Has the "clear and obvious error" been done away with?

If the ref is being instructed to go to the screen to make a decision because the VAR can't say for certain then it's not a clear and obvious error.

The ref going to the screen tonight was a completed charade. He approached the screen to a still image of the ball in the proximity of Berge’s upper arm (probably near the t shirt line but that is of course completely ambiguous), barely looked at a clip which was did not conclusively show that the ref had made an error, clear and obvious or otherwise, and then ruled the goal out.

What was 100% clear and obvious was that he had decided to rule the goal out based on information received in his earpiece before approaching the monitor. That is a sham.

Just said on another thread, do away with the screen, it’s pointless the decision always goes with what VAR are saying, so cut out the time wasted going to the screen and just let var make the decision

We’ve really made a balls up of this VAR.

Is it just us that are getting it so wrong with the interpretation, because I’m not seeing this drama in other leagues? Certainly not as often, anyway.

We can take comfort from the fact that VAR is shocking for everyone. Onana clattering the Wolves striker and Gary O’Neil getting the yellow was the final straw for me.

I have zero expectation from VAR now.

Game changing decisions are now made at Stockley Park. Shambles.

TsarBomba wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 18, 2023 10:32 pm

I have zero expectation from VAR now.

I have 100% expectation that it'll go against us.

That tonight was an abysmal decision.

Football is roughly where cricket was 15 years ago. They haven't yet grasped that a slowed-down, 2D image is by definition distorting time and space - literally. So they're believing the camera doesn't lie, and creating confusion in their minds by over analysing the obvious because they're terrified of missing something. It's crazy.

I'm really confused about VAR at this point. If I was a referee and a team of people who had seen it from every single angle told me it was a deliberate handball I'd probably buckle and reverse my decision too. I didn't think it was supposed to take the decision away from the referee but that's all it seems to signal when they go and check the screen.

I've seen it multiple times and I still have no idea how you can say its deliberate I really can't. If it's not certain either way I don't see how they can reverse the decision that's been made. VAR is becoming a bit of a joke, stuff like this works well in other sports and even seems to have been better implemented in other competitions, it's just run by Clowns over here. How do they ever get away from the pressure a ref is under to reverse a decision when he's told to go to the screen? Is it not his decision anymore?

The implementation of VAR in the Premier League has basically been a series of bad, reactionary decisions. At first the ref in the VAR booth was making bad decisions without the ref looking at the screen (seemingly largely out of not wanting to contradict the on-field ref unless it was too obvious to go unchanged), so everyone clamoured that the ref had to look at the screen. Then because it was still going wrong with the ref looking, we changed offside, we changed handball, we changed a lot of times what clear and obvious was supposed to mean.

The long and short of it for me is that the referees have done an awful job of it and made the game worse.

Bring in FIFA's automated offside technology and let the ref on the field ref the game. There will still be mistakes but they're a lot easier to stomach when they're from human limitations and not because a team of them between them can't make sensible decisions in five minutes.

dougcollins wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 18, 2023 10:36 pm

I have 100% expectation that it'll go against us.

Absolutely. Having zero expectation just prevents me getting worked up further down the line.

Let’s just say that VAR is STILL a complete shambles!!!

As I've said on another thread, one day an extremely brave referee will be called to a monitor and actually decide to stick with his original decision, because he believes he got it right first time!!!! That would (almost) restore some of my faith in the game!

Jones explained to Bellamy why it was a handball by performing an action with his arm that was absolutely nothing like how the incident occurred.

Absolute farce.

I think the reason it can be called a clear and obvious error is because the ref didn't make an on field decision on the handball. If he'd told VAR that he'd seen the ball brush Berge's arm but didn't think it was deliberate then the goal would probably have stood.

It's not right but I do think it's applied consistently in that respect.

VAR Team should be 3 persons, with rules on decision making

Dark Cloud wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 18, 2023 10:46 pm

As I've said on another thread, one day an extremely brave referee will be called to a monitor and actually decide to stick with his original decision, because he believes he got it right first time!!!! That would (almost) restore some of my faith in the game!

That happened this week at the Villa game (I think).

Tall Paul wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 18, 2023 10:48 pm

I think the reason it can be called a clear and obvious error is because the ref didn't make an on field decision on the handball. If he'd told VAR that he'd seen the ball brush Berge's arm but didn't think it was deliberate then the goal would probably have stood.

It's not right but I do think it's applied consistently in that respect.

That's a bit Kafkaesque. Something ends up being defined as clear and obvious because it's minor enough not to be seen.

The incident was right in front of me as I had a clear view near the Forest fans.

No way was that a handball. Neither player noticed it, neither did the ref. It was a con, pure and simple. What chance Jones, a weak ref at the best of times and this wasn't his best of times, would overrule a VAR when they place the monitor right in front of the baying Brian Clough Stand?

This league is corrupt, because the bosses know that the entire psychology of this favours the bigger teams even if the refs aren't biased as such.

basil6345789 wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 18, 2023 10:51 pm

VAR Team should be 3 persons, with rules on decision making

Always thought a VAR team should include a former player that has some understanding of how a game is played and would have some idea of whether the movement a player makes is intentional or not

123EasyasBFC wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 18, 2023 10:24 pm

Just said on another thread, do away with the screen, it’s pointless the decision always goes with what VAR are saying, so cut out the time wasted going to the screen and just let var make the decision

I’ve always said since VAR came onto the scene - let the refs at Stockly Park make decisions from now on. The referee's job can just be to co-ordinate the game in the stadium, start the game and spray the lines for free kicks and so on… they don't need to make decisions anymore.

Can someone explain why VAR could be used to go back to the Foster incident and a red card issued but not go back an extra ten seconds and award a penalty for holding

CrosspoolClarets wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 18, 2023 10:54 pm

The incident was right in front of me as I had a clear view near the Forest fans.

No way was that a handball. Neither player noticed it, neither did the ref. It was a con, pure and simple. What chance Jones, a weak ref at the best of times and this wasn't his best of times, would overrule a VAR when they place the monitor right in front of the baying Brian Clough Stand?

This league is corrupt, because the bosses know that the entire psychology of this favours the bigger teams even if the refs aren't biased as such.

He is a weak referee, this was evidenced perfectly when he booked Trafford for "time wasting" without even a warning. As the Forest fans were wetting themselves about it, he felt he had to take action, and really enjoyed the cheer when the caution was given. Joker.

wilks_bfc wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 18, 2023 10:54 pm

Always thought a VAR team should include a former player that has some understanding of how a game is played and would have some idea of whether the movement a player makes is intentional or not

That is all the more obvious when you hear Paul merson talking a lot more sense in the studio than an ex "top" referee. They should rule out anybody who thinks that there is an "entitled to go down" rule, or has played for one of the clubs involved or their main rival.

claretgimmer wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 18, 2023 10:59 pm

Can someone explain why VAR could be used to go back to the Foster incident and a red card issued but not go back an extra ten seconds and award a penalty for holding

Quite simple that, because that would have impeded the home side.

This was a referee who inexplicably dissallowed Barnes goal at Leeds then the penalty, only to give Leeds possession of the ball. Awful official.

The game was played for decades and decades prior to this awful VAR nonsense, embracing technology in sport might have benefits in tennis for example, but its killing football.
Its useless, the monitoring is inept, the officials are inept. It kills stone dead any celebration.
I am obviously Burnley biased, but tonight was a travesty. Freeze framing incidents with no context is pathetic.
Football was better without this intervention, miles better.
No good saying it can be definitive proof, it clearly can't.

wilks_bfc wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 18, 2023 10:54 pm

Always thought a VAR team should include a former player that has some understanding of how a game is played and would have some idea of whether the movement a player makes is intentional or not

… and this week in the VAR team is Jordan Rhoads.

mybloodisclaret wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 18, 2023 10:59 pm

He is a weak referee, this was evidenced perfectly when he booked Trafford for "time wasting" without even a warning. As the Forest fans were wetting themselves about it, he felt he had to take action, and really enjoyed the cheer when the caution was given. Joker.

Do we reckon a weak ref leads to VSR being "busy"? A strong chance. They all know who the good ones are. What chance Oliver gets called to the monitor for that handball?

I was, am, and always will be in favour of more tech in football. However, the way it's utilised is haphazard, chaotic, farcical and inconsistent. Most of the deliberations and controversies we have aren't about the tech but are actually about how that tech is implemented.

Tonight being a prime example.

Would not surprise me if Howard Webb offers an apology tomorrow. Too late as has been the case for other apologies made this season. How much is VAR costing? Any enquiries I have made has drawn a blank. Individuals like Webb must be on a huge salary and for what purpose and it will be the PL that funds it when grass roots football could do so much more with those VAR salaries. Also since when have Sky Sports had a direct link to VAR? Throughout the game we had " we are hearing that........" long before any contraversial action was either commented upon by the commentary team or shown on the screen.

The person in VAR shouldn’t say to the ref ‘I think you should go to the screen for a deliberate handball’ they should say to the ref, ‘I’ve seen something that might be interfering with play, why don’t you have a look and see what you think’ rather than already having the decision in the refs head, down to the ref then to make a decision himself, if he doesn’t see anything then original decision stands

VAR has worked in exactly the same way it has al;ways worked in the PL. It has disallowed a goal for no good reason. Its purpose is to find trivial reasons to disallow goals for offences that aren't visible at normal speed even if you see it coming, to disallow goals for offside that were legal until VAR came along (and are still legal in lower divisions), and to make up for it by giving a few random penalties to try and increase the goal tally. (But obviously not at corners, which is why retaliating to being held is an offence while holding is not.)

And another thing - referees ought to be told, because so many of them are too stupid to work it out for themselves, that football is not played in slow motion. They genuinely think that if a player's arm is in one position on frame 1 and it has moved on frame 5, that the player has made a conscious and deliberate decision to move it there. They have no concept that when a player is moving, his arms will be too.

In retrospect, I'm surprised they didn't give a penalty against Cullen for handball. They got one right there.

VAR has resulted in the wrong result tonight.

Without VAR we'd be coming away with 3 deserved points.

It's a sham.

VAR needs to be binned as does the over analysis of every refereeing decision. The game was played for a hell of a long time, and yes we bemoaned the referee on our way home from games, but this charade is completely ruining the game. Mistakes are (or were) a part of the game, managers, players, officials all made them, and still do, but the analysis by god only knows how many pundits has made it a complete and utter farce.

Get it binned, put the laws of the game back to how they were in years before all this TV ********, the game worked and still could, if we stop the shite pundits from rubbishing officials.

The game has become boring, and I've had my fill of it to the degree I'm lost to it at the elite level.

aggi wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 18, 2023 10:53 pm

That's a bit Kafkaesque. Something ends up being defined as clear and obvious because it's minor enough not to be seen.

The clear and obvious error is that the ref clearly and obviously didn't see the ball touch Berge's arm and it clearly and obviously did. Like I said, I dont think it's right but there is some logical consistency in the application of it.

Dark Cloud wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 18, 2023 10:46 pm

As I've said on another thread, one day an extremely brave referee will be called to a monitor and actually decide to stick with his original decision, because he believes he got it right first time!!!! That would (almost) restore some of my faith in the game!

The referee did this on Saturday. Darren England gave Villa a penalty against Palace, VAR sent him to the monitor to over turn it, he stood his ground and said no and gave the penalty.

Who was on VAR last night? Darren England.

Figure that one out.

claretgimmer wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 18, 2023 10:59 pm

Can someone explain why VAR could be used to go back to the Foster incident and a red card issued but not go back an extra ten seconds and award a penalty for holding

I thought that myself. Okay send Foster off but in the same video you can see he was held in the penalty area, so PENALTY!

Dark Cloud wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 18, 2023 10:46 pm

As I've said on another thread, one day an extremely brave referee will be called to a monitor and actually decide to stick with his original decision, because he believes he got it right first time!!!! That would (almost) restore some of my faith in the game!

Didn't Jones do that with the Forest goal?

mybloodisclaret wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 18, 2023 10:59 pm

He is a weak referee, this was evidenced perfectly when he booked Trafford for "time wasting" without even a warning. As the Forest fans were wetting themselves about it, he felt he had to take action, and really enjoyed the cheer when the caution was given. Joker.

Why would he need a warning? The rules on time wasting are known.

dsr wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 18, 2023 11:34 pm

And another thing - referees ought to be told, because so many of them are too stupid to work it out for themselves, that football is not played in slow motion. They genuinely think that if a player's arm is in one position on frame 1 and it has moved on frame 5, that the player has made a conscious and deliberate decision to move it there. They have no concept that when a player is moving, his arms will be too.

In retrospect, I'm surprised they didn't give a penalty against Cullen for handball. They got one right there.

The Cullen handball incidents are the ones that really boil my p...

How can Gibbs White appeal for that handball? He's two yards away and smashes the ball into Cullen's arm. This is the modern game though. VAR has created a situation where if a player appeals for 100 ridiculous decisions he's likely to get at least 1 reviewed and therefore might con a penalty out of the officials.

It's just cheating and we need to get with the program. For example, Foster shouldn't retaliate to being grabbed in the area, he should throw himself on the floor and shout at the referee to review it. It really is pathetic though and not exactly sporting!

Hipper wrote: ↑

Tue Sep 19, 2023 12:14 pm

Why would he need a warning? The rules on time wasting are known.

It was a definite yellow and was bound to happen after the Heckingbottom comments at the weekend. What I will say though is Turner took just a long over restarting the game half way through the first half but no yellow card was given. Double standards.

Hipper wrote: ↑

Tue Sep 19, 2023 12:12 pm

Didn't Jones do that with the Forest goal?

No. He didn't look at the forest goal.

He was told in his ear that it was a deliberate handball, going to the monitor was all for show.

claretandy wrote: ↑

Tue Sep 19, 2023 12:53 pm

He was told in his ear that it was a deliberate handball, going to the monitor was all for show.

I wonder if they will release the audio for this one like they did with a few lately. I doubt it.

Clear and obvious should be decided within a 15 second timeframe, if it takes longer than that it no longer can be deemed clear and obvious and the decision remains with the ref.

It's really really simple to implement

claretandy wrote: ↑

Tue Sep 19, 2023 12:53 pm

He was told in his ear that it was a deliberate handball, going to the monitor was all for show.

I also believe this is largely how these things work. The VAR guy doesn't simply say "it might be an idea for you to take another look". I think he also says "because it looks to me like...." and he is therefore basically giving his judgement having had the opportunity to view it several times. The on field ref is then bound to be swayed by this.
Ultimately, (and I've said this all along since VAR first reared it's head) I initially thought it would be a great innovation and would take the blatantly awful mistakes occasionally made by refs out of the game. It hasn't. It's simply allowed a wider circle of officials to give their view on an incident which everyone sees and interprets differently. It's solved nothing and just gets people infuriated. There's a reason why goal line technology clearly works. It's the same reason that Hawkeye works at tennis matches and DRS works for LBWs at cricket. Because the human element has been removed and technology makes the decision and that's great. VAR doesn't do this and human influence and error is still intrinsic in the system. So therefore what's the point?

Referees are being hung out to dry by VAR.

In nearly all contested cases the referee has made a clear decision based on his judgement of the action and in this case Jones AWARDED THE GOAL. As far as I know he doesn’t ask for VAR to confirm it, but it seems now that the VAR team always step in to question ALL goalscoring action.

The spotlight is now on the referee and the match halted while the VAR team analyse and inspect the incident from each and every angle. Eventually the referee is invited to reconsider by the “anonymous” VAR team and the charade of looking at the monitor takes place - which both sets of fans know means only one outcome.

The referee (who is always the villain of the piece) is then obliged to eat humble pie and declare that unfortunately his “honest” judgment was flawed and his decision overruled.

Burnley Express reporter Matt Scrafton sums up the VAR effect on the game last night. A good read in my opinion.

When was the last time a VAR decision went in our favour?

Has any Ref ever gone to the screen and gone against Stockley Park advice ? I have never seen that happen. Also I note that the comms can now hear the conversation between VAR control room and ref. Why is this not broadcast live ? It’s great to hear the ref in rugby and the reviews in Cricket