Hand ball
Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2023 4:54 pm
Hand ball then goal , how does that work ?
Deemed not deliberate
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Hand ball
https://www.uptheclarets.com/messageboard/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=71982
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Re: Hand ball
Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2023 4:58 pm
Re: Hand ball
Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2023 5:30 pm
What’s the difference between the first Newcastle goal today that was given, and the penalty that was awarded to Luton yesterday? Both for me are ball to hand and therefore legal, but one given one not.
Re: Hand ball
Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2023 5:31 pm
They would argue the Wolves defender had his arm in an unnatural position, but yeah agree as it hit him first surely ball to hand.gandhisflipflop wrote: ↑Sun Sep 24, 2023 5:30 pmWhat’s the difference between the first Newcastle goal today that was given, and the penalty that was awarded to Luton yesterday? Both for me are ball to hand and therefore legal, but one given one not.
Re: Hand ball
Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2023 5:33 pm
It’s an absolute farce. Gordon deemed not handball but Berge’s against Forest was. Neither looked deliberate
Re: Hand ball
Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2023 5:35 pm
How about if it hits a players hand it's handball. Too many subjective opinions by incompetent officials
Re: Hand ball
Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2023 5:37 pm
They make it up as they go along. Im still fuming over our disallowed goal at Forest, yet Flash for Newcastle was still given.
Re: Hand ball
Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2023 5:39 pm
All depends on the club
Re: Hand ball
Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2023 6:13 pm
Surely people don’t want every hand ball decision to be called incorrectly just because one of ours was?
Re: Hand ball
Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2023 6:28 pm
I’m not a statistics expert, but would it make any difference? They would all just be the opposite of what they should be, given when they shouldn’t be, not given when the should. At least it would be consistent and balance our one out.
Re: Hand ball
Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2023 6:34 pm
Re: Hand ball
Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2023 6:36 pm
Same VAR bloke I think. England.TommyPicks wrote: ↑Sun Sep 24, 2023 5:33 pmIt’s an absolute farce. Gordon deemed not handball but Berge’s against Forest was. Neither looked deliberate
So in our game he sent the ref to the screen, but didn't bother with this one. The accidental handball actually kept the ball in play, so not insignificant.
Re: Hand ball
Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2023 6:48 pm
You think Anthony Gordon’s was deliberate handball?
Re: Hand ball
Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2023 6:55 pm
Re: Hand ball
Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2023 6:59 pm
But by the laws of the game it’s simply not handball.Burnley1989 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 24, 2023 6:55 pmNo, but he controlled the ball and kept it in play, I can’t even be arsed arguing that one, it’s accidental but its 100% handball
Re: Hand ball
Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2023 7:02 pm
Re: Hand ball
Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2023 7:06 pm
I know. He got the Berge decision wrong. But that’s my point, just because he got that wrong I wouldn’t want him to get every handball decision wrong - which some people oddly do.nil_desperandum wrote: ↑Sun Sep 24, 2023 7:02 pmBut (IMO and most other people's) neither was Berge's, and yet it was the same guy on VAR. He should be permanently removed from this duty.
Re: Hand ball
Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2023 7:07 pm
Berges decision is the one they will learn from as an error and wont give again
Re: Hand ball
Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2023 7:09 pm
Yes, I understand your point, but if he's been told that he made the wrong decision against us, then surely he should have been given a "period of reflection" rather than being given VAR duties again in the same week. It does rather rub salt in our wounds when he can (apparently) be so inconsistent within a week. (I'm just glad it wasn't a Sheff Utd goal today - that would have hurt.)
Re: Hand ball
Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2023 7:12 pm
Re: Hand ball
Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2023 7:53 pm
It’s just crazy now. If you catch the ball on your chest you need to put your shoulder up to steady it. It’s not like you’re punching the sucker which is clearly deliberate handball. Bonkers.
Re: Hand ball
Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2023 10:48 pm
Shay Given has just said on MOTD2 "some controversy about the handball but because he didn't score it wasn't disallowed"
Hmmmm
Hmmmm
Re: Hand ball
Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2023 11:13 pm
I clocked that and wondered what's the difference, it still resulted in a goal, which should never have stood. I also thought the 3rd Newcastle goal wasn't a free kick in the build up, if it was a free kick it should have been the other way imo, the Newcastle player was charging in like a maniac, all the sheff utd player did was clear the ball through his legs, what's he supposed to do just get out the waySomethingfishy wrote: ↑Sun Sep 24, 2023 10:48 pmShay Given has just said on MOTD2 "some controversy about the handball but because he didn't score it wasn't disallowed"
Hmmmm
Re: Hand ball
Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2023 11:58 pm
I wonder how many penalties would be given per game if all that was needed was to hit the ball at about waist height at the defender?yorkshireclaret wrote: ↑Sun Sep 24, 2023 5:35 pmHow about if it hits a players hand it's handball. Too many subjective opinions by incompetent officials
Re: Hand ball
Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2023 12:33 am
I'd now go as far as saying that the offside law is easier to understand than the handball one.
Once again though, remember when people said that bringing in VAR would sort these problems out?
Once again though, remember when people said that bringing in VAR would sort these problems out?
Re: Hand ball
Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2023 2:03 am
it's taken about 6 weeks for my sheer enjoyment of last season and no VAR to be knocked out of my system. I was 100% for VAR as an idea but now I'd torpedo Stockley Park because they have absolutely no idea what they are doing.fidelcastro wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 12:33 amI'd now go as far as saying that the offside law is easier to understand than the handball one.
Once again though, remember when people said that bringing in VAR would sort these problems out?
Re: Hand ball
Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2023 8:00 am
Every time we are in the prem the refs have to learn from a decision that cost us points. If only they could get them right for us. We are 2 points down this season because of referee decisions and let’s hope that doesn’t cost us later. Much like the Barnes handball at Spurs could have cost us in 22.
Re: Hand ball
Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2023 9:02 am
With VAR you have the same usless pillocks who refereed till relieved of the job .
Re: Hand ball
Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2023 9:05 am
It did cost us. We got relegated!Hibsclaret wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 8:00 amMuch like the Barnes handball at Spurs could have cost us in 22.
Re: Hand ball
Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2023 9:17 am
If you sidelined every referee every week who made a mistake who would replace them even if they are on VAR duties, it's not just 1 person mistakes are plentiful it's pretty much every weekend you are faced with iffy contentious decisions in pretty much every game, it wouldn't work in theory unless you could call upon a pool of people to come in & do a better job & the officials that we do have are supposed to be the best in the game & have all the recognised qualifications the position requires.nil_desperandum wrote: ↑Sun Sep 24, 2023 7:09 pmYes, I understand your point, but if he's been told that he made the wrong decision against us, then surely he should have been given a "period of reflection" rather than being given VAR duties again in the same week. It does rather rub salt in our wounds when he can (apparently) be so inconsistent within a week. (I'm just glad it wasn't a Sheff Utd goal today - that would have hurt.)
Re: Hand ball
Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2023 9:44 am
We went down by 3 points
Re: Hand ball
Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2023 11:28 am
And the studies that season proved that without the interference of VAR, we would have stopped up.
Re: Hand ball
Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2023 2:39 pm
I was talking about the Barnes handball that cost us 1 point. I know we got relegated. I wasn’t talking about any studies that may have been done I was talking about 1 incident relating to hand ball which was the title of the thread. We get royally shafted by the refs of that there is no doubt.
Re: Hand ball
Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2023 3:21 pm
There was a game shortly after, can't remember against whom, where one of their defenders handled the ball in as close a carbon copy situation as you will ever seeHibsclaret wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 2:39 pmI was talking about the Barnes handball that cost us 1 point. I know we got relegated. I wasn’t talking about any studies that may have been done I was talking about 1 incident relating to hand ball which was the title of the thread. We get royally shafted by the refs of that there is no doubt.
Decision - no handball.
It's not so much the decisions that irk, it's the inconsistency of their application
Re: Hand ball
Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2023 3:26 pm
If the player who scores handles it (intentionally or accidentally) it is disallowed. If it's earlier on in the move then the handball has to be deliberate/unnatural body position.Somethingfishy wrote: ↑Sun Sep 24, 2023 10:48 pmShay Given has just said on MOTD2 "some controversy about the handball but because he didn't score it wasn't disallowed"
Hmmmm
Foster's was disallowed as the VAR official told the ref that Berge had intentionally handled it.
Re: Hand ball
Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2023 3:37 pm
Unfortunately some people still don't get that bitaggi wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 3:26 pmIf the player who scores handles it (intentionally or accidentally) it is disallowed. If it's earlier on in the move then the handball has to be deliberate/unnatural body position.
Foster's was disallowed as the VAR official told the ref that Berge had intentionally handled it.
Re: Hand ball
Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2023 8:12 pm
Allegedly.aggi wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 3:26 pmIf the player who scores handles it (intentionally or accidentally) it is disallowed. If it's earlier on in the move then the handball has to be deliberate/unnatural body position.
Foster's was disallowed as the VAR official told the ref that Berge had intentionally handled it.
Re: Hand ball
Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2023 8:31 pm
Coventry goal looked like deliberate hand ball!
Re: Hand ball
Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2023 8:10 am
When you kept wrongly claiming that there is no deliberate/accidental ruling with handball despite several people trying the help you grasp and understand something I presume you saw some football on Sunday ?, look forward to your explanation of why the Newcastle goal stood after Gordon clearly keeps the ball in play with his hand.
I am sure you won't have seen it, but if you have look forward to your latest amusing offering
Re: Hand ball
Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2023 8:16 am
Please can you post where the VAR official explained the reasoning to the referee that he was disallowing that goal for intentional handball.claretonthecoast1882 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 26, 2023 8:10 amWhen you kept wrongly claiming that there is no deliberate/accidental ruling with handball despite several people trying the help you grasp and understand something I presume you saw some football on Sunday ?, look forward to your explanation of why the Newcastle goal stood after Gordon clearly keeps the ball in play with his hand.
I am sure you won't have seen it, but if you have look forward to your latest amusing offering
Re: Hand ball
Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2023 8:17 am
As I thought.
Re: Hand ball
Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2023 8:23 am
I want you to back up what are stating but you appear to be struggling when something should be easy, if the VAR official instructed the referee to disallow the goal for that reason I want you to support it, it's not unreasonable the onus is on you to prove your point. I'm maintaining the infringment was based upon handball alone regardless of intentions & it was a discretionary call.
Re: Hand ball
Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2023 8:43 am
That's what the commentators said (they can hear what the var is saying)
Re: Hand ball
Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2023 8:44 am
Don't do it, I made the mistake of feeding the troll.claretandy wrote: ↑Tue Sep 26, 2023 8:43 amThat's what the commentators said (they can hear what the var is saying)
Re: Hand ball
Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2023 2:53 pm
Appears Jermain Jenas is in a spot of bother because he didn't like the ref awarding a penalty to Arsenal when the Spurs defender stopped the ball going in the net with his hand. A couple of months ago Jenas was the lead in a "protect our game" campaign for more respect for the referees.
Re: Hand ball
Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2023 3:05 pm
I've no idea how anyone can judge what a player was thinking when the ball comes into contact with their hand/arm. Were they thinking I'll block the ball with their chest - but got it wrong? Were they thinking I'll lose the ball if I don't use my hand? What happens if the player is thinking I need to use my hand, but misses? Is it the intention to use that hand that should be the offence?
The rule should be very simple: any contact with the ball by a player's hand/arm should be an offence. VAR should only be used to establish the fact of contact. It can't determine what was in the player's mind at the time. It shouldn't matter how close the player was to the ball when it is struck in their direction, it shouldn't matter how many deflections it has taken and perhaps has changed direction. The bounce of the ball doesn't impact on any other decisions/exceptions to the general rules of football. If an attacker shoots towards the goal, but the shot is missing before it deflects of another player and crosses the goal line it is still a goal. If it hits another player before it goes out of play the corner or throw in is awarded against the team that the ball last touched, there's no different decision because the player may not have had the intention to touch it.
The rule should be very simple: any contact with the ball by a player's hand/arm should be an offence. VAR should only be used to establish the fact of contact. It can't determine what was in the player's mind at the time. It shouldn't matter how close the player was to the ball when it is struck in their direction, it shouldn't matter how many deflections it has taken and perhaps has changed direction. The bounce of the ball doesn't impact on any other decisions/exceptions to the general rules of football. If an attacker shoots towards the goal, but the shot is missing before it deflects of another player and crosses the goal line it is still a goal. If it hits another player before it goes out of play the corner or throw in is awarded against the team that the ball last touched, there's no different decision because the player may not have had the intention to touch it.
Re: Hand ball
Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2023 3:21 pm
This could create a great new game of blasting the ball at defenders at point blank range in the penalty area to try and clip a hand or arm whilst defenders try and run around with their hands behind their backs.Paul Waine wrote: ↑Tue Sep 26, 2023 3:05 pmI've no idea how anyone can judge what a player was thinking when the ball comes into contact with their hand/arm. Were they thinking I'll block the ball with their chest - but got it wrong? Were they thinking I'll lose the ball if I don't use my hand? What happens if the player is thinking I need to use my hand, but misses? Is it the intention to use that hand that should be the offence?
The rule should be very simple: any contact with the ball by a player's hand/arm should be an offence. VAR should only be used to establish the fact of contact. It can't determine what was in the player's mind at the time. It shouldn't matter how close the player was to the ball when it is struck in their direction, it shouldn't matter how many deflections it has taken and perhaps has changed direction. The bounce of the ball doesn't impact on any other decisions/exceptions to the general rules of football. If an attacker shoots towards the goal, but the shot is missing before it deflects of another player and crosses the goal line it is still a goal. If it hits another player before it goes out of play the corner or throw in is awarded against the team that the ball last touched, there's no different decision because the player may not have had the intention to touch it.
Re: Hand ball
Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2023 3:36 pm
Not to mention the excitement of waiting around for VAR to decide whether the ball touched a fingertip or brushed a sleeve.
Re: Hand ball
Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2023 6:01 pm
When a goal has been scored or for a handball penalty claim not given/given, VAR/ref conversation should be along the lines of:
VAR : ball has hit defenders hand/arm - did you see it?
Ref : yes, I saw it and considered it too close/not deliberate/hit other part of body first
Stick with on-field decision
OR
Ref : no, I didn't see it - please show me in real time on monitor. If necessary, I will ask for slow motion/different angles and make my decision.
Ref makes decision from what he sees - no directing by VAR.
Could maybe be applied to other scenarios, point being VAR does not re-referee the game.
VAR : ball has hit defenders hand/arm - did you see it?
Ref : yes, I saw it and considered it too close/not deliberate/hit other part of body first
Stick with on-field decision
OR
Ref : no, I didn't see it - please show me in real time on monitor. If necessary, I will ask for slow motion/different angles and make my decision.
Ref makes decision from what he sees - no directing by VAR.
Could maybe be applied to other scenarios, point being VAR does not re-referee the game.
Re: Hand ball
Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2023 7:17 pm
As discussed elsewhere, the punishment for a ball hitting a defenders arm in the penalty area in an innocuous fashion is totally disproportionate to the offence. The whole law needs scrapping and simplifying.