, for example, when it was already chaotic.

Not suggesting solutions shouldn't be considered or trialled - just saying that it's evidently less straightforward than one might initially think.

[Leisure]

Nit picking

Not if you can't make it to queue! A real negative! The kids we're trying to change things to allow them to get to games will be in school!