• what are our tactics?

Posted: **Sat Oct 21, 2023 5:31 pm**

We're clearly no longer a passing team, we were out passed by one of the most direct teams in the league today and that has been the case most matches.

We're not direct, we don't press, we don't go down the wings and whip crosses in or slip balls through the middle.

What is the plan?

Posted: **Sat Oct 21, 2023 5:32 pm**

Pass back to Traff , kick it into touch at half way, rinse and repeat

Posted: **Sat Oct 21, 2023 5:32 pm**

I think Kompany probably knows, or at least I hope he does, but I’m pretty certain the players don’t.

Posted: **Sat Oct 21, 2023 5:32 pm**

The plan is to get 120 meeting and trading sessions in to the players then we'll become Barcelona and move up the league.
Can you not see it?

Posted: **Sat Oct 21, 2023 5:33 pm**

Dyche got slated but the football this season has been far worse

Posted: **Sat Oct 21, 2023 5:34 pm**

I'm genuinely excited to see which poster will post the same thing the most times on different threads this evening. Go for it, lads.

Posted: **Sat Oct 21, 2023 5:35 pm**

bumba wrote: ↑
Sat Oct 21, 2023 5:33 pm
Dyche got slated but the football this season has been far worse

We are not “that bad” just yet but we are close. Like a passing backwards version of that.

Posted: **Sat Oct 21, 2023 5:36 pm**

We are mixing up our play more I’d say but I think the biggest issue is a lack of cohesion across the board. There’s a lot of talk about last seasons 11 being better etc but that team in the first 10 games in the Champ would also have been slaughtered in these games. Guess my point is that I’m hoping things ‘click’ a lot faster than they appear to be as I still back the manager and his tactics. I will say Constantly changing the starting 11 doesn’t help.

Posted: **Sat Oct 21, 2023 5:37 pm**

We have tactics?

Posted: **Sat Oct 21, 2023 5:38 pm**

What are our tactics? That question implies we have tactics,only tactics we have is
1 Don’t pick Muric,Cork,Zaroury ,or Larsen in the starting 11
2 If we’re losing bring on a winger
3 If we’re still losing bring on another winger
4 If we’re being overrun in midfield bring on another winger.

Posted: **Sat Oct 21, 2023 5:39 pm**

Superjohnnyfrancis wrote: ↑
Sat Oct 21, 2023 5:35 pm
We are not “that bad” just yet but we are close. Like a passing backwards version of that.

At least with Dyche we'd lump it in the box and try create something

Least we was organised it was dull at the end but this is so draining to watch, I'll admit I've never liked watching your man city or arsenal back in the day I'd rather watch a man Utd under Fergie or a Liverpool under klopp.
Possession football done slow is boring

Posted: **Sat Oct 21, 2023 5:40 pm**

Superjohnnyfrancis wrote: ↑
Sat Oct 21, 2023 5:32 pm
Pass back to Traff , kick it into touch at half way, rinse and repeat

At least some fans realise that making a few reactionary saves doesn’t make Trafford a good keeper.

Posted: **Sat Oct 21, 2023 5:41 pm**

bumba wrote: ↑
Sat Oct 21, 2023 5:39 pm
At least with Dyche we'd lump it in the box and try create something
Least we was organised it was dull at the end but this is so draining to watch, I'll admit I've never liked watching your man city or arsenal back in the day I'd rather watch a man Utd under Fergie or a Liverpool under klopp.
Possession football done slow is boring

I don’t miss westwoods punts into the stratosphere they were more depressing than today. Anyhow we can’t play any worse so that’s a bonus. Onwards and upwards!

Posted: **Sat Oct 21, 2023 5:42 pm**

If there are 100 replies to this thread, there won't be any agreeing apart from "we don't have a plan".

VK has gone backwards this season, no doubt, but I still can't believe he would send the team out without a plan and to be so abject.

I can only conclude the plan is so complicated the players just haven't the foggiest how to go about implementing it.

This magical 100th coaching session needs marking with white smoke so we all know when we can expect the team to know what the hell they're doing.

Posted: **Sat Oct 21, 2023 5:42 pm**

Carwin261 wrote: ↑
Sat Oct 21, 2023 5:40 pm
At least some fans realise that making a few reactionary saves doesn’t make Trafford a good keeper.

Up to Vinny now to front up his mistake and quickly

Posted: **Sat Oct 21, 2023 5:46 pm**

We're still trying to be a passing team, we're just not good enough to do it in the PL where teams are more physical and press us rather than sit back.

Watch the first half today and we were clearly trying to pass it out from the back, it just didn't work at all.

Posted: **Sat Oct 21, 2023 5:51 pm**

Superjohnnyfrancis wrote: ↑
Sat Oct 21, 2023 5:41 pm
I don’t miss westwoods punts into the stratosphere they were more depressing than today. Anyhow we can’t play any worse so that’s a bonus. Onwards and upwards!

I've thought that every week

Posted: **Sat Oct 21, 2023 5:52 pm**

bumba wrote: ↑
Sat Oct 21, 2023 5:51 pm
I've thought that every week

We’re improving just in the wrong direction

Posted: **Sat Oct 21, 2023 6:06 pm**

As General Melchett would say, doing what we did in the previous 8 defeats is the last thing the opposition will expect......

Whateer the tactics have been lately, they haven't worked. Yet we haven't tried to do anything different. Changing the odd player is pointless, unless we come up with a different solution.

Posted: **Sat Oct 21, 2023 6:11 pm**

Start with 4/5 floaty interchangeable attacking mids/wingers

Concede, replace them with a few more, rinse repeat.

No structure, no plan b. Crap

We are crying out for a Muric long ball to Tella in behind. Absolutely crying out for it.

Posted: **Sat Oct 21, 2023 6:13 pm**

CoolClaret wrote: ↑
Sat Oct 21, 2023 6:11 pm
Start with 4/5 floaty interchangeable attacking mids/wingers

Concede, replace them with a few more, rinse repeat.

No structure, no plan b. Crap

We are crying out for a Muric long ball to Tella in behind. Absolutely crying out for it.

Gonna die on this Muric long ball to Tella hill aren’t you

In all seriousness I can think of 4/5 occasions (WBA away and Wigan away spring to mind) it actually had a meaningful impact last season and that was against opponents significantly worse. I do take your point but I think you are overstating it quite a bit. Way bigger issues (midfield and tactics).

Posted: **Sat Oct 21, 2023 6:16 pm**

We pass out from the back to invite the opposition to press, but we struggle to pass and receive under pressure.

Nobody wants to win headers though, so best not launch it.

Posted: **Sat Oct 21, 2023 6:20 pm**

RVclaret wrote: ↑
Sat Oct 21, 2023 6:13 pm
Gonna die on this Muric long ball to Tella hill aren’t you

In all seriousness I can think of 4/5 occasions (WBA away and Wigan away spring to mind) it actually had a meaningful impact last season and that was against opponents significantly worse. I do take your point but I think you are overstating it quite a bit. Way bigger issues (midfield and tactics).

Yeah I certainly am - also off the top of my head Hull, Boro, Watford to an extent.

Definitely more than 4/5 games - and a lot of them teams were playing with a lower block; we just managed to catch them out on an odd attack.

The threat in behind definitely helped our play, teams had to respect it.

Posted: **Sat Oct 21, 2023 6:23 pm**

I thought today, we nearly got it right for some of the time, but our younger players are tactically naive when things aren't going to plan.
1st half we were stumped when up against Brentfords hard press and more lively, aggressive play.
They couldn't keep that pace up, and didn't, but although we started the 2nd half well we didn't defend well enough and got suckered on a counter.
It's a long season and we can yet come good.

Posted: **Sat Oct 21, 2023 6:23 pm**

Superjohnnyfrancis wrote: ↑
Sat Oct 21, 2023 5:41 pm
I don’t miss westwoods punts into the stratosphere they were more depressing than today. Anyhow we can’t play any worse so that’s a bonus. Onwards and upwards!

Those Westwood punts with his back to goal, shuddering at the thought

Posted: **Sat Oct 21, 2023 6:37 pm**

bumba wrote: ↑
Sat Oct 21, 2023 5:33 pm
Dyche got slated but the football this season has been far worse

And Dyche didn't have 90 million plus to spend.

Posted: **Sat Oct 21, 2023 6:49 pm**

Stayingup wrote: ↑
Sat Oct 21, 2023 6:37 pm
And Dyche didn't have 90 million plus to spend.

Defour £8m
Brady £13m
Cork £10m
Hendrick £10m
Pope £1m
Gray £9m
Guddy £1m
Right back £1m
Tarks £3m
Chris wood £15m
Vydra £10m
Westwood £5m
Ward £500k?
Brownhill £7m

£93.5m

can’t remember his other buys so maybe more than those.

I get what you mean but saying he had no spend is misleading. This looks a lot more value than we have on the pitch at present.

This was before stupidly high fees though.

Posted: **Sat Oct 21, 2023 6:52 pm**

Hope.
Pray.
Wicca Rituals.
Human Sacrifices.

Posted: **Sat Oct 21, 2023 6:56 pm**

Our tactics in the championship till Feb were more cautious than our tactics this season. Cork and Cullen allowing the rest to play more free.
Cork isn’t the long term answer but surely he’s still able to play one game a week

Posted: **Sat Oct 21, 2023 6:56 pm**

Not sure, but whatever they are we had an equal share of possession today.

Posted: **Sat Oct 21, 2023 6:58 pm**

Superjohnnyfrancis wrote: ↑
Sat Oct 21, 2023 6:49 pm
Defour £8m
Brady £13m
Cork £10m
Hendrick £10m
Pope £1m
Gray £9m
Guddy £1m
Right back £1m
Tarks £3m
Chris wood £15m
Vydra £10m
Westwood £5m
Ward £500k?
Brownhill £7m

£93.5m

can’t remember his other buys so maybe more than those.

I get what you mean but saying he had no spend is misleading. This looks a lot more value than we have on the pitch at present.

This was before stupidly high fees though.

This, and I'm guessing some serious wages.
People need to understand that we have built this squad on what is now a shoestring by EPL standards.

Posted: **Sat Oct 21, 2023 7:01 pm**

Not sure about tactics.....but I used to love those little liquorice tictacs, are they still around, haven't seen them in ages.

Posted: **Sat Oct 21, 2023 7:49 pm**

Superjohnnyfrancis wrote: ↑
Sat Oct 21, 2023 6:49 pm
Defour £8m
Brady £13m
Cork £10m
Hendrick £10m
Pope £1m
Gray £9m
Guddy £1m
Right back £1m
Tarks £3m
Chris wood £15m
Vydra £10m
Westwood £5m
Ward £500k?
Brownhill £7m

£93.5m

can’t remember his other buys so maybe more than those.

I get what you mean but saying he had no spend is misleading. This looks a lot more value than we have on the pitch at present.

This was before stupidly high fees though.

I don't remember signing all those in the same summer

Posted: **Sat Oct 21, 2023 7:50 pm**

bumba wrote: ↑
Sat Oct 21, 2023 7:49 pm
I don't remember signing all those in the same summer

I know what you mean but he did have “some” spend.

Posted: **Sat Oct 21, 2023 7:52 pm**

bumba wrote: ↑
Sat Oct 21, 2023 7:49 pm
I don't remember signing all those in the same summer

That's because we didn't need to, we hadn't just dismantled a PL squad.

Posted: **Sat Oct 21, 2023 7:52 pm**

He never got a summer like VK had especially when VK got a clean slate to bring his own squad last summer.
The summer window and players pushed aside just looks more and more baffling as it's gone that horribly wrong it's as though VK is now being too stubborn to bring them back in

Posted: **Sat Oct 21, 2023 8:01 pm**

It seems to me at the moment it's to concede as many goals as possible.

Posted: **Sat Oct 21, 2023 8:16 pm**

Last season when we started a bit ropey it was clear there was a gameplan, an aim, an identity, a way to win games. It was clearer that things would come together.

This season? I have absolutely no idea what we're trying to be, and worryingly I'm not so sure Kompany or the players do. Do we keep the ball? Do we play with wingers? Counter attack? Direct?

Answers on a one hundred million pound postcard please.

Posted: **Sat Oct 21, 2023 9:39 pm**

We're committed to playing out from the back, but we're not good enough to do it now, anyone good at pressing has us beat. Taylor's worse than Maatsen at it, Trafford's not as confident as Muric. Roberts is struggling in possession at PL level, as is O'Shea. Cullen's our only good CM for receiving the ball playing out, but if he's marked we've no good options. It's not Brownhill's game and Berge and Ramsey have been a liability coming deep. Another issue there is that it's not like Roberts, Taylor, Brownhill or Berge are of an age where they'll quickly develop into good players for playing it out under pressure.
We could use Berge and Brownhill to play direct though, Berge good in the air, Brownhill good for a second ball, Foster has looked decent in the air (but was dominated today).
When were playing a good pressing side (Brentford definitely are that, especially at home) accept we don't have players to play out from the back and go direct.

Posted: **Sat Oct 21, 2023 9:40 pm**

Superjohnnyfrancis wrote: ↑
Sat Oct 21, 2023 6:49 pm
Defour £8m
Brady £13m
Cork £10m
Hendrick £10m
Pope £1m
Gray £9m
Guddy £1m
Right back £1m
Tarks £3m
Chris wood £15m
Vydra £10m
Westwood £5m
Ward £500k?
Brownhill £7m

£93.5m

can’t remember his other buys so maybe more than those.

I get what you mean but saying he had no spend is misleading. This looks a lot more value than we have on the pitch at present.

This was before stupidly high fees though.

Over how many years?

Posted: **Sat Oct 21, 2023 9:43 pm**

boatshed bill wrote: ↑
Sat Oct 21, 2023 7:52 pm
That's because we didn't need to, we hadn't just dismantled a PL squad.

A PL squad Dyche assembled on peanuts

Posted: **Sat Oct 21, 2023 10:14 pm**

northernpowerhouse wrote: ↑
Sat Oct 21, 2023 5:46 pm
We're still trying to be a passing team, we're just not good enough to do it in the PL where teams are more physical and press us rather than sit back.

Watch the first half today and we were clearly trying to pass it out from the back, it just didn't work at all.

This in a nutshell.

Posted: **Sat Oct 21, 2023 10:31 pm**

Last season you can imagine the below average champ manager saying ‘ we need to mark Cullen cos he’s the play maker’ so when Muric played it to Cullen all the numpties would run towards him he would lay it off to either of our fullback and we’d have taken 3 of their players out of the game (simples) Prem managers are slightly more street wise.

Posted: **Sat Oct 21, 2023 11:12 pm**

Agree about trying to be a passing team. But Trafford’s pass destination is nothing like Muric. It is invariably very short. And none of our back four are accomplished passers, THB was far better than any. So that is a big problem.

The other tactical problem is how we lose our shape. That second goal when we were on top is a case in point. OK, we lost the ball, but Berge despite being one of only two recognised central midfielders was jogging back into the shot when Mbeumo was hitting the net, they were passing it around our box for 5 seconds prior to that. Tresor had sprinted all the way back and was in our box yet the central midfielder was nowhere to be seen. When Cullen had to go to left back to help the back two at the start of that Brentford attack there was a chasm probably 30 yards wide outside our box in central areas. This isn’t just Berge not being a defensive midfielder, it is training, tactics, shape. We are meant to do drills where if one player goes, the other sits. It isn’t working whatever we are trying.

I suspect both these issues are down to personnel, partly in the window, which we cannot solve for now, and partly selection errors. VK distrusts our experience, yet whenever they play we do better. He has to have Brownhill in midfield, Jay upfront as a sub for the last 20. Messengo is an odd omission. Berge can only play in a three and has just played a knackering 180 minutes for Norway. Tresor is being picked out of position, right not left. As is Al Dakhil at LCB. As is Berge. As is Amdouni.

Teams like Man Utd who I’ve watched tonight play like this with gaps everywhere, but they have elite players to rescue situations and / or not give away the ball. Lower sides don’t.

The entire post I’ve written above comes down to manager choices. I’m a massive fan. I think he’ll get there. But very few elite players make it at top level management. Lampard, fail. Gerrard, fail. Keane, fail. Neville(s), fail. Others like Bruce don’t get to the top. It isn’t a given and he is more in danger of his prior knowledge being a burden than a strength because he seems to be asking players to do what they cannot.

Posted: **Sun Oct 22, 2023 6:11 am**

In my opinion, we are still playing with a passing and possession based approach but the defence and goalkeeper are absolutely killing us.

Last season, when Muric was pressed it was actually brilliant news as he was usually capable of picking out the spare man and we would have an advantage straight away. Trafford quite clearly isn’t capable of doing that and more often than not lumps it forward and it comes straight back.

The times when he isn’t under pressure and passes it out to his back line are just as bad. There is only Roberts who is capable of taking it and playing it with confidence (apart from today obviously!). Taylor - Obviously can’t do it or he would have played more last season.
Al-Dakhil - Consistently takes one too many touches then plays it backwards or sideways creating huge pressure leading to a punt up the pitch.
O’Shea/Delcroix - Neither seem capable to doing what we were doing last season.

We need Muric back in the nets ASAP. We also need to pray for a Beyer recovery as he is more than capable of receiving the ball and doing something with it.

Posted: **Sun Oct 22, 2023 9:22 am**

Don’t know what our Tactics are but I certainly know that in 4 games we have tried Cullen and berge and then Amdouni acting as a 10 just isn’t working

Posted: **Sun Oct 22, 2023 9:23 am**

123EasyasBFC wrote: ↑
Sun Oct 22, 2023 9:22 am
Don’t know what our Tactics are but I certainly know that in 4 games we have tried Cullen and berge and then Amdouni acting as a 10 just isn’t working

Haven’t played that once

Posted: **Sun Oct 22, 2023 9:30 am**

Superjohnnyfrancis wrote: ↑
Sat Oct 21, 2023 5:35 pm
We are not “that bad” just yet but we are close. Like a passing backwards version of that.

This is worse than anything under Dyche

Posted: **Sun Oct 22, 2023 9:45 am**

Big difference from last season is lack of width and all our play condensed into the central areas.

There isn’t a pure wing back down the left, either underlapping or overlapping. There isn’t a winger on the touch line on the other side and there isn’t an inverted full back either. We have gone straight to a flat back 4 with the ‘wing backs’ not getting forward often enough and the wingers are far too narrow. Not signing top quality full backs has proven to be very costly and bizarre and it must be addressed in Jan. until then, we need the wingers to play wider and we also need the central midfield to stay compact. At times yesterday there was literally zero central midfielders as Cullen was on a hiding to nothing sat as a defensive mid with berge miles up the pitch. The team needs balance.

Posted: **Sun Oct 22, 2023 9:48 am**

Newcastleclaret93 wrote: ↑
Sun Oct 22, 2023 9:30 am
This is worse than anything under Dyche

No, no it’s not. Sometimes I think some of our fans are goldfish when it comes to memories.

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