MOTD last nite, this morning

[bobinho]

Just watched the Spurs v Brighton game, and I have to be honest, I’m dreading the same sort of treatment Brighton got from the officials.

Is a level playing field too much to ask for from officials? Some positively baffling decisions really.

I’d be absolutely devastated if we were on the receiving end of that sort of dreadful officiating. Mistakes happen, I get that, but when you can go back and have a look at it and STILL get it wrong you can’t help but stop the “bent as ****” feeling from creeping in.

[Ric_C]

You can't help feeling that in instances where there is "contact" in the box, there is enough wriggle room for refs to side either way on a whim, especially when big clubs are involved

[RVclaret]

Reminded me of the awful VAR decision that cost us the game there last season

[Stproc]

The PL and its minions are institutionally biased. It’s there for all to see.

[gandhisflipflop]

I was going to post a thread on this. Like you I’m watching this back this morning and, as much as I cannot stand Brighton, the levels of incompetence in such a big game for them is incredible to the point where I honestly can’t help but believe that there’s elements of bias (to put it politely) in play.

[Rick_Muller]

We’ll be OK… everyone loves Vinnie

[Colburn_Claret]

Just watched the Spurs v Brighton game, and I have to be honest, I’m dreading the same sort of treatment Brighton got from the officials.

Is a level playing field too much to ask for from officials? Some positively baffling decisions really.

I’d be absolutely devastated if we were on the receiving end of that sort of dreadful officiating. Mistakes happen, I get that, but when you can go back and have a look at it and STILL get it wrong you can’t help but stop the “bent as ****” feeling from creeping in.

I must admit it made me angry watching that, it shouldn't as a bystander, but that just seemed so obviously fixed to get Spurs a result they just didn't deserve.
You can't trust Webb or the FA to do anything about it.

[Rowls]

Just watched the Spurs v Brighton game, and I have to be honest, I’m dreading the same sort of treatment Brighton got from the officials.

Is a level playing field too much to ask for from officials? Some positively baffling decisions really.

I’d be absolutely devastated if we were on the receiving end of that sort of dreadful officiating. Mistakes happen, I get that, but when you can go back and have a look at it and STILL get it wrong you can’t help but stop the “bent as ****” feeling from creeping in.

We’re going to get shafted.

Even when we were doing well and getting up to fourth un the Prem, decisions weren’t going our way and it cost us a good couple of points.

Arsenal is the one that sticks in the mind.

[Woonderbah]

VAR is and always will be selective to the point of being corrupt

[Lew200100]

It’s never going to change unfortunately. Referees and there assistants always do and will favour the biggest noise if there is a split decision and will go in favour of the bigger teams as they are frightened to death of making them drop points that could cost them a champions league position or title chance. They don’t care if they send a minnows team down as that will happen eventually anyway so it’s probably irrelevant anyway. It will be the same S**t for us next year but that’s why I don’t and will never watch the pundits on match of the day. Saint and greavsie were better at talking about games as it wasn’t all about technical play or decisions it was about fun but I guess the world wouldn’t like that anymore as you aren’t allowed to show people up anymore.

[claretspice]

There were two debatable decisions (that I saw) in the Brighton game. The shirt pull, wrongly, is very rarely given, and I suspect the determining factor, like in the case of the other incident when Mitoma was tripped, was that it wasn't obvious the fouled player would get to the ball. That's hard to judge on the replays but Mitoma had certainly had a heavy touch on his, when it is shirt pulling at a set play the benefit of the doubt always goes to the defender.

High bar for VAR interventions, and rightly so, so if the on field ref has formed that opinion then its not going to be overturned. Hard on Brighton though.

[warksclaret]

Reminded me of the awful VAR decision that cost us the game there last season

That was shocking-it even surprised the Spurs fans

[depechedingle]

Spurs getting VAR decisions, quelle surprise.

[CombatClaret]

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity"

There is no conspiracy they are just not very good or consistent.

I think there is actually too much caution to influence the game from VAR. Clear binary decisions are happily made, was the player offside, yes/no. Did it touch the hand yes/no/maybe with even the maybe's getting called because it's just easier.
Anything subjective like the pull & tackle in the box they will tend to shrink away from and hide behind the 'clear and obvious error' clause.

Brighton could have won 3-1 but all the goals would involve VAR. So in an attempt not to be the story and play it safe they actually make it worse for themselves.

[quoonbeatz]

There were two debatable decisions (that I saw) in the Brighton game. The shirt pull, wrongly, is very rarely given, and I suspect the determining factor, like in the case of the other incident when Mitoma was tripped, was that it wasn't obvious the fouled player would get to the ball.

Not sure that's a consideration, Spice. Countless penalties given where a player kicks the ball out of play and is brought down where they give a pen. Barnes v Liverpool was prime example of that but it happens loads where the fouled player is never getting near the ball.

[jedi_master]

It’s the only sadness about promotion - VAR. I cannot stand it and some of the decisions we had against us in the relegation last year were insane (Barnes ‘handball’ At Spurs for one).

The problem is that until we have some form of AI doing the VAR decisions (trust me, give it 10-15 years, it’ll be in place) it will always be an entirely subjective exercise, just like refereeing is in the first place. I haven’t an issue with it being in place for offsides, fair enough, but the rest is just as subjective as it ever was and dilutes the entertainment massively.

[gandhisflipflop]

The thing that I hate about VAR is the feeling that you can’t celebrate a goal fully without the fear of VAR taking that moment away. The moment you can’t get back even if the goal eventually gets given.

[Targetman]

There were two debatable decisions (that I saw) in the Brighton game. The shirt pull, wrongly, is very rarely given, and I suspect the determining factor, like in the case of the other incident when Mitoma was tripped, was that it wasn't obvious the fouled player would get to the ball. That's hard to judge on the replays but Mitoma had certainly had a heavy touch on his, when it is shirt pulling at a set play the benefit of the doubt always goes to the defender.

High bar for VAR interventions, and rightly so, so if the on field ref has formed that opinion then its not going to be overturned. Hard on Brighton though.

A player doesn't have to be in control of the ball to be awarded a foul, he doesn't have to be anywhere near the ball, he could be at the opposite end of the pitch and still get fouled by an opponent.

Whether Mitoma was going to get to the ball first or not is completely irrelevent, he was fouled by the defender in the penalty area. Penalty, there shouldn't be any debate.

In the shirt pulling incident the defender was pulling Dunk's shirt with both hands, again in the penalty area as the ball was coming across. Again it was obviously a penalty, the ref was looking straight at the incident with a clear view.
The VAR officials had a view from any angle they wanted yet still made the wrong decision.

[claretspice]

Not sure that's a consideration, Spice. Countless penalties given where a player kicks the ball out of play and is brought down where they give a pen. Barnes v Liverpool was prime example of that but it happens loads where the fouled player is never getting near the ball.

Think there's a distinction between a late tackle (Barnes v Liverpool) and a contact foul, and always has been. Look, I think its a penalty, but there has to be some logic to the decision and it never hurts to try and comprehend it.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

https://twitter.com/SkySportsNews/statu ... 2Wj0A&s=19

Webb has apologised, so everything is fine now...

[NottsClaret]

As ever with VAR, it's just some guy's opinion, same as it's always been since the sport began. A 'good' decision is simply one you agree with.

It's absolutely the worst thing about getting promoted, I can't believe any match going fan is in favour.

[Stproc]

I’ve just watched this game and there are no words to describe what they did. I’ve never been a fan of VAR, but now never want to see it in action again.

[CombatClaret]

The problem is that until we have some form of AI doing the VAR decisions (trust me, give it 10-15 years, it’ll be in place) it will always be an entirely subjective exercise, just like refereeing is in the first place. I haven’t an issue with it being in place for offsides, fair enough, but the rest is just as subjective as it ever was and dilutes the entertainment massively.

If combined with higher resolution and frame rate cameras you could see some form of AI determining if the flight of the ball changes ie: did it hit the player of not. Also more accurately determine WHERE it hit them, arm or sleeve. That would improve close-offside decisions too as the further away a camera is the larger the relative pixel size is. To take it to the extreme one pixel from a satellite can be a 4x4 meter box, 4k when shot from the roof of a stadium can only go so far.

Was their shirt pulled enough to be deemed a foul, not sure it will ever help there.

[claretspice]

It’s the only sadness about promotion - VAR. I cannot stand it and some of the decisions we had against us in the relegation last year were insane (Barnes ‘handball’ At Spurs for one).

The problem is that until we have some form of AI doing the VAR decisions (trust me, give it 10-15 years, it’ll be in place) it will always be an entirely subjective exercise, just like refereeing is in the first place. I haven’t an issue with it being in place for offsides, fair enough, but the rest is just as subjective as it ever was and dilutes the entertainment massively.

AI won't prevent decisions being subjective. It'll just be the subjective decision of a computer not a human. And imagine Shearer et al will get just as frustrated as they do with humans when it doesn't spit out the decision they expect.

[Spijed]

It’s the only sadness about promotion - VAR. I cannot stand it and some of the decisions we had against us in the relegation last year were insane (Barnes ‘handball’ At Spurs for one).

The problem is that until we have some form of AI doing the VAR decisions (trust me, give it 10-15 years, it’ll be in place) it will always be an entirely subjective exercise, just like refereeing is in the first place. I haven’t an issue with it being in place for offsides, fair enough, but the rest is just as subjective as it ever was and dilutes the entertainment massively.

But how could AI ever work out the difference between marginal handball calls (deliberate or not) when there is an opinion involved?

[arise_sir_charge]

Just watched it. There is no other explanation than cheating.

[CombatClaret]

Bias and cheating are two very different things.

IMO there are a ton of subconscious biases that add up.
- Home team advantage, it's as old as sport and well documented.
- Avoiding excessive correction of your professional colleague.
- Avoiding excessive influence on the result of the match where it also contradicts the decision on your professional colleagues.

You see it often in as an unwillingness to apply the rules where it would create a large material change to the game, a common one before VAR being a yellow card offense being committed but not awarded because the player is already on a yellow.

[Rileybobs]

I can’t remember the order of the incidents but here goes…

The Mitoma handball was given by the on field assistant. I think it’s a fair call that VAR doesn’t overrule that. However it demonstrates how ludicrous the ‘t-shirt line’ law is. I mean, who ever thought such an ambiguous law would be a good idea.

The Brighton disallowed goal for handball. This was given on-field if I’m not mistaken, and the replays I saw didn’t conclusively show that the ball was handled. This seems like a bad decision.

The Mitoma trip, 100% penalty every day of the week. Shocking that was reviewed and not given.

Dunk shirt pull, it would have been slightly soft, but if you’re reviewing that then you’ve got to give it.

I don’t buy into the bias, particular towards Spurs, who cares about them? But the incompetence is real.

[quoonbeatz]

Think there's a distinction between a late tackle (Barnes v Liverpool) and a contact foul, and always has been. Look, I think its a penalty, but there has to be some logic to the decision and it never hurts to try and comprehend it.

They're both late challenges though.

[RVclaret]

I can’t remember the order of the incidents but here goes…

The Mitoma handball was given by the on field assistant. I think it’s a fair call that VAR doesn’t overrule that. However it demonstrates how ludicrous the ‘t-shirt line’ law is. I mean, who ever thought such an ambiguous law would be a good idea.

The Brighton disallowed goal for handball. This was given on-field if I’m not mistaken, and the replays I saw didn’t conclusively show that the ball was handled. This seems like a bad decision.

The Mitoma trip, 100% penalty every day of the week. Shocking that was reviewed and not given.

Dunk shirt pull, it would have been slightly soft, but if you’re reviewing that then you’ve got to give it.

I don’t buy into the bias, particular towards Spurs, who cares about them? But the incompetence is real.

Agree with everything there and thought the same watching it live.

[Tall Paul]

AI won't prevent decisions being subjective. It'll just be the subjective decision of a computer not a human. And imagine Shearer et al will get just as frustrated as they do with humans when it doesn't spit out the decision they expect.

Computers can't make subjective decisions.

[jedi_master]

AI won't prevent decisions being subjective. It'll just be the subjective decision of a computer not a human. And imagine Shearer et al will get just as frustrated as they do with humans when it doesn't spit out the decision they expect.

Correct but it’ll (presumably) not have any unconscious bias when making its decision. It’ll also be the same set of circumstances for every single decision, not a troupe of various officials swapping in and out who may see things in different ways. I’d rather rely on technology knowing that in those circumstances it will likely be a fairer, more impartial system than what it is right now (in my opinion).

To the other points, I.e marginal calls on shirt tugs and what not - I wouldn’t put anything past AI. The leaps it has taken in 24 months are arguably more than has been accomplished in the preceding 24 years. Going off topic a bit, granted, but I definitely foresee a time in a decade or so where it is fundamentally integrated into officiating.