Just beginning to read this book about the history of Northern England by Brian Graham.
Two questions in the book's introduction:
1. Where does the North begin? For me it's the M6/ M65 junction; the tunnel that goes under the M62 near Elland; Simister Island junction with M66 depending on the route.
2, Who is a Northerner? For me it's anyone who understands the following: "wick" when referring to a pest invasion on plants or something or someone who's lively; "ginnel" for a short cut path usually between buildings; "shippon" for a cowshed. Met with blank looks too many times when I lived "dahn sarf".
Any other answers?

I think the North begins at the Scottish border and then goes down to Cheshire, Derbyshire and Lincolnshire. I don't think anyone thinks Grimsby or Skegness are in the Midlands.

So he defines Manchester as being in the Midlands?

martin_p wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 13, 2023 11:24 am

So he defines Manchester as being in the Midlands?

Must admit I think by that definition most of us live 20 minutes from the Midlands, which is news to me...

Liverpool and Sheffield are even further south than Manchester, and I doubt many would call then the Midlands.

1) North to me is peak district and above.
2) If you had: Gravy on yer chips, clip round the earhole if you're cheeky, and corporation pop out of the tap, you're northern

this is my view...

I live in Chesterfield and people here claim they are Northerner’s, but compared to back home I feel very much like this is ‘The Midlands’. The North stops at the bottom of Sheffield for me, which I frequently say to my Father in Law to wind him up .

Rick_Muller wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 13, 2023 11:38 am

this is my view...

north south divide.JPG

Almost, but being from the South anything above NORTHampton is North.

Midlands doesn't exist whoever heard of a North /Midlands Divide or a South / Midlands Divide.

From Dore upwards.

Buxtonclaret wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 13, 2023 11:53 am

From Dore upwards.

How strange!
Until 4 days ago i had no idea Dore existed.
Now that's twice in 4 days.
The first time? I was researching Emlyn Hughes on Saturday.

aclaretinstevenage wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 13, 2023 11:50 am

Almost, but being from the South anything above NORTHampton is North.

Midlands doesn't exist whoever heard of a North /Midlands Divide or a South / Midlands Divide.

The Midlands is the bit of no man's land in the middle that has all the bad bits from the north and all the bad bits from the south and is just there to act as a UN-esque buffer zone between the two.

Foshiznik wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 13, 2023 12:23 pm

The Midlands is the bit of no man's land in the middle that has all the bad bits from the north and all the bad bits from the south and is just there to act as a UN-esque buffer zone between the two.

yeah... I see it as the grey area

Draw a line from Stoke to say Skegness and that's the North.

jedi_master wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 13, 2023 11:48 am

I live in Chesterfield and people here claim they are Northerner’s, but compared to back home I feel very much like this is ‘The Midlands’. The North stops at the bottom of Sheffield for me, which I frequently say to my Father in Law to wind him up .

Yeah, it's all the North from Merseyside across to Sheffield and above. There's nothing to the East of that anyway, so just keep it a straight line to the sea. Chesterfield is 100% in the Midlands.

There is no way my wife (from Eyam) is a northerner

Derbyshire, Cheshire, Staffordshire - midlands

Those flat bits full of rivers in the east are some sort of frog based beings I think

The dividing line between North and Midlands is where people change love to duck as in "yes love" as opposed to "yes me duck"

I just asked a colleague from Derby and he thinks he is northern... Explaining that any accent that sounds northern is northern. He's got a bit of a mix of brum with yorkshire accent.

I am not too sure about that. I was born in Burnley, my family is from Burnley yet i lived in Wiltshire and Bristol for the majority of my life due to my dad's work so have a westcountry accent but would call myself northern...

Lancasterclaret wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 13, 2023 12:36 pm

There is no way my wife (from Eyam) is a northerner

Derbyshire, Cheshire, Staffordshire - midlands

Those flat bits full of rivers in the east are some sort of frog based beings I think

Derbyshire includes Stockport geographically! I think of Bakewell as being in the North and would draw the line across from Chester-Congleton-Bakewell-Chesterfield-Scunthorpe.

Foshiznik wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 13, 2023 12:44 pm

I just asked a colleague from Derby and he thinks he is northern... Explaining that any accent that sounds northern is northern. He's got a bit of a mix of brum with yorkshire accent.

I am not too sure about that. I was born in Burnley, my family is from Burnley yet i lived in Wiltshire and Bristol for the majority of my life due to my dad's work so have a westcountry accent but would call myself northern...

You need to put him straight, he’s not.

Northern is from here (Burnley) up, but not so far up you become Scottish,
South is down from here, except the middle it which is The Midlands….easy really

2 Bee Holed wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 13, 2023 12:14 pm

How strange!
Until 4 days ago i had no idea Dore existed.
Now that's twice in 4 days.
The first time? I was researching Emlyn Hughes on Saturday.

Was called the Gateway to the North back in the days of yore.

bfcmik wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 13, 2023 12:52 pm

Derbyshire includes Stockport geographically! I think of Bakewell as being in the North and would draw the line across from Chester-Congleton-Bakewell-Chesterfield-Scunthorpe.

Crikey, the idea of Bakewell being "Posh Northerners" is quite a hard one to visualise

Bet it goes down like a lead balloon in Bakewell as well

I think Stuart Maconie had Crewe as the southern most town in the north of England in his book Pies and Prejudice. An amusing look at the north south divide. He’s another out now, Full English, although I’ve not read that one.

I guess if you are discussing in the context of the north/south divide the line goes lower than if not as the midlands join the conversation otherwise.

bfcmik wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 13, 2023 12:52 pm

Derbyshire includes Stockport geographically! I think of Bakewell as being in the North and would draw the line across from Chester-Congleton-Bakewell-Chesterfield-Scunthorpe.

Stockport was Cheshire pre-74 changes.

The line of the North originally was the Dee in Roman times, above the Dee on the West side of the Penines were unconquered Bryathian Celts (originally from the Iberian peninsula) so everyone above the Dee was shown as ‘stranger’ on maps… or welsh without translation.

Foshiznik wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 13, 2023 12:23 pm

The Midlands is the bit of no man's land in the middle that has all the bad bits from the north and all the bad bits from the south and is just there to act as a UN-esque buffer zone between the two.

I quite like that!

Historically, Norwich was viewed as the North.

If you called someone in Bakewell (or anywhere surrounding the Chatsworth estate, i.e, Baslow, Calver etc) a Northerner you’d be liable to getting bopped on the head by some gold bullion.

I moved from Todmorden to Newcastle in 1977, the Geordies called me a southerner!

And Scots would call Geordies Southern. It's all relative, I guess.

ChrisG wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 13, 2023 1:03 pm

Stockport was Cheshire pre-74 changes.

Parts of Stockport, including Hazel Grove, were in Derbyshire

Many years ago there was a documentary on television about Millwall football hooligans.
One of them was being interviewed and expained what they were going to do to " them norven monkeys " at the weekend.
They were playing away to Bristol City.

bfcmik wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 13, 2023 2:20 pm

Parts of Stockport, including Hazel Grove, were in Derbyshire

I reckon Hazel Grove was just in the Cheshire bit, but it's very close to the border. Right old mix round there, with the parts north of the Mersey being Lancs (hence the name Lancashire Hill).

I used to live in Romiley which felt more Derbyshire than Cheshire, and certainly a mile up the road you're in the Peaks. Either way, a nice part of the world once you get out of Stockport town centre!

For those of us who really know our onions, this debate isn't about where "north meets south". That's a massive misnomer.

It's all about where the buffer zone of the midlands lie.

The midlands are geographic y-fronts, ensuring that north never touches south.

North West England is one of nine official regions of England and consists of the administrative counties of Cheshire, Cumbria, Greater Manchester, Lancashire and Merseyside.

The North East stops way further North and is to the North of Yorkshire and the Humber which is subdivided into East Riding of Yorkshire, North Yorkshire (excluding areas in Tees Valley of North East England), South Yorkshire, West Yorkshire, North Lincolnshire and North East Lincolnshire.

Administratively Skegness (53.14N) and Lincoln (53.22N) are part of the East Midlands despite being more or less in line with Chester(53.18N) and both of them North of Crewe.

Oddly Lincolnshire's BBC news is Look North as it is partnered with Yorkshire. ITV put Lincolnshire and Yorkshire together too meaning they'd get Granada so culturally they're Northerners even if they're administratively midlands.

For me the North is anywhere further up than Clermont-Ferrand.

dibraidio wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 13, 2023 3:07 pm

For me the North is anywhere further up than Clermont-Ferrand.

Nah, Nantes-Tours-Orleans-Nancy-Forbach for me.

lakedistrictclaret wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 13, 2023 2:38 pm

Many years ago there was a documentary on television about Millwall football hooligans.
One of them was being interviewed and expained what they were going to do to " them norven monkeys " at the weekend.at
They were playing away to Bristol City.

Funny how some things stick: That documentary was probably 40 years ago and that comment is the one bit of it that I remember too; especially amusing as Bristol in not just in the south, it's actually further south than Millwall is!

Rowls wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 13, 2023 3:07 pm

For those of us who really know our onions, this debate isn't about where "north meets south". That's a massive misnomer.

It's all about where the buffer zone of the midlands lie.

The midlands are geographic y-fronts, ensuring that north never touches south.

And I always thought you liked Nottingham.

FigSlice wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 13, 2023 11:11 am

Just beginning to read this book about the history of Northern England by Brian Graham.
Two questions in the book's introduction:
1. Where does the North begin? For me it's the M6/ M65 junction; the tunnel that goes under the M62 near Elland; Simister Island junction with M66 depending on the route.
2, Who is a Northerner? For me it's anyone who understands the following: "wick" when referring to a pest invasion on plants or something or someone who's lively; "ginnel" for a short cut path usually between buildings; "shippon" for a cowshed. Met with blank looks too many times when I lived "dahn sarf".
Any other answers?

I don’t believe it has anything whatsoever to do with geography… I believe it’s a state of mind. It’s an attitude of no nonsense, of wanting to just get things done with a minimum of fuss and drama. Of not using 47 words to get a point acrosss when it can be done with 5. Of knuckling down and getting stuck in, of ignoring minor hiccups and making do.

As I said, it’s a state of mind to me. It’s just being normal.

Steak n ale pie with chips and gravy with a pint of best

Avocado and quinoa salad with a hazelnut latte

North / South divide explained.

2 Bee Holed wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 13, 2023 12:14 pm

How strange!
Until 4 days ago i had no idea Dore existed.
Now that's twice in 4 days.
The first time? I was researching Emlyn Hughes on Saturday.

Interesting little piece here.


https://dorevillage.co.uk/pages/a-brief-history-of-dore

My wife was a North Country girl.

She thought the south started at Kendal.

dougcollins wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 13, 2023 5:53 pm

And I always thought you liked Nottingham.

I do.

But that's the job of the midlands. And let's not pretend that "the midlands" has an identity in the same way as the north or south do. It doesn't.

I say this as somebody born and bred in the midlands.

Mrs W was once on a work thing up in Newcastle and one of her colleagues offered to drive

On the way back, she got on the A1 northbound and Mrs W asked why they were heading north.

“Because we live in the north” was her reply

bobinho wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 13, 2023 6:01 pm

It’s an attitude of no nonsense, of wanting to just get things done with a minimum of fuss and drama. Of not using 47 words to get a point across when it can be done with 5.

As I said, it’s a state of mind to me. It’s just being normal.

There are a few southerners on here by that measure !

hecky thump! Proper Northerner!
https://youtu.be/PT0ay9u1gg4

Regional accents are fading all the time, especially when compared to three or four generations ago. People no longer stay in the same place throughout their entire lives. Outside influences that weren't around at the turn of the last century, like radio, TV, and the cinema will also have an impact.

I also think we sound more like our nearby West Yorkshire neighbours than those 10 miles down the road unmentionables.