Apology and Ref dropped after Utd keeper wipes out Wolves player,what happened when Krull wiped out Vydra ? Sweet F___k All.

Still furious about that. The most blatant of pens I have ever seen. Relegated us ultimately.

I don’t get why it’s so bad?

We can all see it as it happens………..

You rarely see the same, if any similar mistakes in rugby or cricket……..

It’s almost like a cricketer dropping a catch, but the umpire dismissing the batsman and Hawkeye saying nothing…….

All well and good apologising but Wolves have still been denied a penalty which could have given them a point and yet again a "big" club benefit from scandalously bad refereeing;quite a common thing at Old Trafford.

IMO obviously!

I seem to vaguely remember a similar challenge a couple of years back - dead cert pen and sending off.
Was it v Norwich?
Memory is not what it was.

Pictures circulating of Moss, Webb and Atkinson in United's hospitality suite at the game last night.... Don't upset the big boys!!!

ralph8 wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 15, 2023 2:22 pm

I seem to vaguely remember a similar challenge a couple of years back - dead cert pen and sending off.
Was it v Norwich?
Memory is not what it was.

Mentioned in the OP ralph8 Tim Krul clotheslined Vyds and we got nowt

Completely pointless since the damage has been done

Why would the ref be dropped, my understanding was that var didn’t tell him to go and look at the monitor, assuming he had a decent view he didn’t think there was anything in it. Wouldn’t var at that point tell him to go and have a look and wouldn’t Hooper be saying to var immediately after it happened “ what did it look like to you” or words to that effect, don’t forget Hooper would only see it in for a split second in real time, no replays and his view would depend on where he was stood at that time.

I think the quick and decisive action by the PGMOL along with the apology is a good step forward. If I had a penny for how many times people on here moaned about the refs sticking up for their own I'd have a lot of bloody pennies so we should recognise and welcome the PGMOL response as a real improvement and good step forward.

Carwin261 wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 15, 2023 1:23 pm

Apology and Ref dropped after Utd keeper wipes out Wolves player,what happened when Krull wiped out Vydra ? Sweet F___k All.

The argument was the Krull had got the slightest of touches on the ball and therefore it wasn’t a foul. Replays showed it may have grazed his glove but there was no mention that maybe the keeper walloping two fists into a players head may just be dangerous and cause serious injury. Keepers seem to get away with a lot.

VAR is quite expensive to clubs and often fails to do it's job properly.

Clubs should stop funding it until they put the incidents on the big screen, with footage of the VAR making the decision.

Or you will still hear allegations of corruption every week.

THE VAR and refs need to be mic'd up as we need far greater transparency for this to be sustainable.

At the moment it feels like the "checking club badge..." meme is spot on

Devils_Advocate wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 15, 2023 2:37 pm

I think the quick and decisive action by the PGMOL along with the apology is a good step forward. If I had a penny for how many times people on here moaned about the refs sticking up for their own I'd have a lot of bloody pennies so we should recognise and welcome the PGMOL response as a real improvement and good step forward.

The first rule of VAR appears sometimes to be "what is the colour of the shirt." I think VAR can eliminate this risk by a few changes.

VAR does not watch the game. Instead AI is used to create an "anonymised" video clip of the incident: anonymised so that VAR doesn't know which team is which, just "team 1" and "team 2" also Player A, Player B etc. AI would replace the actual team colours with shirt/shorts/socks that only distinguishes two teams and respective players - similarly, goalies identified by gloves/shorts/socks. Then VAR asked to judge "did player A for team 1 commit an offense" and so on - similar to the step by step lbw process in cricket. VAR conclusion converted to text and shared with the whole ground and the match referee at the same time. Ref then asked to make their decision - again similar to cricket umpire "stick with your call/change your call" etc.

It would be interesting sports science research to look at VAR decisions and see if an anonymised view of the same incident would come up with the same decisions as VAR/ref made during actual games.

And, for goodness sake, let's get some pundits who actually know the laws of the games - rather than ex-pros who make them up as they go along.

All 3 deemed not good enough for a week or so in the Prem but some poor soul in the Championship will end up with them officiating in some capacity you can bet

Paul Waine wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 15, 2023 4:14 pm

The first rule of VAR appears sometimes to be "what is the colour of the shirt." I think VAR can eliminate this risk by a few changes.

VAR does not watch the game. Instead AI is used to create an "anonymised" video clip of the incident: anonymised so that VAR doesn't know which team is which, just "team 1" and "team 2" also Player A, Player B etc. AI would replace the actual team colours with shirt/shorts/socks that only distinguishes two teams and respective players - similarly, goalies identified by gloves/shorts/socks. Then VAR asked to judge "did player A for team 1 commit an offense" and so on - similar to the step by step lbw process in cricket. VAR conclusion converted to text and shared with the whole ground and the match referee at the same time. Ref then asked to make their decision - again similar to cricket umpire "stick with your call/change your call" etc.

It would be interesting sports science research to look at VAR decisions and see if an anonymised view of the same incident would come up with the same decisions as VAR/ref made during actual games.

And, for goodness sake, let's get some pundits who actually know the laws of the games - rather than ex-pros who make them up as they go along.

Good work PW got to admit you've totally out-nonsensed me on this topic without even trying

Anyone who thinks VAR is bad now just remember it could be a whole lot worse and you could have someone like Paul in charge

Devils_Advocate wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 15, 2023 4:23 pm

Good work PW got to admit you've totally out-nonsensed me on this topic without even trying

Anyone who thinks VAR is bad now just remember it could be a whole lot worse and you could have someone like Paul in charge

I though you were someone who understood IT, DA. Sorry if I've got that wrong.

Paul Waine wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 15, 2023 4:44 pm

I though you were someone who understood IT, DA. Sorry if I've got that wrong.

Nope, Im definitely not an IT bod but I do know enough to about both IA and football to know what you're suggesting would be a disaster. Very novel and interesting though

I thought PW made some excellent suggestions

I dunno how practical they are. But I enjoyed reading them

Carwin261 wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 15, 2023 1:23 pm

Apology and Ref dropped after Utd keeper wipes out Wolves player,what happened when Krull wiped out Vydra ? Sweet F___k All.

And the time at Weeds when Ben Mee got flattened by Meslier, unbelievably, a free kick was given to Leeds

HuncoatClaret wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 15, 2023 5:22 pm

And the time at Weeds when Ben Mee got flattened by Meslier, unbelievably, a free kick was given to Leeds

Agree about that one. The decision by ref Rob Jones that day was simply laughable. Had that been now I’m convinced Howard Webb would have dropped him for a few games.

Salisbury stood down yet again in recent months from VAR duties for a round of PL matches ( the 1st after his car crash performance in the Spurs v Brighton game) where he actually ended up reffing us as punishment

ralph8 wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 15, 2023 2:22 pm

I seem to vaguely remember a similar challenge a couple of years back - dead cert pen and sending off.
Was it v Norwich?
Memory is not what it was.

That’s what I said in my op Krull on Vydra.

United of course once again benefit from an unbelievably awful refereeing decision.How surprising.

HuncoatClaret wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 15, 2023 5:22 pm

And the time at Weeds when Ben Mee got flattened by Meslier, unbelievably, a free kick was given to Leeds

I thought of this on Saturday when Everton had a goal disallowed after Leno went into the back of Tarkowski. Very similar.

Retired refs in club hospitality? Not sure what that has got to do with it

As we all Know, VAR just gives the big club two chances to get the decision they want.

The reffing is worse as a result too. In the brentford b Spurs game at the weekend the ref literally ran away from making a decision, knowing full well if he’d ‘missed’ something - VAR would bail him out.

I used to ref myself and seeing a ref visibly ‘abdicate’ and remove himself from the decision making process was both damning and disgusting.

PGMOL appears like a big boys club who have fantastic relationships with the big boys clubs.

A fine line between incompetence and corruption with that United/Wolves decision...

What it needs is a manager to come out and say the referees are deliberately favouring certain clubs.

That would put enormous pressure on the likes of Howard Webb etc.

Guppyspotter wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 15, 2023 10:39 pm

Retired refs in club hospitality? Not sure what that has got to do with it

Really?.... Webb is head of refs now, should really be impartial, and may well be, but not a good look being wined and dined by one of the teams playing that night

Ric_C wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 15, 2023 4:05 pm

THE VAR and refs need to be mic'd up as we need far greater transparency for this to be sustainable.

At the moment it feels like the "checking club badge..." meme is spot on

According to Howard Webb when he was on Talk Sport a weeks back they are not allowed to be mic'd up to the stadium/TV as it goes against IFAB (or FIFA) rules.

There’s a big element of confirmation bias in all of this. Those instances when the ref / VAR get decisions right, or when they go against the big teams, just aren’t as memorable or notable.

Greenmile wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 16, 2023 2:20 pm

There’s a big element of confirmation bias in all of this. Those instances when the ref / VAR get decisions right, or when they go against the big teams, just aren’t as memorable or notable.

Yep and this probably manifests itself in two main forms

1/ Decision against big team = "good, its about time they dont get the decision", Decision against big team = "Referee's are bias/corrupt as big teams always get decision. Net outcome is one set of decisions is ignored and forgotten whist the other is completely focused on

2/ Decisions that go for a against a small team against a big team are more likely to have a greater importance. Example if Burnley get a decision when its 0-0 and City go on to win 3-0 no once cares about the decision as City won easily anyhow. If decision goes against Burnley when its 0-0 and City go on to win 3-0 then everyone points back to how important that decision was at 0-0. In reality its one decision each but again one is just forgotten whilst one is remembered and focused on.

I am sure there is unconscious bias involved in refereeing decisions but this will linked to many different factors although not fully excluding who the team is but it will have nowhere near the impact and relevance football fans like most posting on this kind of forum think

The problem with this decision though is there was absolutely no way you could look at it and see why no penalty was awarded.

With the Tim Krul foul on Vydra apparently they thought he'd touched the ball before making contact with the player but with regards to the incident at Old Trafford you can watch it over and over again without seeing how the referee nor VAR thought it wasn't a penalty.

That's the shocking aspect of it all. I suspect they've kept quiet because those in charge can't justify their decision either.

Devils_Advocate wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 15, 2023 4:49 pm

Nope, Im definitely not an IT bod but I do know enough to about both IA and football to know what you're suggesting would be a disaster. Very novel and interesting though

What is IA ?

FCBurnley wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 16, 2023 3:10 pm

What is IA ?

Artificial Intelligence

Devils_Advocate wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 16, 2023 3:26 pm

Artificial Intelligence

For dyslexics

Devils_Advocate wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 16, 2023 3:26 pm

Artificial Intelligence

Thanks AD

Dyslexics Rule KO