The biggest waste of money ever..

125 billion ? ., we have a train that goes to London already I thought in just over 2 hours

We need it, our current rail system has mainline tracks with freight trains using it, HS2 will be solely used by high speed passenger trains and nothing else!
Our current rail infrastructure is from the Victorian era, quite embarrassing for the country that invented railways!

GIGANTIC waste of money!

Blame red tape and dithering for the huge costs, it should have been built about 30 years ago but previous governments didn’t bother with it.

What’s your thoughts on cross rail/ Elizabeth line in London by the way?

Cross rail: HOW MUCH ?!!

18.6 billion for crossrail

Crossrail has very fast modern trains that are capable of carrying much more capacity than existing London Underground trains and is the most advanced metropolitan transport system in the world

Tw@ wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 23, 2023 11:13 pm

Crossrail has very fast modern trains that are capable of carrying much more capacity than existing London Underground trains and is the most advanced metropolitan transport system in the world

and currently has one of the highest cancellation rates of any operator

Tw@ wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 23, 2023 10:55 pm

We need it, our current rail system has mainline tracks with freight trains using it, HS2 will be solely used by high speed passenger trains and nothing else!
Our current rail infrastructure is from the Victorian era, quite embarrassing for the country that invented railways!

Hs2,s business case was based largely on business traffic , covid and the adoption of zoom/teams on line meetings has made the need for a trip to the smoke for a face to face meeting virtually obsolete. The existing track could have a lot more capacity squeezed out of it with digital signalling and more passing loops at a vastly lower cost

Roger1960 wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 23, 2023 11:52 pm

and currently has one of the highest cancellation rates of any operator

Don’t know where you have got that from as I’m sure you are wrong

Roger1960 wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 23, 2023 11:56 pm

Hs2,s business case was based largely on business traffic , covid and the adoption of zoom/teams on line meetings has made the need for a trip to the smoke for a face to face meeting virtually obsolete. The existing track could have a lot more capacity squeezed out of it with digital signalling and more passing loops at a vastly lower cost

Also wrong

Will be axed to allow tax reductions for the rich

Tw@ wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 24, 2023 12:09 am

Don’t know where you have got that from as I’m sure you are wrong

Trains every 4 minutes have the most delays on the network? I really think you need to know what you you are talking about before making a statement like that!
How often do you use the Elizabeth line by the way?

Major parts of it will be scrapped now, if not all.
All about face-saving from here.

The above post is for Roger1960 to peruse

ElectroClaret wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 24, 2023 12:24 am

Major parts of it will be scrapped now, if not all.
All about face-saving from here.

It won’t be scrapped, it needs to be increased

Northern Powerhouse. Patronising twaddle.

As @BeardedGenius said on X... the next time we decide to build something connecting London to the North... we should start building it in the North.

The transport system in London is probably one of the best in the world, the connections from London to the north of the country are at best adequate but for an advanced country then quite poor!
We need fast rail between major cities that should be at high speeds on dedicated tracks at over 200mph not make do and mend on old systems that have to accommodate slow freight trains and others.
We are light years behind other countries with something we invented!

Thought from day one that it’s been the biggest waist of money. Just think what could have been done to the NHS if that money had gone there.

beddie wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 24, 2023 7:21 am

Thought from day one that it’s been the biggest waist of money. Just think what could have been done to the NHS if that money had gone there.

You think that money would have been spent on the NHS?

RicardoMontalban wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 24, 2023 7:32 am

You think that money would have been spent on the NHS?

Probably not, hence “ just think” and even a good chunk of the spend so far would have seen a much needed massive injection that would benefit us all rather than this planned monstrosity that’s ripping up our beautiful land.

beddie wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 24, 2023 7:37 am

Probably not, hence “ just think” and even a good chunk of the spend so far would have seen a much needed massive injection that would benefit us all rather than this planned monstrosity that’s ripping up our beautiful land.

This country’s transport infrastructure is in dire need of investment, especially here in the north. It’s just whether that investment was best made in HS2 or in some other manner that’s in question. I’m leaning towards the view that HS2 is a bit of a vanity project gone rogue.

Imagining that capital investment is going to be spent in some other, entirely unrelated sector, seems a fairly fruitless exercise. It’s not how it works. It’s like imagining the T2T improvements funding could be spent on social care or something. Not happening.

And sadly infrastructure upgrade on the scale required is not without its impact on the countryside. Not making the investment isn’t an option, or at least shouldn’t be.

Tw@ wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 24, 2023 12:21 am

Trains every 4 minutes have the most delays on the network? I really think you need to know what you you are talking about before making a statement like that!
How often do you use the Elizabeth line by the way?

I submitt the following to show my facts are right
The UK's newest railway line had more cancellations than any other, new Office of Rail and Road figures show.
A total of 9.1% of services on the Elizabeth line did not run in the four weeks to 19 August, followed by CrossCountry at 7.5%.
Overall cancellations rose to 3.9% from 3.3% in the previous four weeks. Last week, it was revealed almost half of trains arrived at least a minute late.
Transport for London (TfL) apologised for a "number of recent issues".
It comes just months after the line, which links Reading and Essex via central London, fully opened in May.

Personally think the concept of running heavy steel wheeled trains on high maintenance steel track laid on slowly rotting wooden sleepers is an antiquated old dying technology. Can't believe that in 100/200 years time we'll still be adopting the Victorian way.

We have the technology and skills to change to something radically different...but alas not the bravery or long tem vision we, as a country, once had.

So yes, a big waste of money.

Tw@ wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 24, 2023 12:12 am

Also wrong

House of Commons library hs2 briefing note
Most economic benefit of hs2 is derived from business users but many of those forecast trips no longer occur post covid technology changes .
Hs2 has a cost benefit of barely more than 1 to 1 which would never be approved now
Until well towards the end of this century it’s going to end at Old Oak Common in west London meaning a swap to the underground to get in to London centre . Door to door for people in Burnley who would still have to get a northern train to Victoria cross Manchester to Piccadilly take hs2 to old oak get an underground to their destination in London the saving in time if anything will be negligible

The economics of HS2
The economic appraisal for HS2 captures the costs, benefits and changes in revenues for the whole of the rail network – not just those associated with the HS2 infrastructure. The latest business case estimates net transport benefits of £74.6 billion to be delivered from the full Y-network. Most of the benefits are delivered through journey time savings. Although most users of HS2 would be leisure passengers, around two thirds of the quantified transport benefits are forecast to accrue to business users, with 40% of all benefits accrued to passengers starting their journeys from London.

I was not in favour of HS2 but once you start it you have to finish.

It should connect manchester to london.

The absolute disgrace was that the manchester - burnley - Leeds lines were not upgraded in the same way. It shouldn't take 2 hours to get to leeds or 4 hours to get to Newcastle.

I suspect HS2 will be scrapped north of Birmingham 1 because the costs post Ukrainian war inflation are out of control and 2 to give Sunak something to fund tax cuts before the election as all he seems intent on doing is winning that at all costs.
I never felt HS2 was a sensible idea when the train services between the northern cities and into and out of them are so poor and much more in need of improvement,look at Burnley still only 1 train per hour to the two northern capitals Manchester and Leeds how many years after the Tod curve reopened

Driving home last night listening to five live and a rail expert on there said HS2 would have the same effect as a brand new 18 lane M6. He was pretty convinced it would revolutionise the way freight is moved around the country.

I always knew that Sunak would 5hit on us. He even said he would. Remember this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xegB9J-mn1A

At least Johnson, for all his faults, understood that the whole country had to be levelled up, rather than 'deprived' places like Tunbridge Wells. I will never forgive the Tories for inflicting Truss and Sunak on us.

Covid .:: Brexit .:Net zero … HS2 is not affordable now .

The full electrification of the east coast mine line cost £671m in today’s money, roughly £0.48m per track mile. A huge engineering undertaking, which took 7 years to complete and was about 8 weeks late and 3.8% over budget. Amongst other things it required raising the height of 127 bridges all whilst the line was in use.

By comparison HS2 is estimated to cost £346m per mile and is years over due and massively over-budget. Something has happened since the mid 80s but I can’t quite think what it is.

Not too fussed about improving links with London, but I’d love to be able to go west from Leeds for work on something other than a glorified diesel trundler.

I can often get to London on the train quicker than I can to Liverpool and it’s more than twice the distance. That’s assuming they don’t cancel the Liverpool service.

Agree. Improve locally.

Opening Clitheroe - hellifield.- skipton would be nice. Budget estimate - a tenner. But no it’s in the north innit.

Billy Balfour wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 24, 2023 9:07 am

I always knew that Sunak would 5hit on us. He even said he would. Remember this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xegB9J-mn1A

At least Johnson, for all his faults, understood that the whole country had to be levelled up, rather than 'deprived' places like Tunbridge Wells. I will never forgive the Tories for inflicting Truss and Sunak on us.

Plenty of stupid people will.

Maybe you should thank Corbin supporters for inflicting Johnson upon us

Or those that ran David Miliband out because he thought having realistic ambitions was not the "socialist" way?

I'm not sure it makes sense in economic terms but it's the only way to increase capacity on the rail network so just build the thing. It's desperately needed and if it costs loads more so be it.

It’s not even HST2 the whole countries infrastructure as a whole is crumbling because most things were privatised and therefore their only goal was of these firms was to produce profit for shareholders.

We’ve been on a long slow decline for decades.

northernpowerhouse wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 24, 2023 12:38 pm

I'm not sure it makes sense in economic terms but it's the only way to increase capacity on the rail network so just build the thing. It's desperately needed and if it costs loads more so be it.

Some common sense at last. It's needed for future generations. The Victorians knew how to build for OUR future.

The bit of HS2 that wasn't needed is the bit that's practically built. The bit of infrastructure desperately needed is the bit yet to be built, but which an awful lot of cost has been sunk into.

To not build the additional line capacity from Birmingham to, and into Manchester- in the process creating the backbone of a new Transpennine line- would be madness, and at the very least those who.would scrap it need to explain how else they plan on upgrading west-east links given the current bottleneck through Manchester. If HS2 isn't the answer, something else has to be.

HS2 may well be out of control cost wise. The answer is not to admit the country cannot control costs on major infrastructure. It's to do it better. If thr government can't do that it should move over and allow someone competent to have a crack.

Transport per capita in the United Kingdom in 2021/22, by region.

Good to see we come top. Yeah, you wish.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/113 ... in-the-uk/

Shaggy wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 24, 2023 1:12 pm

It’s not even HST2 the whole countries infrastructure as a whole is crumbling because most things were privatised and therefore their only goal was of these firms was to produce profit for shareholders.

We’ve been on a long slow decline for decades.

It's probably a first but I absolutely agree with you.
We have a government that haven't actually governed for a long, long time other than reduce this, leave that and cancel the other.
No investment, no innovation, no hope.

There were never any questions over Crossrail. Money was chucked at that for decades. Was all about connecting the south to London. Was over budget, delayed years but it got done in the end. It's a great piece of engineering work and shows what we can do when we want.

HS2 needs finishing as does HS3 connecting Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds, York. Get it done.

dushanbe wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 24, 2023 9:44 am

The full electrification of the east coast mine line cost £671m in today’s money, roughly £0.48m per track mile. A huge engineering undertaking, which took 7 years to complete and was about 8 weeks late and 3.8% over budget. Amongst other things it required raising the height of 127 bridges all whilst the line was in use.

By comparison HS2 is estimated to cost £346m per mile and is years over due and massively over-budget. Something has happened since the mid 80s but I can’t quite think what it is.

Hardly a fair comparison. ECML electrification - basic layout of track and infrastructure already existing. HST2 - purchase of land and complete construction including levelling, tunnels, stations etc etc.. Probably many people/businesses need relocating.

One question for you knowledgeable rail people. Why do we need signalling these days - meaning physical signalling and all the cabling etc.. Can't signal information be sent down the rails or use boxes on the track so that the signals - green/red lights, speed restrictions etc. can be seen in the cab?

Hipper wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 24, 2023 7:45 pm

Hardly a fair comparison. ECML electrification - basic layout of track and infrastructure already existing. HST2 - purchase of land and complete construction including levelling, tunnels, stations etc etc.. Probably many people/businesses need relocating.

One question for you knowledgeable rail people. Why do we need signalling these days - meaning physical signalling and all the cabling etc.. Can't signal information be sent down the rails or use boxes on the track so that the signals - green/red lights, speed restrictions etc. can be seen in the cab?

There is a European signaling system which is used in some part of the network (Wales I think) that sends messages directly to the driver in the cab.

I think the plan is to move over to this system eventually buy I guess it takes time (and money).

Over 1000 archaeologists and scientists are on the HS2 payroll digging at various sites with a toothpick so no shock really how much it’s costing ..

steve1264b wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 24, 2023 8:17 am

It shouldn't take 2 hours to get to leeds or 4 hours to get to Newcastle.

It doesnt

Carlos the Great wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 24, 2023 8:29 pm

Over 1000 archaeologists and scientists are on the HS2 payroll digging at various sites with a toothpick so no shock really how much it’s costing ..

You really think the archaeological surveys are a significant part of the cost of HS2?